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op 10 no 4 !!! (Read 7608 times)

Offline piano89

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op 10 no 4 !!!
« on: July 17, 2007, 11:34:56 PM »
 Listen the best performance  op 10 no 4- Chopin ?
What do you thing ?


piano sheet music of Etude


Offline piano32

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 11:38:30 PM »
It is the best, even if it's too fast. But so exciting.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 11:39:05 PM »
Not quite fast enough for my tastes actually.
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Offline jlh

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 11:42:07 PM »
This one's been on the forum several times already...
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
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  L   ______/             \
LOL "”””””””\         [ ] \
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Offline mikey6

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 11:44:27 PM »
Not quite fast enough for my tastes actually.
Poss this one's more to your taste
&mode=related&search=

and this one's just funny
&mode=related&search=
Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
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Offline piano89

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 11:46:17 PM »
Poss this one's more to your taste
&mode=related&search=

and this one's just funny
&mode=related&search=

hehehehehe

Offline jinfiesto

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #6 on: July 22, 2007, 08:26:01 AM »
Wow... I'm not really fond of Richter as a pianist... Fabulous technique, but rumor has it he was kind of an ass though. Oh well. I think Murray Perahia's version is better.

Offline hodi

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #7 on: July 22, 2007, 04:41:45 PM »
Wow... I'm not really fond of Richter as a pianist... Fabulous technique, but rumor has it he was kind of an ass though. Oh well. I think Murray Perahia's version is better.

perahia is playing it without any fire or fury... his touch is too "light" for this piece
IMO

Offline amelialw

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #8 on: July 22, 2007, 06:02:27 PM »
rachmaninoff's is amazing!
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline joachimf

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #9 on: July 22, 2007, 06:38:18 PM »
That Richter video is fast-forwarded. See how the napkin lands on the grand when he throws it in the beginning, before playing. The napkin doesn't act like that because of great technique, it's simply against the laws of physics:P
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Offline zheer

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #10 on: July 22, 2007, 06:50:08 PM »
That Richter video is fast-forwarded.

  No he was phenomenal.
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Offline elevateme_returns

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #11 on: July 22, 2007, 07:29:40 PM »
perahia is playing it without any fire or fury... his touch is too "light" for this piece
IMO

richter's is too fast. you can't hear the notes!! wheres the excitement in that??

i would agree with jinfiesto, perahia's is better in my opinion because you can hear every note clearly, and all the phrasing/dynamics etc are there. at richter's speed, as amazing as it is, it's just a blur. which takes the interest out for me. i used to think wow wow amazing fast! but now it's about the music for me, not the speed.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #12 on: July 22, 2007, 07:35:04 PM »
I seen Perahia play it live a few months ago  :o  :o  :o  :o   :o

The best etude I've ever ever heard! was astonishing! If I hadn't actually been there I would not have believed it

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #13 on: July 22, 2007, 07:43:42 PM »
richter's is too fast. you can't hear the notes!! wheres the excitement in that??

i would agree with jinfiesto, perahia's is better in my opinion because you can hear every note clearly, and all the phrasing/dynamics etc are there. at richter's speed, as amazing as it is, it's just a blur. which takes the interest out for me. i used to think wow wow amazing fast! but now it's about the music for me, not the speed.


Either his playing is too fast or your ears are too slow.

The notes are there to be heard, comfort yourself with the fact that most people, like you, don't have the listening skills.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #14 on: July 22, 2007, 07:46:31 PM »
I don't think your ears are fine enough to realise that notes are missing. It's also slightly out of tune, so you musn't have the finset ears becasue you have not mentioned that  :P

Offline counterpoint

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #15 on: July 22, 2007, 07:49:19 PM »

The notes are there to be heard, comfort yourself with the fact that most people, like you, don't have the listening skills.

Wow, this will start a new competition: who can hear how many notes per second   :D  ;D

But then, I can hear, that many fast-players have a very bad sound...  8)
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Offline jlh

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #16 on: July 22, 2007, 07:53:33 PM »
  No he was phenomenal.

Yes, he was phenominal!  However, that doesn't prove the video is not sped up. 
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "”””””””\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 08:04:41 PM »
I don't think your ears are fine enough to realise that notes are missing. It's also slightly out of tune, so you musn't have the finset ears becasue you have not mentioned that  :P

Oh, he's human, I know.

Do you prefer Ingolf Wunder's interpretation?

Same speed, all the notes, more even, and incredible clarity.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 08:06:52 PM »
hahahahahahahahah

comparing Wunder to Richter!! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha It's like comparing Monet to a grade C  GCSE Art student!!

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 08:09:03 PM »
I'd advise you to listen first.

His performance is technically superior :)
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Offline soliloquy

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 08:43:34 PM »
I'd advise you to listen first.

His performance is technically superior :)

His performance is different.  Richter was an old-school pianist who had a lot more reserve for how he played; Wunder is a young kid trying to make a name for himself with some pyrotechnics.  It's really impossible to say whose technique is best.  Could Wunder outplay Richter in the 10-4?  No.  And that recording is one of the few truly solely technical feats Richter left behind.

But randomly I don't like Richter or Wunder.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 09:26:20 PM »
It's really impossible to say whose technique is best.  Could Wunder outplay Richter in the 10-4?  No. 

You're only proving your own stupidity here.

If a pianist plays a piece at the same tempo as another, and one plays more evenly, only one conclusion could be arrived at.

With hope you'll arrive there, albeit slowly. :)
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Offline counterpoint

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 09:39:09 PM »
What about Freddy Kempf?
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #23 on: July 22, 2007, 09:56:08 PM »
Good tech, wikid zpirit.
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Offline counterpoint

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #24 on: July 22, 2007, 10:00:37 PM »
Good tech, wikid zpirit.

Could you please explain, what you want to say with wicked spirit?

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Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #25 on: July 22, 2007, 10:18:58 PM »
His technique isn't much above average concert pianist level, but his emotion while performing comes through with more passion than many.

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Offline counterpoint

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #26 on: July 22, 2007, 10:33:54 PM »
His technique isn't much above average concert pianist level, but his emotion while performing comes through with more passion than many.

Ah, I understand, wicked was meant in a positive way - that's good   :D

But the thing with the average concert pianist level -

You think Richter or Wunder have a better technique than Kempf...?  Never!

If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline m

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #27 on: July 22, 2007, 11:06:01 PM »

His performance is technically superior :)

Cannot judge as I did not hear Wunder with this etude.
In any case, even if hypothetically Wunder's Op.10/4 is technically superior, how it affects the fact that Richter was the musician of the century, and Wunder is just some kid who can move his fingers fast?

Offline jakev2.0

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #28 on: July 22, 2007, 11:25:41 PM »
Agree with marik 100%

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 07:00:26 AM »
op10no2 you are so blind to what technique actually is. Has tone production never occured to you as the cheif aim of technique? Speed is stupid. I've witnessed at least 20 people in person play the etude faster than richter, and are they better pianists? NO!! Richters technique was amazing and you are just showing your own ignorance and stupidy in saying otherwise. When will you ever learn that speed is not technique? Any idiot can move fast...look at Wunder!! And all these other pianists you rave about, and they are all nobodys. Little flashes in the pan, with people like hailing them as virtuoso.

Offline counterpoint

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #30 on: July 23, 2007, 07:21:15 AM »
Okay, I found a page with recordings of Wunder - there is among others op.10-4.
It is frightening fast.
And I'm very surprised (in a positive way) about the sound quality  :o :o :o

Wunder plays way too fast for my taste, but he plays very good indeed.

http://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings_english.htm
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Offline joachimf

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #31 on: July 23, 2007, 09:37:59 AM »
richter's is too fast. you can't hear the notes!! wheres the excitement in that??

...at richter's speed, as amazing as it is, it's just a blur. which takes the interest out for me. i used to think wow wow amazing fast! but now it's about the music for me, not the speed.

I would think that the video, in its original speed, wouldn't feel like a blur. I think that the blurred effect is there because it's an old recording w/ bad sound and secondly, because, as with a lot of other b/w movies they had to speed them up in order to get fluent motion on picture.

zheer: I'm not saying he wasn't phenomenal. Indeed he was! And I think that his phrasings, dynamics, etc. etc. would be very clear and simply fantastic if the video is played in the original tempo. It's not speeded up much, though, just a noch. Well, IMHO it's speeded up:P
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Offline joachimf

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #32 on: July 23, 2007, 09:39:55 AM »
I didn't like Wunder's version of it too much. He doesn't play it to my taste at all. But he has brilliant technique! Absolutely amazing...
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #33 on: July 23, 2007, 09:55:47 AM »
musician of the century

You said it. :) Who mentioned music?

Wunder has faster fingers than Richter, that's it.

Faster fingers facilitate faster and more even passagework, they do not imply musical genius.
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Offline counterpoint

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #34 on: July 23, 2007, 10:09:38 AM »
the fact that Richter was the musician of the century

Was he?
Not for me. There are quite a few candidates for this title (Horowitz, Rubinstein, Cortot, Schnabel, Gilels, Argerich - to name just a few) but Richter is not on my list  8)
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #35 on: July 23, 2007, 10:12:25 AM »
op10no2 you are so blind to what technique actually is. Has tone production never occured to you as the cheif aim of technique? Speed is stupid. I've witnessed at least 20 people in person play the etude faster than richter, and are they better pianists? NO!! Richters technique was amazing and you are just showing your own ignorance and stupidy in saying otherwise. When will you ever learn that speed is not technique? Any idiot can move fast...look at Wunder!! And all these other pianists you rave about, and they are all nobodys. Little flashes in the pan, with people like hailing them as virtuoso.

I'm aware of the purely musical elements of technique, but while I value them very much - I do not discuss them because it reduces discussions to infantile rants like yours.

Speed is ALOT more than you realise.

Without finger speed, someone wouldn't be able to articulate with staccato, legato, etc.

Wow, someone has the ability to articulate and dynamically shape a passage a 10BPM!

That is EASY, technique only becomes a challenge when time restrictions are imposed.

If we had 5 secods to prepare for every note and chord, it'd be quiteeasy

When we have 0.03 of a second to prepare, we have to involve much more technique.

Anyway, back to thepoint, speed and evenness are OBJECTIVELY calculable - a computer can analyze it, and figure out the pianist with the greater dexterity.
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #36 on: July 23, 2007, 10:13:52 AM »
Was he?
Not for me. There are quite a few candidates for this title (Horowitz, Rubinstein, Cortot, Schnabel, Gilels, Argerich - to name just a few) but Richter is not on my list  8)

The precise reason I find 'musical' statements like this infantile.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #37 on: July 23, 2007, 12:25:55 PM »
I'm aware of the purely musical elements of technique, but while I value them very much - I do not discuss them because it reduces discussions to infantile rants like yours.

Speed is ALOT more than you realise.

Without finger speed, someone wouldn't be able to articulate with staccato, legato, etc.

Wow, someone has the ability to articulate and dynamically shape a passage a 10BPM!

That is EASY, technique only becomes a challenge when time restrictions are imposed.

If we had 5 secods to prepare for every note and chord, it'd be quiteeasy

When we have 0.03 of a second to prepare, we have to involve much more technique.

Anyway, back to thepoint, speed and evenness are OBJECTIVELY calculable - a computer can analyze it, and figure out the pianist with the greater dexterity.

Speed is nothing unless you have a bad technique!! Whcih by your obsession with speed I am guessing you do! Articulation etc comes from the hand! You hardly EVER use the fingers in piano playing! Because they are WEAK!! The fingers are nothign but pathetic bits of bone! The hand and arm does everything. Maybe if you went to a teacher you'd find this out, and realise that speed is in fact the easiest thing of all.

How does speed effect legato staccato etc..? Scales are much harder at slow tempo's. Everyone knows that, becasue the control over the sound is much harder. Fast scales are always even becasue the speed covers up the bumps and the legato can be faked.

You are so ignorant to slow tempo's and articulationa dn legato. I'd love so much to hear you play Schubert Bb sonata slow mvt. Or opening of appassionata!! You'd be so screwed, becasue the articulation and control is so hard no matter how fast your fingers are they will still fall.

If we had 5 seconds to prepare each chord?? Have you heard of balancing chords? That is true technique! To balance a chord perfectly. At slow speeds they are much harder! Dioes that mean 2nd mvt of appasionata is easy technically? How do you balance the chords? You have to get the correct shapes in the hand, but I doubt your technique has ever managed to look at things like that...I bet you play the appasionat slow mvt with curved fingers and all top voice? Ignoring that rest of the voices...but hey it must be easy, you have time to prepare each chord!

0.03 seconds..ok, hard chord passages like that practced correctkly are easy. Hard chordal passages...um...4th ballade just before coda, big chors, short preparation time... why is the speed a problem? You find the positions you practice the changes and there you go!! Hard at first, but is much easier than the chords in 2nd mvt of appasionata! Hitting the notes at the correct speed is amateur stuff! You sort of assume that any pianist has the abilty to hit the notes.


Anyway...how the hell do we know if Richter was playing full speed? and if Wunder was? I never ever perform op10no4 at my full speed. I'm at 3/4 speed all the time, and thats still above chopin metronome mark! Don't you get it? Richter wasn't aiming to play it so pathetic obssesive people go wowowow look at his speed!! and I'm sure he couldn't care less if you think Wunder has greater dexterity! Which in my opinion he doesn't!!


How can you say you won't discuss musical elements of techniuqe? We practice technique for hours a day so we can apply them to music! You have never made one decdent comment in your life about musical detail or how to apply a technique ot music! You even said Arrau had a bad sound!!

Playing legato is an art in itself, and speed has nothing to do with this! Listen to wunders op10no2 would you call that legato?

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #38 on: July 23, 2007, 12:52:46 PM »
I'm afraid your fundamental views on technique and mechanique are flawed, I'm trying to teach people here, give them insight with my knowledge, but some people refuse to learn.

Fancy a duel on Chopin's Op10no1?  :)
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #39 on: July 23, 2007, 02:55:53 PM »
hahaha any day! What key? Lh or right hand?

If my views on technique are flawed how come I can play a lot of difficult piano music?  ::)

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #40 on: July 23, 2007, 03:18:17 PM »
Slowly. :)

I'd prefer the C major, no cheating for you  :P
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Offline nicco

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #41 on: July 23, 2007, 04:32:13 PM »
Arent you guys tired of having the same discussion over and over?
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #42 on: July 23, 2007, 05:41:35 PM »
You hardly EVER use the fingers in piano playing!

Who could tire of this precious CG? :)
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Offline m

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #43 on: July 23, 2007, 06:08:13 PM »
You said it. :) Who mentioned music?


As always, you entirely missed the point.

Was he?

Don't remember if it was Grammophone or Classic CD, but at the end of millenium there was a poll where out of 100 musicians of all genres Richter got No.1.
Whether people agree or disagree does not reduce from Richter a bit.

I'm afraid your fundamental views on technique and mechanique are flawed, I'm trying to teach people here, give them insight with my knowledge, but some people refuse to learn.


Well, everyone here knows your incredible stubborness, but maybe for you it would be a good time to finally understand and accept the fact that maybe there is a very deep reason why people refuse to learn from you.

You even don't realize how little you know about technique and mechanique.

Once again, I'd highly suggest you to find a good teacher, or at least start listening to people.

Best, M

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #44 on: July 23, 2007, 07:00:11 PM »
I do listen, then laugh  ;D
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Offline m

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #45 on: July 23, 2007, 07:13:06 PM »

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #46 on: July 23, 2007, 07:36:01 PM »
Rolling your eyes wont help you see if there's a brain inside  :-*.
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Offline zheer

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #47 on: July 23, 2007, 07:59:10 PM »
   Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli way of approaching the piano was truly pianistic, even more pianistic than Horowitz. With Richter one got the impression that he could master and perform anything he could get his hand on.
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Offline m

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #48 on: July 23, 2007, 08:13:25 PM »
Rolling your eyes wont help you see if there's a brain inside  :-*.

I never said you have no brain inside. It is just that it works in some kind of curiously unusual way when confronted with reality, or with certain topics.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: op 10 no 4 !!!
«Reply #49 on: July 23, 2007, 08:19:50 PM »
I'll admit, Richter's talent was also unusual.
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