Technical exercise and advice requested

[ramseytheii]

I understand that intervals must be considered within the context of the melodic line.  This is actually what I brought them up for.  From B to F# at the top is the largest interval in this entire passage (P5) -- I think that is musically significant.  And, I will bring this up because this is one of the specific spots you brought up regarding musical tension, and that being reflected in the hand/motion of the hand.

Hmm... I hear it slightly different; in that, I don't hear the intervals per se as important.  The F# is the high point, but it is more a coloristic passage than a melodic passage.  He wrote mainly fourths and fifths, and if you play it veloce with the hairpins, those larger intervals will give a sense of space in the fluttering.  It is kind of hard to explain, but remember I am just reacting to what is in my ear.

I don't think it is necessarily important that a fifth tops off the figuration, but you are right that the high point itself is important, and you're justified by the score.  I think here we can safely distinguish between melodic passages and coloristic passages; this falls into the latter.

Also about tension: I would suggest you think in larger bits, especially in Rachmaninoff.  The tension isn't in one interval, but in the entire up-down motion of the figuration.  Unfortunately, when you posted the videos, somehow I wasn't able to see them on my computer (just got a blank screen).  So maybe I am mis-interpreting what you are saying; but I think more emphasis should be put on the larger picture.

Walter Ramsey

[m1469]

The Hanon/Czerny business is not that simple,

Best, M

I think that for a lot of people, it actually is exactly "that simple" -- and, that is precisely the problem.

[henry_v]

Yes, of course !  -- Rachmaninov came to me in a dream and told me all about it.  That's really all I can say because he actually made me promise not to tell anybody and I am already breaking that promise, to some degree  .

Oh, well, yes I developed this image as a result of how Marik suggested I approach the passage in my thinking -- and as a result of what you and others were telling me it still needed dynamically.  However, I don't agree with your second sentence, I don't feel any struggling at all, actually, and I think that if you are saying that you can hear it as such, you are making it up or psyched out because you know what my fingering is and you *want* to hear it a certain way .   

Well, first of all, yeah, don't be impressed with the smiley.  I only put that there to cushion my huge ego with a little bit o' charm .

Other than the need for more dynamic shaping and perhaps a quicker tempo and a more defined character, I don't hear any true defects at all -- at least not in basic mechanics.
 

HEY !   How did you know that
 

Yes, I completely agree and that is precisely why I fully advocate my secret weapon fingering ... hee hee.
 

For as much as I write and talk, I actually have a very difficult time finding words sometimes (just be glad you don't know me in person  ).  I still plan to get back to that stuff ... I just ...

hmmm... well, thanks for your concern.  Actually, after your's and walter's and marik's previous posts, I completely broke down and cried and quit teaching, and quit piano and quit music.  Of course, the next day I woke up and the piano beckoned me as though it were a very new thing, and I felt like learning how to play the piano.  I still had to work and be there for my students ... so, you know, life went on.  But anyway, I deeply reconsidered everything and realized that what I am doing still makes perfect sense to me.  I cried because I realized that I am in *WAY* over my head, and I felt embarrassed and like such a fool about that at first ... but then I realized that of course I am in way over my head.  OF COURSE !! Life itself is bluddy over my head.  We are all in way over our heads.  I realized I guess I better just get used to that.  And, really, would I want it any other way ?  No, not with my current concept of life.

Well, to be very honest  , I am happy to discuss the logic if you are really asking .

Okay .

Well, it's  obvious that this topic has become more than only a question about fingering and therefore I think discussing a fingering for the sake of fingering or motion for the sake of motion is pointless to me.
Some members have offered different solutions (besides the original fingering ), just take it or not. More important, there are arguments and reasons why some fingerings are better than others. And these have been shown. It's not all subjective.
I never would have picked in your recording, but you aksed for it specifically (to give an opinion on your recording), so I pointed out some things. You say that you don't hear any true defects. Well, for me, the arbitrary way of shaping dynamics, rhythm, lack of speed, tone quality etc. as a result of lack of control (and it is in 99% because of lack of control) is a defect, because lack of control is a defect.

However, to not only give some vague criticism about your motions, fingering, and recording without any reference and without showing you how it does work, so to leave you in a kind of state you described, here is my take on approaching the piano (technically speaking):

There are no hard things on the piano (at least physically). A lot of things can be broken down into doing a lot of easy things.
The easiest thing is to play one note (although many don't have even a clue here, but that is partly for other reasons). Anyone can do that, and anyone can control it. It's not difficult. However, there are may ways of pressing even a single key. Anyway, consider at least the instrument you play (the piano, it's not a harpsichord). Therefore you press the key not only with your finger, but also with the weight of your hand. The tone will be richer and stronger (not necessarily louder). Also, be aware that you go deep into the keys, i.e. to the bottom. The position of your fingers should be normal, relaxed (you can write books on position of the fingers, but that's more for special effects regarding color, tone etc.)

When playing more notes, everything changes. Not because there are more notes, but because we must connect them somehow, regardless the articulation, rhythm etc.. So, I always take as a example playing C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C, with fingering 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-1.
Immediately after pressing the first C (as described above), you must release all of the energy. All your muscles must relax. This gives you time to listen to your sound, what is actually the most important aspect of it. Be aware that you truly relax, i.e. the fingers should naturally stay always in contact with the keys, especially the one that is going to take the next key. So your index-finger should be in contact with D. This is also very important.
Now, there are several ways of listening. In any case, you must not listen only to the C, but hear the connection between C and D. So when the C sounds, you must make a choice how to play the D in relation to the C. This connection has to be very fluid and round. Only then, you are able to create a singing quality of tone on the piano, there is no other way.
So when you're hear this connection in the most cantabile way, that means that your motions must be very similar to that. So, speaking about the hands action from C to D, you can't go straight to the next note. So in order to sound cantabile, you must make a kind of circle motion to go to the D (even if the interval is so small, that you can play it only with your fingers). The best way to do it, in this case, is to slant your hand slightly to the right. But be carefull, it is not just a movement from left to the right, the movement has to be a kind of an arch. When you play the whole passage like this (from C back to C), if you do it right, you are making a complete circle or ellips kind of movement with your hand. Then you will notice that your movement is continuous and it will never stop. In other words, there will be no tension.
Moreover, this way (I think it's very hard to completely understand it form writing, maybe somebody else can explain?) you will have the complete control about how you want to sound and it your technique will not only be complete but it also will never sound empty, since your are using a lot of your imagination.

I think every true virtuoso (past, today, future) must be aware in one or another way of at least a few things written above. It's the 'secret', in any case, of some of the most virtuoso pianists.
At least, a lot of -if not all- passages should be playable this way, if one  does it rightly.

Of course, someone has to show and explain this to you and correct you when doing wrong, and even then it will not be sure that you understand it completely (it took me more than a year), so patience is also very important.

Having said this, I don't feel like fitting in the category  'piano maffia' who, when you want to know what the actual "rules" are that they are talking about (so as not to break them too prematurely  ), they will then disappear as quickly as they came (having told you some magical story to further confuse you, and having given you no answer whatsoever) in order to teach you a lesson in thinking for yourself ... not "intellectualizing" mind you, just thinking for yourself  (but don't worry, you will do this wrong, too -- and that will be pointed out as well).

Still frustrated?    

 

But maybe this is only a kind of weird/schizophrenic thought of me   


 

[m1469]

[jlh]

Nice!  Was there no appropriate emoticon for this expression?

 

[m1469]

Nice!  Was there no appropriate emoticon for this expression?

 

Oh, what expression would "this" be exactly ?

[opus10no2]

Oo, ambig.

[m1469]

.

[opus10no2]

I don't care. 

How fragrant, and how quickly a smile can devour.

[jlh]

I have decided that I look like a drag queen in that photo -- I had just had a makeup makeover at the Mall, and I decided to see what happened when I took some pictures.  They don't all look like that, but that one does.  It's definitely a different "side" of me, I think.  And, it was actually in response to good ol' henry (I wonder how he's doing and what he's up to these days.  Haven't heard from him in, well, decades) -- somehow that look said everything I needed it to say.  I guess it's my masculine, flaming gay side coming through.

I don't think you look like a drag queen in that pic.  You look beautiful.  I was commenting on it because you're right: that does seem to say everything in one picture.  That's why I asked about the emoticon thinger...

 

[m1469]

That's why I asked about the emoticon thinger...

 

Yeah, well, I was feeling pretty moody and my ego wanted to enjoy you describing what my expression was.  -- it's okay though, I wasn't mad at you 

[henry_v]

  And, it was actually in response to good ol' henry (I wonder how he's doing and what he's up to these days.  Haven't heard from him in, well, decades)

Okay, m1469, you wanna know how I feel?

Here we go  :

I sincerely feel very sad for a person whose existence (as a pianist, teacher) completely loses its equilibrium just because of a discussion about a (very obvious) fingering.

I feel even more sad for a person, who, when getting valuable advises from others, calls them 'piano maffia' and all sort of other things, saying that their answers are not answers at all etc.

In short, I feel that you are completely obsessive with this, ending with posting strange pictures and puzzling comments on other threads.


Besides that, I am feeling just fine   

[m1469]

Henry the fifth, you are a spiceya meataballa.

First, let me say how genuinely pleased and complimented I am that you apparently read so much of me -- thank you .  Also, I am impressed that you have even adopted some of my own use of language.

Secondly, whatever I am (obsessive, etc), I figure I am in great company here .

Thirdly, I have not called this advice that I have been given in this thread *anything* at all, actually.  As you know, you have taken something that I said in another thread and decided to put it here.  Really, that particular comment that you have talked about, is a melding of years worth of stuff that I don't care to go into.  I will say though, that the reference to the "piano mafia" was from a thread that I started a few years ago, under a different persona  .  Much of it, though, was not directed toward any of the personas within this thread (which is why it wasn't in this thread  ).

And, yes, sometimes my entire equilibrium does indeed get thrown off -- in some way I consider this a very good thing, actually.  If you don't understand that, I can't help you there.  But, it's never about one particular thing, but more like a straw that broke the camel's back.  Generally, though, I think I do a pretty good job with what people throw at me and have thrown at me in life and in my "education"  -- "you" really have *no* idea (and I think that "people" think that I don't have any idea, either  -- and, I don't, of course  ).

I am feeling just fine   

Happy to know it.

Now, I am going shopping  .

Cheers !

[m19834]

Oh, man.  Well, I ran across this thread last night, after being reminded of it recently.  I want to apologize to all of you whom tried in earnest to help me.  I behaved rather poorly in this thread and there have been a myriad of reasons on the surface, but what it all actually boils down to is my desire to play the piano, coupled with a deep confusion (and frustration) about it.  My desire to play is something that I can't even begin to explain and it is so all-consuming sometimes, that it can seemingly work against me if it is not being properly handled.  All I have really ever wanted is some kind of stable learning grounds where I can really grow and develop, and most of my life has not been like that, making me quite defensive.  Though some people tried in earnest to help me here, I was obviously not altogether receptive and on top of that, it was frustrating that there is only so much that can be communicated and learned through an online forum (though it is surprisingly a lot).

I would assume that nobody has lost sleep over this thread or so, but all the same, I wish to apologize for the sake of the community that has perhaps been here for a few years now, and especially for a few individual members in particular, and especially Marik .

Thanks,
Karli/M.

[thalbergmad]

Well, i was catching up on my sleep, but not now.

You confuse me slightly, as although you have never said, you come across as a reasonably accomplished pianist that strangely asks a lot of questions that in the main, cannot be answered by people that have never met you or seen you play.

I also cannot see why you are apologising for anything as you are one of the more profound posters.

Thal

[m19834]

Well, as it may have been detected, I wasn't truly seeking technical advices.  I was more like taking myself for a kind of test-drive ... hee hee ... with a bunch of people whom I respect and trust to some degree.  I had to find out some things about myself and at the time, this was one of the only ways, so there I launched myself.  It's just, I read through the thread and though some parts were a bit humurous to myself ... hee hee... I also could see that I was getting in the way of what I really wanted as well as in the way of other people who were good-intentioned.

Whatever my "accomplishments" are as of today, I never feel they are what I would like.  And, my particular path has never been what I have envied in others.  Sometimes I just feel so left out of a particular kind of richness that I detect in other people's musical upbringing, yet I have always felt that I somehow had to compare and survive in the same world.  And, aside from those things, to a large degree I have felt quite stuck in the past several years for a number of pretty good reasons, though not good enough to make me satisfied with just being stuck.

hmmm ... I don't know if that really says anything.

[thalbergmad]

hmmm ... I don't know if that really says anything.

Well, not really.

You speak many words but reveal little.

Thal

[m19834]

Well, despite whatever my musical past, despite whatever anybody else's musical upbringing, for sure I am not actually satisfied with being "reasonably accomplished" though that is not an inaccurate assessment.

In any respect, I suppose different people could read my apology with different eyes, espeically if they have actually seen and heard me play (and I am not saying that in a "down on myself" kind of a way, just in acknowledging that I would like to get better).  But, it doesn't need to be a huge deal, it was just something that kind of got me thinking.