Never Been Kissed

[dregs]

 I am a 38 year-old professional jazz pianist, and accompanist.  After poring over the the endless threads here, and their (mostly) excellent advice, I’ll ask for your help with my somewhat embarrassing problem.
     
For whatever reasons, I have never kissed a woman.  I know it's hard to believe, even laughable, but I've never had the best luck with romance.  I'm not socially awkward, I know how to carry an intelligent conversation, and I'm fairly attractive, but I have never experienced that "first kiss" moment. 
     
I'm starting to feel an emptiness inside, like I'm missing out on something.  I've avoided talking about my problem to people for a long time, for fear of being ridiculed. 

I believe the impetus may be the fact that I just cannot cultivate a "sexy" or "romantic" atmosphere when talking to the opposite sex.  Instead, the conversation is nice, pleasant, interesting and enlightening, but always platonic.  I can't help but feel like I'm passing my prime. 

Those "Dating Manuals" never seem to work. I am very cerebral, and introspective, and feel so different and incompatible with their advice.  I thought I would ask people more similar to myself, which is why I came to PianoForum.   

Does anyone have any advice?  I'm starting to feel like Holden Caulfield here!

[pianistimo]

well, i have nothing better to do right now than analyze you - so let's get to it.  why is kissing so important for you to accomplish in your life anyways?  just forget about it and move on to something else.  who knows - it might lead back to kissing, though. 

ok.  prepare for the event by rehearsing in your mind 'cues' that women might drop (watch the movie 'hitch') - such as jingling their keys at the door instead of putting the key in the door right away - etc.  start taking these signs as 'yes' and just go for it.  if they don't like it - just say 'excuse me' - and kiss them on the cheek.  no harm in playing passive-agressive.

women actually think it's much cuter for a guy to be shy than over agressive.  they like to be able to 'feel' in control.  to be able to manipulate a man. 

but, being a christian - i wouldn't necessarily advice continuing to be shy with someone that you have feelings for.  i would just use it on the first few dates.  then - slowly over time - open up your feelings and tell her exactly what you are feeling and thinking.  hopefully, she will do the same.  if you truly have feelings for someone else (a  friendship) - kissing will work itself out afterwards.  better to have the true feelings in place beforehand. 

don't forget to tilt you head to one side or you'll lock noses.  marry her if she is a good kisser.

*oh, and don't forget to wear cologne.  it's very important.  it saves you from saying much of anything romantic - because they smell romance on your mind.  also, keep everything tidy.  some men are like this naturally.  it is a very big turn-on to most women.  nobody wants to clean 3 newspapers and a donut off their seat on their side of the car. 

[pianistimo]

*note:  it's a good thing not to have kissed any or very many women actually.  it means when you find the right one you won't be mentally comparing her to others you have kissed.  she will find that extremely attractive as no woman likes to be #2 or #3.  in fact, if you remind her of this almost daily ('you are the best kisser - well, actually i've never kissed a girl before - but anyways - you are the best kisser in the world').  women thrive on compliments.  they will become better and better at anything you want them to do as long as they feel some kind of prowess. 

[thalbergmad]

     
I believe the impetus may be the fact that I just cannot cultivate a "sexy" or "romantic" atmosphere when talking to the opposite sex. 

Then try to play for them then. In my experience, girls love that.

You are a jazz pianist, what is more romantic than that? Very little i think.

Thal

[jinfiesto]

I agree with thal. Just play. With candles. and umm... scented candles...

[pies]

a

[franz_]

Do you play in a restaurant/bar ?  May be you should do that, you play for them, you will meet some people etc.
And btw, may I ask you if you had ever sex with a woman in your life?


A little off-topic, do you have a website or a place where I can hear you playing?
I'm a classical pianist but love jazz (f.e. I adore Oscar Peterson)

[ted]

You puzzle me a little, dregs. You say you are reasonably attractive, intelligent and obviously, from what you do, talented. If you are also single, socially unencumbered in other ways, and have frequent one-on-one contact with accessible females, I would tend to ask the converse question - why has one of them not kissed you ?  If the women around here are anything to go by I wonder why you are not fighting them off. Perhaps you are reading much more into it than necessary and your mental state somehow shows. A kiss is just a kiss; it is not necessarily a precursor to torrid sex, grand passion or lifelong devotion.

I can't quite put my finger on it, as the parson said to the actress. Are you interested in sex ? You do get the occasional healthy man who simply has a low libido and wonders why everybody else behaves in the ways they do. We can assume that this is not the case ?

The next few dates you have just try it, that's all I can suggest. What's the worst that could happen ? Only that she doesn't want to and, as you are used to not doing it anyway that's hardly going to be traumatic is it ?

[dregs]

Thanks for the (mostly) great advice everyone.

It's not rape if she can't say no

Ples, while I'm sure your intentions are honorable, and I can understand how your little "fact" might have some disturbing technical merit, I fail to see its relevance here.  Thanks anyway though.

Pianistimo, I appreciate your comments tremendously.  Concerning my situation, and in light of your comments, it's not so much that I place the act of kissing on a pedestal, but that in my conceptual framework and understanding of relationships and romance, kissing is the first physical indication of real romantic feelings.  This first step is what I'm striving for.

My working schedule is somewhat hectic, but in the few "relationships" I've been in, a "chemistry" was never felt on her part.  Perhaps I was unable to cultivate romance, or sexual attraction.  In almost all cases, I seem to fit the role of the "friend" or "therapist" more than a romantic partner. Ergo, no kiss.

However, I never let this problem become any more than mere vexation, or minor dissatisfaction. 
With so many other various facets of life, in the larger spectrum my little dilemma is reduced to the gnat that flies up ones nose every so often during spring, then simply goes away, or is crushed by a violent nose-blow.  It does bother me though, when I see young couples madly in love during that season, or even teenagers dating, and think, "Am I missing out on something?!"

Do you play in a restaurant/bar ?  May be you should do that, you play for them, you will meet some people etc.
And btw, may I ask you if you had ever sex with a woman in your life?

I do play in many local venues, include clubs and restaurants, but seldom do I find people to talk to or connect with.  Everyone seems to have their own agenda, and it is rare if I ever fit into it.

No, I have never had sex (That would be something, if I achieved that, but not the kiss!).

A little off-topic, do you have a website or a place where I can hear you playing?
I'm a classical pianist but love jazz (f.e. I adore Oscar Peterson)

Franz_, Due to my busy work schedule, I haven't had the time or knowledge to create and maintain a website.  However, I have worked and recorded as a sideman and leader on several cd's.  I'd be happy to post an mp3 in the auditions room (I'm a huge Peterson fan as well).

And Ted, you make some very insightful comments, and ask some important questions as well.

I would tend to ask the converse question - why has one of them not kissed you ?  If the women around here are anything to go by I wonder why you are not fighting them off.

Well Ted, in my experience, I have had no problems igniting a relationship.  Confidence has never been a problem, nor has shyness or lack of imagination.  However, that word (ignite) is misleading.  It would imply that "chemistry" was felt, which never seemed to be the case for them. 

Perhaps you are reading much more into it than necessary and your mental state somehow shows.

I have exhausted the glib, intuitive approach; I never had a problem listening politely and responding empathetically to females.  This is a trait I have always naturally brought to courtship.  I have found though, that this not only compartmentalizes my role into the pseudo-therapist but also negates any romantic, "sexy" atmosphere.  My own interests (Proust, Joyce, knitting, opera) do nothing to fan the flames of sex or romance either.

I'm still not about to force myself on a woman, although I'm sure Ples might recommend it highly.

Thanks again for all of the helpful comments, and I greatly appreciate any thoughts or advice on the matter!

[richard black]

Well, I'd advise not fretting about it. If you were dwelling on the lack of romance in your life 24/7 it would be different, but evidently you're not. I've got one friend of 50-odd who's never had a relationship and seems perfectly contented with his lot: on the other hand, my wife had apparently never kissed a guy (not properly, I mean - she comes from a country where you greet even passing acquaintances with a kiss on both cheeks) until she met me, at which point she was much nearer 40 than 30.

But that said - my bit of advice on who to get surreptitiously under the skin of someone you fancy is to get to know them a bit, then confide in them, preferably something slightly painful. Most people fall for that one. An unusually worldly-wise friend told me years ago, 'if you want to get someone to like you, let them do you a favour', and I've seen plenty of evidence that he had a point.

[alwaystheangel]

k sick as this sounds... what about a close (single) female friend, she could help you um, train up a bit. lol  I think once you do it once, its a lot easier to do it again after. 

My first kiss occurred with my THIRD boyfriend and it was the most awkward thing ever lol. I tried to duck (my usual escape tactic).  After that I went through four bf in a little under 6 months haha

regardless, I think that there is someone for everyone, you just haven't found here yet.  But I'm sure she will be worth the wait.

[zheer]

Those "Dating Manuals" never seem to work.

     

[thalbergmad]

k sick as this sounds... what about a close (single) female friend, she could help you um, train up a bit. lol  I think once you do it once, its a lot easier to do it again after. 

I actually did that, it is not a bad idea.

Thal

[G.W.K]

women actually think it's much cuter for a guy to be shy than over agressive.  they like to be able to 'feel' in control.  to be able to manipulate a man.

So in other words women like to be control freaks? LOL Good thing to remember...

Those "Dating Manuals" never seem to work. I am very cerebral, and introspective, and feel so different and incompatible with their advice. I thought I would ask people more similar to myself, which is why I came to PianoForum.

Dating Manuals? I never heard of them...are they any good? If so...where do you get them? LOL 

G.W.K

[alwaystheangel]

I actually did that, it is not a bad idea.

Thal

good, since thal's done it, its obviously not that weird of an idea

[jlh]

I just cannot cultivate a "sexy" or "romantic" atmosphere when talking to the opposite sex.  Instead, the conversation is nice, pleasant, interesting and enlightening, but always platonic. 

Perhaps you're not romantically or sexually attracted to the opposite sex? 

[lichristine]

Consider this:
Is it better to have never kissed someone, or to have lost your virginity at age 13 and to have not stopped since, becoming a strange emotionally scarred and distant person very susceptible to fantasies of love?

I kind of think it's pretty cool you've held out so long.

[thalbergmad]

good, since thal's done it, its obviously not that weird of an idea

Thanks, it was my cousin.

Thal

[jlh]

I am a 38 year-old professional jazz pianist, and accompanist....For whatever reasons, I have never kissed a woman. 

Have you ever seen "The 40 Year Old Virgin"?  Maybe there's some good advice on that film you could use?

Josh

[G.W.K]

Consider this:
Is it better to have never kissed someone, or to have lost your virginity at age 13 and to have not stopped since, becoming a strange emotionally scarred and distant person very susceptible to fantasies of love?

I kind of think it's pretty cool you've held out so long.

WHAT? lichristine...are you making confessions? I dread to think what age you are now...probably 14. LOL...only kidding!

G.W.K

[soliloquy]

Are you cute?

[zheer]

Does anyone have any advice?  I'm starting to feel like Holden Caulfield here!

    Sure , ask some-one you know to help you find a partner, obviously a close friend some-one you trust and som-one that knows you well , will be ideal. As far as i know some people can find a partner with relative ease, others have to try flipping hard, with some it just happens by chance not planed .

[jlh]

Call an escort service... 

[pianistimo]

yes.  like your mother.  (just kidding)  wait - this is in response to zheer and not jlh.  i must make that clear.

seriously - i have already planned out who i want my daughter to meet (a son of one of my best girlfriends.  my daughter probably doesn't remember her son because the last time they were visiting he was probably 5 years old.  we're going to her house at thanksgiving.  i'll probably say to my daughter on the way over - now, my friend has a son - but i don't think he's your type so stay far away from him).  mothers can be so sneaky.  what's terrible is that my daughter is only 12 and has no interest in boys yet anyways.  but, for a mom - we want to make sure that the person is #1 kind  #2 compatible  #3 will take good care of our child  #4 has some kind of ability or job  #5 is good looking (this kid is really a hunk now - but is only 16 - so we have to wait for about 10 years.  #6 would never be violent (i have heard he is hard on his brother - but only when his bro picks on him). 

really - kissing is the least of life's problems.  if you find someone you really like - they probably don't even care if you kiss terribly.  it will give them something to teach you. 

[jlh]

yes.  like your mother.  (just kidding) wait - this is in response to zheer and not jlh.  i must make that clear.

HAHA I was just kidding, btw... 

seriously - i have already planned out who i want my daughter to meet (a son of one of my best girlfriends.  we're going to her house at thanksgiving.  i'll probably say to my daughter on the way over - now, my friend has a son - but i don't think he's your type so stay far away from him).  mother's can be so sneaky.  what's terrible is that my daughter is only 12 and has no interest in boys yet anyways. 

Or perhaps she's terrified to tell you she already has an interest in boys?

[lichristine]

WHAT? lichristine...are you making confessions? I dread to think what age you are now...probably 14. LOL...only kidding!

G.W.K

haha
i'm 17

[pianistimo]

no.  not terrified.  the boy would be the one who would be terrified.  although, i do not yet know how to use a gun.

overprotective mothers are probably the main reason there ARE 30 and 40 year old virgins.  and yet - i really do hope my daughter is a virgin when she marries.  i don't think it's a bad thing.  perhaps she will marry whomever she wants at whatever age she wants - and i'll still be ok with it.  but, in the back of my mind i think 'why not at least introduce her to someone that i think might take care of her the best.'  he's a kid with a big heart.  some traits you see in children very early.  i've always liked my best friend's son and his manner and way of being and thought he would be a perfect match for my daughter.  i even went so far as to send a yearly letter (starting last year) with a picture - and brag about her grades - and also say that she doesn't have a boyfriend and probably won't for a while.

[rimv2]

So in other words women like to be control freaks? LOL Good thing to remember...

Only when ye, let them out the Keetchen. Hardy, har, har, har! 

YIPPiEEE

[jlh]

no.  not terrified.  the boy would be the one who would be terrified.  although, i do not yet know how to use a gun.

overprotective mothers are probably the main reason there ARE 30 and 40 year old virgins.  and yet - i really do hope my daughter is a virgin when she marries.  i don't think it's a bad thing.  perhaps she will marry whomever she wants at whatever age she wants - and i'll still be ok with it.  but, in the back of my mind i think 'why not at least introduce her to someone that i think might take care of her the best.'  he's a kid with a big heart.  some traits you see in children very early.  i've always liked my best friend's son and his manner and way of being and thought he would be a perfect match for my daughter.  i even went so far as to send a yearly letter (starting last year) with a picture - and brag about her grades - and also say that she doesn't have a boyfriend and probably won't for a while.

A gun?  Are you serious?  Why would you need a gun?  Would you be inclined to use it if you knew how to operate it?

In my experience and observation, arranged marriages are seldom in the best interest of the child -- where matters of happiness and contentment are concerned.  Are you sure you don't have a crush on the boy?   Or at least in love with the idea of being related to one of your girlfriends?

Growing up, my mom has done the same thing to me, by telling me certain girls would make good wives.  I've also experienced being on the receiving end... with other girls' parents telling my parents that their daughters would be a good match for me.  It's a bit sickening to tell you the truth (looking back on it).  I am 25 and not married, and my life is better for it right now.  I don't have to worry about providing for another person besides myself, and am able to focus on school more as a result, which will help me in the future.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the best for your children, but they need to experience life for themselves if they are ever going to be independant and rational.  Granted your daughter is 12 and shouldn't be dating or even thinking about such things at that age.  I just hope that in 6 years you will let her make up her own mind (with advice of course) about what she wants for her life.  Maybe she won't want to get married at all?  That would throw a fork in your plans with your friend's son, wouldn't it?

[rimv2]

I am a 38 year-old professional jazz pianist, and accompanist.  After poring over the the endless threads here, and their (mostly) excellent advice, I’ll ask for your help with my somewhat embarrassing problem.
     
For whatever reasons, I have never kissed a woman.  I know it's hard to believe, even laughable, but I've never had the best luck with romance.  I'm not socially awkward, I know how to carry an intelligent conversation, and I'm fairly attractive, but I have never experienced that "first kiss" moment. 
     
I'm starting to feel an emptiness inside, like I'm missing out on something.  I've avoided talking about my problem to people for a long time, for fear of being ridiculed. 

I believe the impetus may be the fact that I just cannot cultivate a "sexy" or "romantic" atmosphere when talking to the opposite sex.  Instead, the conversation is nice, pleasant, interesting and enlightening, but always platonic.  I can't help but feel like I'm passing my prime. 

Those "Dating Manuals" never seem to work. I am very cerebral, and introspective, and feel so different and incompatible with their advice.  I thought I would ask people more similar to myself, which is why I came to PianoForum.   

Does anyone have any advice?  I'm starting to feel like Holden Caulfield here!

In all seriousness, if you've gone this long without doing so, it's obviously not a priority for you. So, don't stress it.

But, if it's something you really must to do, I suggest you either walk up to the most butt ugly individual that could possibly pass as female and strike up some convo, or walk up to the most mind blowing chick and tell her she's fat.

The butt ugly chick will work you. She have you putting a ring on her finger before you even know her name. You'll do all the kissin you want for one night, and after that, she'll become the man in the relationship. I you choose to insult the hot chick. She may kick you in the nuts, but at least you will have actually grown a pair. And who knows, she might be one of those chicks who like abusive guys .

Get out of your comfort zone.

LUCK Be With YOU

PS there is no in between

[franz_]

no.  not terrified.  the boy would be the one who would be terrified.  although, i do not yet know how to use a gun.

overprotective mothers are probably the main reason there ARE 30 and 40 year old virgins.  and yet - i really do hope my daughter is a virgin when she marries.  i don't think it's a bad thing.  perhaps she will marry whomever she wants at whatever age she wants - and i'll still be ok with it.  but, in the back of my mind i think 'why not at least introduce her to someone that i think might take care of her the best.'  he's a kid with a big heart.  some traits you see in children very early.  i've always liked my best friend's son and his manner and way of being and thought he would be a perfect match for my daughter.  i even went so far as to send a yearly letter (starting last year) with a picture - and brag about her grades - and also say that she doesn't have a boyfriend and probably won't for a while.

That's really wrong in my opinion. Let your daughter have her life, she has to make decisions, not you.

[thalbergmad]

But, if it's something you really must to do, I suggest you either walk up to the most butt ugly individual that could possibly pass as female and strike up some

You can borrow my girlfriend if you like.

She can crack a camera lense at 40 paces, that is if you can fit the fat cow in the frame at that distance.

Thal

[jlh]

The butt ugly chick will work you. She have you putting a ring on her finger before you even know her name. You'll do all the kissin you want for one night, and after that, she'll become the man in the relationship. I you choose to insult the hot chick. She may kick you in the nuts, but at least you will have actually grown a pair. And who knows, she might be one of those chicks who like abusive guys .

The thing about hot chicks is that they are very insecure -- especially about their looks.  Make them think they have need to be insecure and you win them over.  Seems illogical, but it's the truth.  They will try to validate themselves in your eyes.

[pianistimo]

i'm teasing about the gun.  actually, i just ask her once in a while what's happening with her and her gal friends.  usually they just hang out together and they're not really 'into' that big social stuff.  i'm glad.  i think maybe a few more years and she'll have a 'groove ' of her own - and her own interests and talents and never rely on dating to prove that she's 'worthy.'  i think girls can be worthy in their own right.  actually she already has a lot of interests right now.

and, yes - she's too young to be dating anyways - and i don't really think i'm trying to get her to date now.  but, i'd like her to get to know this fellow so she will have someone to think about later.  you know - just meet him.  what's the harm in that?  and, then - if they did get serious - i'd have to hide my feelings because she never seems to want to choose what i'd choose anyways with clothes, ideas, songs, etc.

i saw this boy actually born - so i don't think i would be having the 'hots' for him.  he was a 10 lb baby.  i knew from that moment he was going to be a sort of manly kind of boy.  and, knowing the parents - i know he's got good ones.  his father is really nice to his mother and always concerned and caring.   

[thalberg]

The thing about hot chicks is that they are very insecure -- especially about their looks.  Make them think they have need to be insecure and you win them over.  Seems illogical, but it's the truth.  They will try to validate themselves in your eyes.

Wow, Josh, that is so true!!!!

One time I walked into a party, and this woman was there who was impossibly gorgeous.  I assumed she must be unbearably conceited and vowed to have nothing to do with her. So later when I accidentally found myself in the same room as her,  I tried really hard to avoid her.  She noticed, and spent the rest of the night trying to win me over.

[thalberg]

Dregs, where did you go?  Are you still there?  We want an update.


Also...........you said you sympathize with women and become like their therapist. 

Women constantly share sad or insecure types of things as a normal part of conversation. 

When they do that, just lean in and kiss them instead of sympathizing.

[thalberg]

Or what about this......

You're obviously afraid to just jump in and kiss a woman on the mouth never having done it before, so perhaps do something else that you could be comfortable with.  Put your arm around her.  Take her hand and kiss it.  If you do those things, her reaction will tell you where you stand, and then your courage will rise.

[jlh]

Wow, Josh, that is so true!!!!

One time I walked into a party, and this woman was there who was impossibly gorgeous.  I assumed she must be unbearably conceited and vowed to have nothing to do with her. So later when I accidentally found myself in the same room as her,  I tried really hard to avoid her.  She noticed, and spent the rest of the night trying to win me over.

The important thing to consider if you want to be romantic and not "in the friend zone" is that you cannot be the nice guy she goes to when she has problems.  That's what her gay guy friends and girlfriends are for.  Ask any hot girl what her last boyfriend was like and you're likely to get an answer like,"he was an ***hole!", and you wonder why all these girls are going for guys like that instead of nice guys like you and I.  I'll tell you why... girls aren't attracted to nice guys in that way.  Sure, they will tell you they want a nice guy and all that, but when it comes down to it, the nice guys aren't the ones getting their game on.  Once she makes a decision about whether you're "mate" material or "friend" material, it's very difficult to change her mind, and if you're interested in her, you're setting yourself up for a tough letdown, or a termination of the friendship altogether.

If you're a nice guy, you will finish last unless you take steps to change this.  That doesn't mean you have to be mean, but you can't be nice all the time!  Give them an occasional back-handed compliment, but don't straight out insult them at all.  You have to be unpredictable, you have to make them think they can't do any better than you (again, the insecurity thing) or they might think they CAN do better than you, and they'll leave you (that's also why you should never pay for a chick's boob job...  you'll be out of money and she'll be out of your life, because then she knows she can get someone hotter or richer than you now).  One more thing, occasionally do things that let them know you like them, but not all the time (flowers, little sticky notes, dinner, etc.).

Most of the time, if you're a nice guy, do the polar opposite of what your instict tells you.  You will be surprized at the results!

I heard a story once about a guy that walked into a restaurant.  There was another guy with a terrible haircut -- and this guy made a comment to him saying, "nice hair...hmph", or something like that.  There was a hot chick at the next table that stood right up and said, "how DARE you be so rude to that guy, you don't even know him!", to which he replied "who the **** asked you?!"  Then she started opening her mouth again with some emotional retort.  While her mouth was open, he stood up and kissed her.  They lip-locked for several seconds, and then she said, "I don't know why I'm kissing you -- you're an A**hole".

That's WHY she was kissing him if you ask me!  Girls are attracted to a**holes... 

[thalberg]

The important thing to consider if you want to be romantic and not "in the friend zone" is that you cannot be the nice guy she goes to when she has problems.  That's what her gay guy friends and girlfriends are for.  Ask any hot girl what her last boyfriend was like and you're likely to get an answer like,"he was an ***hole!", and you wonder why all these girls are going for guys like that instead of nice guys like you and I.  I'll tell you why... girls aren't attracted to nice guys in that way.  Sure, they will tell you they want a nice guy and all that, but when it comes down to it, the nice guys aren't the ones getting their game on.  Once she makes a decision about whether you're "mate" material or "friend" material, it's very difficult to change her mind, and if you're interested in her, you're setting yourself up for a tough letdown, or a termination of the friendship altogether.

If you're a nice guy, you will finish last unless you take steps to change this.  That doesn't mean you have to be mean, but you can't be nice all the time!  Give them an occasional back-handed compliment, but don't straight out insult them at all.  You have to be unpredictable, you have to make them think they can't do any better than you (again, the insecurity thing) or they might think they CAN do better than you, and they'll leave you (that's also why you should never pay for a chick's boob job...  you'll be out of money and she'll be out of your life, because then she knows she can get someone hotter or richer than you now).  One more thing, occasionally do things that let them know you like them, but not all the time (flowers, little sticky notes, dinner, etc.).

Most of the time, if you're a nice guy, do the polar opposite of what your instict tells you.  You will be surprized at the results!

I heard a story once about a guy that walked into a restaurant.  There was another guy with a terrible haircut -- and this guy made a comment to him saying, "nice hair...hmph", or something like that.  There was a hot chick at the next table that stood right up and said, "how DARE you be so rude to that guy, you don't even know him!", to which he replied "who the **** asked you?!"  Then she started opening her mouth again with some emotional retort.  While her mouth was open, he stood up and kissed her.  They lip-locked for several seconds, and then she said, "I don't know why I'm kissing you -- you're an A**hole".

That's WHY she was kissing him if you ask me!  Girls are attracted to a**holes... 

Come on, Josh, credit your source there.........doesn't that come from a monologue book for actors or something?

[jlh]

I wrote it.  Partly from experience, partly from reading and partly from talking with others.

The story of the guy in the restaurant (and the justification) came from a caller on a radio talk show.

Here I'm just talking about how to get kissed.  If you want a long term relationship or marriage, your tactics might need to be modified.    I said nice guys finish last, and that's the truth, but the guy in last place gets the girl when she's ready to settle down.

And if you're gay, all you need is a cute face and cash.

[pianistimo]

i'm glad you clairified your position that you were just telling him 'how to get kissed.'  some of the advice i found a bit of a put-off.  for one thing - don't most guys want a 'nice girl' too?  or is this way off?  i mean - you wouldn't want a girl insulting your manhood.  so, why would she want someone insulting her once in a while with 'backhanded compliments.'

as i see it - be truly different and be a gentleman no matter what.  open the door for her.  walk on the protective side of the street.  eat jelly beans with her when she's bored.  are my ideas from 20 years ago or what?  do girls really want to just have a guy for sex and nothing else?  and visa-versa for guys.  it seems sad really - because sex IS a long term committment imo.  it connects you to the person you had it with and if you think they are 'butt ugy' what are you doing trying to get in their pants?  relationships with people that you find 'butt ugly' would just perpetuate the idea that sex is separate from infatuation, lust, and long term relationship. 

ok.  who stays married.  people that stay in lust.  if you can't have sex when you've gotten very angry because the person you are married to just made you mad - and they are not sexually attractive - you are doomed.  if they are attractive - you just make love and the argument is over.  thus - providing for long-term relationship.  marry someone you find incredibly 'hot' and don't think you'll ever find 'butt ugly.'  and, make sure they don't insult you too much - because that's just not nice. 

that said - there is something attractive about a man who is sure of himself and can't be manipulated too much.  i mean - if you're always ahead of the guy mentally - it could get old after a week.  i don't mind when my husband makes a decision - but he usually includes me and asks what i think and considers it.  teamwork is what it's all about.  having someone who's reliable and will help you up when you are down - and visa-versa.  someone you feel safer from the world and from the work place.  so what if you are 1/2 therapist.  maybe you'll meet a woman who likes that!  especially if you always suggest kissing as the solution. 

[opus10no2]

Everyone has different marriage values, and it's perfectly OK to have a platonic bond with a woman who you don't find physically attractive, you can both agree to sleep around.

[pianistimo]

isn't that setting you both up for some kind of guilt or pain.  i mean - if the girl finds out you called her 'butt ugly' to a friend and she thought she was attractive to you - then that in itself could be a source of pain.  also, if she was draining you of funds in other ways (such as eating out and paying for other things) you might come to resent her because of not having a true interest in her.  so why put yourself thru a sort of nightmare when it came time to 'get rid' of her.  what are you going to do - tell her 'you're butt ugly and the sex we had meant nothing to me.  i hope we never cross paths again.'  then - either she will cry or insult you back.  then, what is gained? 

you have to look at the end result of any relationship to see if it is worth getting into in the first place.  do you want to have this person's baby - or would you be getting an abortion to fend of butt ugly babies.  could you wake up with this person for years - or are you thinking that somehow - by the grace of God - you will not end up with about 10 std's dating various women throughout your early 20's.  do you wish to be constantly in the doctor's office asking for testing because you are worried the last one did you in. 

as i see it - dregs - go to church.  even if you don't believe it.  just look around for someone who you'd want to kiss in the first place.  as i see it - bars are places for people who want to be drunk.  people who are drunk are not in their right minds.  kiss someone who is in their right mind.  if they are good at kissing - marry them.  that's all.

[opus10no2]

It'd have to be a mutual lack of physical attraction, of course.

And no, it would immunise both parties from guilt and pain.

I just find it funny that people have physical attractiveness as a top priority for a life partner.
It's just as good to have a platonic intimacy, and various sexual partners on the side, just for sh*ts and giggles.

[ahinton]

as i see it - dregs - go to church.

I've never seen any dregs going to church (but then maybe that's because I wasn't looking...)

even if you don't believe it.

"Even if you don't believe" what? The kinds of thing that one might hear in church?

just look around for someone who you'd want to kiss in the first place.

Am I seeing things or have I really just read an exhortation from Ste. Susanne to attend church for the purposes of finding someone whom the attendee would want to kiss? Whatever is the world coming to?!...

as i see it - bars are places for people who want to be drunk.

Only in the cases of those people who want to get drunk; such people can do that in lots of places bseides bars, just as one can spend time in a bar without there being any obligation upon one to get drunk.

people who are drunk are not in their right minds.

Likewise, one does not have to be drunk to be other than in one's right mind!

kiss someone who is in their right mind.  if they are good at kissing - marry them.  that's all.

I suspect that Santa Susana is now winding some people up here, for if the above suggestion were to be generally taken up, there would be so many couples marrying that there would be a shortage of people able to officiate at the ceremonies.

Anyway, when I looked at the front page of the forum before responding to this, I saw under Anything but Piano

"Never Been Kissed by pianistimo."

Whether or not the truth may set one free, that certainly is the truth...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

but trust is a #1 important quality besides looks.  if you truly love a person - of course, it doesn't matter how they look.  but, i'm just saying - for the typical male and younger female - to avoid the temptation of looking elsewhere - why not marry the most attractive person you can find? 

i think it's:  trust, attractiveness, dependability, honesty, integrity, caring,  ...and so forth - and the later things would include kissing prowess.  i mean - it's not that important in the long run because it's a skill that can be learned.  some of the other things have to be practiced long before that - to guarantee skill.

to me - it's all about truly seeing the worth of a woman or man as invaluable as compared to any other.  who wants to be second or third?

alistair, very funny!  i suppose you are some kind of kissing expert?

[ahinton]

alistair, very funny!  i suppose you are some kind of kissing expert?

As the British government minister portrayed so splendidly by Ian Richardson in a dramatisation of Michael Dobbs's House of Cards famously put it "You might think that: I couldn't possibly comment".

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

Pianistimo, everything would be fine if the woman with the best personality was also the best looking, but how often is this the case?

[pianistimo]

are you saying attractive women have terrible personalities?  well.  you might be right.  pianists also have terrible personalities.  i mean - male or female -they are usually a little bit  - well...off.  some kind of quirk.  so then, you have to overcompensate in other areas.  the obsessive-compulsive behavior might be a turnoff unless you make it a sort of game to go back in a get the 'said' date - a glass of water whilst at the same time checking the stove for the 2nd or 3rd time. 

[opus10no2]

No, I'm questioning the odds of the best personality you ever find being housed in the most attractive body.

Does a compromise need to be made?

Marry the hot chick and bone her when you want, and be close friends with the woman who has the best personality.

Good approach?