Define: Faith

[soliloquy]

Give your personal definition.  No long, religion-based posts.  Just define "faith".

[wotgoplunk]

Give your personal definition.  No long, religion-based posts.  Just define "faith".

Belief in something without firm proof.

[prometheus]

Belief in something without evidence.


There may be some evidence, but evidence should not be relevant. Evidence only starts to play a role when you try to convince others of your beliefs.

[pianolearner]

Belief based on logic and reason.

[thalbergmad]

Reliance and trust on something without evidence.

[pianistimo]

faith is 'the evidence of things hoped for.'  namely, that christians viewed the ressurrection of Christ as a sign of things to come.  that His word was true.  because He was ressurrected - we have hope.

[prometheus]

So the 'word' faith is defined by the Christian religion?

[pianistimo]

yes.  it is by action.  perseverance - when things don't look so good.  you just have faith that it will all work out fairly - because our God is fair and equitable - and any unfairness in this life will be worked out in the next.  when you have faith you don't need to 'get even.' 

[prometheus]

So without Christianity no language?

[pianolearner]

I would hate to be the accused in a trial where the jury is comprised of people who base their beliefs without the need for evidence, logic or reason 

[m]

So the 'word' faith is defined by the Christian religion?

yes.   

 

So according to you if somebody does not follow Christian religion automatically does not have faith, by definition

Poor rest of the world, including me

[rimv2]

yes.  it is by action.  perseverance - when things don't look so good.  you just have faith that it will all work out fairly - because our God is fair and equitable - and any unfairness in this life will be worked out in the next.  when you have faith you don't need to 'get even.' 

.....


So faith is defined, according to Christianity by, action?

You've told us what the Christians believe is faith.

What do you believe?

[timothy42b]

I would hate to be the accused in a trial where the jury is comprised of people who base their beliefs without the need for evidence, logic or reason 

Now you've conflated belief and faith.  They are similar but not the same.

Faith is required to believe in things for which there is no evidence for or against.  There are plenty of those things. 

Faith is not required to believe in things for which we have evidence.  The evidence suffices.

Ah, but what about the third case?  What happens when we believe in things for which we have firm evidence to the contrary? 

Is there life after death?  There is no evidence for or against.  There is no way to obtain evidence for or against.  You can believe it or not, it only requires faith.

There is overwhelming evidence the Earth was not shaped by a global Noachian Flood.  Believing it is not faith, it is dishonesty. 

[prometheus]

There is lot's of evidence against life after death. We know our mind is a product of our brain.

We know that after our death our brain will rot away just like any other part of our body.


There is no reason to believe  our brain's content is copied to another medium or something.

You can get around all this by some unsupported claims. But you can also do that with Noah's flood. You just need to be a bit smarter to make it a bit less absurd.

[pianolearner]

Now you've conflated belief and faith.  They are similar but not the same.

Faith is required to believe in things for which there is no evidence for or against.  There are plenty of those things. 

Faith is not required to believe in things for which we have evidence.  The evidence suffices.

Ah, but what about the third case?  What happens when we believe in things for which we have firm evidence to the contrary? 

Is there life after death?  There is no evidence for or against.  There is no way to obtain evidence for or against.  You can believe it or not, it only requires faith.

There is overwhelming evidence the Earth was not shaped by a global Noachian Flood.  Believing it is not faith, it is dishonesty. 

Agreed. But something must come before belief or faith and that is (a) reason, at the very least. There is no evidence for or against life after death but people have reasons as to why they believe one or the other. They have faith in their reasons.

P.S: You also need faith in the evidence and this is based on sound logic and reasoning.

[amanfang]

I also think Faith is active thing.  And I think evidence for something is very important in faith and believing.  For example, when I was little I used to jump off the diving board in deep end at the pool and my dad would catch me in the water.  I couldn't swim.  So for to jump off the diving board, I had to have faith that my dad would catch me.  If I didn't jump, there really wasn't much faith.  But because there was evidence that my dad - 1. was strong enough to catch me - 2. had caught me before when we did similar things (jumping off the stairs) - 3.  loved me and wanted to keep me safe.  etc.  So with those things I have no problem jumping off.  If my dad had never provided for my needs as a child, or asbused me in any sort of way, I probably would not have trusted him enough to jump. 

[pianowelsh]

Im very sorry to butt in BUT faith isnt an absence of evidence.  You can be completely sure in your faith! Its knowing that whatever else is said that what has been promised will happen.   Example I have a friend in the states - they are coming to visit me 1. I trust that the friend exists (if I havent seen them in a while) 2. I trust that they will follow through on their promise to come and see me.   Now I hear that all the flights have been grounded and that there are storms on the ocean that virtually all modes of communication has been cut off!  This tests my faith because what I see is a hopeless situation whereby my friend is in the US im here and  thats it.  BUT I have faith in my friend that when they say they will do something they do it...I dont know how it will be accomplished - I cant see that - but I know and am sure it will happen (im exercising faith now) 48 hours later I get a call from my friend in Southampton ' can you pick me up - I got the last transatlantic going before everything shut down. It was a rough ride but im here!'   There we have an example of faith turning to sight.. The conviction that I held is borne out to be true and I can now see the result of my faith.  I could have faith in my friend only because I know their character and that they will do what they promise.  As a christian I have faith in God because I know he is trust worthy and that he does what he says and that he is commited to me no matter what the obsticles.   Now the story i gave had a visual ending..not everything we have faith for we will see the end to..sometimes we die before we see the forfilment of something we hope/pray for. But thats not to say the faith is in vain..merely we dont get to see it. The christian however is assured of seeing Jesus ( however tough the journey) and he promises that there is aday when faith will turn to sight and we will see him face to face.      
I think I didnt give any long quotes so hope that was tolerable!

[pianolearner]

A complete stranger wants to borrow money from you and promises to pay you back. Do you have faith in his/her promise? If yes, there must be a reason. If no, there must be a reason. Neither require evidence.


A good friend, who has never asked before, wants to borrow money from you and promises to pay you back. Do you have the same faith in his/her promise?

[prometheus]

So much equivocation going on.


If you want to redefine faith as something in which evidence does play a role then we need a new word for the old definition of faith; a word for belief regardless of evidence.

[amanfang]

Again, it's not believing something with evidence.  One may percieve and understand evidence differently than you do, but that does not mean that it's not evidence.

[prometheus]

No, evidence is objective.

[pianolearner]

So much equivocation going on.


If you want to redefine faith as something in which evidence does play a role then we need a new word for the old definition of faith; a word for belief regardless of evidence.

I'm trying to bridge the gap. What makes you choose to believe or not believe something? It isn't faith, it is logic and reason. Do you believe there is life on other planets, if so, why?

[amanfang]

Why do people play the lottery even though there's a 1 in 500,000,000 chance that they'll win?  Because they have faith that maybe this time it will be their lucky day.  What is the evidence for that?  Well, SOMEONE has to win, may as well be them.  Is it rational evidence?  No, but it is evidence nonetheless. 

[prometheus]

I do not know.

But based on what we know we can try to say something about that. I have no faith at all in life on other planets.


So basically I do not know. But I also know that there are many planets and that earth isn't special. Those are both based on facts.


But if you take the famous Drake equation and try to fill in the numbers while paying attention to the uncertainty the result will be that life can both be extremely common or extremely rare, because of the high number of variables and the great uncertainty in those numbers,

Uncertainty also multiplies.



So yes, it is very possible that we are the only life forms in the universe. Some people do indeed rule this possibility out. I don't. But I would bet a lot of money on there being life on other planets.


There is indeed also a difference between reason and evidence. But there is no such a thing as 'reasonable faith'.

Existence of things and evidence go together. But when it comes to lending strangers money, you can base this on reason. The point is that you do not need evidence about this specific person. You also don't even need to have 'faith' in this person to return the money.

If I give money to a stranger I have no idea if I will get it back or not. But the reason I do lend the money is because I act the way I would want to act others as well. So when the amount of money isn't too big I will take the risk of losing the money.

It's like the Prisoner's dilemma. You risk to cooperate by trusting the other who could very well betray you.
Why? Because this is the best strategy. Game theory deals with this. And evolution also uses this strategy.

So first of all, it is hard-coded in our brains regardless of our attempt to make a choice. And second, it is reasonable to use the best strategy.

[prometheus]

Why do people play the lottery even though there's a 1 in 500,000,000 chance that they'll win?  Because they have faith that maybe this time it will be their lucky day.  What is the evidence for that?  Well, SOMEONE has to win, may as well be them.  Is it rational evidence?  No, but it is evidence nonetheless. 

The belief they have is that they are more lucky than other people. For this there is no evidence.
And do you really think that these people calculate the odds of winning? They don't. So what is the evidence they use or care about?

Like I said; there can be evidence, you can find evidence for most things even though they are wrong, but in case of faith even the pro-evidence plays no role.


Unless you try to convince others of your faith.

[pianistimo]

amanfang and pianowelsh described their personal walk with their father and God - and the element of trust that builds up when one's faith is practiced.  just like practicing the piano - you learn to pray.  and yes, rimv2, i do pray and believe that God will work things out in my life and in others lives.  i pray for healing for others and believe that God will listen.  i have prayed for healing in my own life and KNOW that God healed me.  therefore, i believe He can heal.

proof is not the only thing.  perseverance in trials is also a form of proving one's faith.  joseph was innocent and in prison for 7 years for a crime he did not commit.  but, during this time he did not stop praying.  instead, he increased it.  so much so - that he was continually elevated to higher positions and looking after the prison and then - suddenly to the second under pharoah again for being able to discern one of pharoah's dreams.  he would not have had the ability to do this if he had lost the Spirit of God - or keeping in touch with the very power and mind of God to discern what to do at what time and when.

God's power is awesome.  if you see it in motion in creation , that is evidence enough.  but we have the calendar which allows us to also see history - and history is divided into two sections.  BC and AD - before and after the death of our Savior.  that is enough for me to say that i believe he impacted this earth by his presence so much - that people down thru the ages have been willing to die for the christian belief.  why die?  well, they believe (as all saints have) that death is merely a benchmark to another place in our eternal life. that God has promised eternal life to those who follow His words (and read them to know what they say).  even if you have a mustard seed of faith and only read the 10 commandments (maybe buying a plaque) you have enough faith to move mountains.  (big problems in your life).  why?  because problems come often from disobeying our conscience and later from the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  if you go against the laws of God which are like the laws of gravity - it proves there is a higher being because you are not blessed.

i dare anyone to prove God by doing what he says and then seeing if they are blessed.  over a period of 10 years.  sometimes 1-2 days.  it just depends on your level of perseverance and faith.  no matter if you have wealth already - or are dirt poor.  you can always be blessed by God.  it might be the ability to be at peace mentally.  or, to be able to see needs and meet them for others.  there are many blessings that are unseen - but greatly cathartic to the human soul.

[m]

Give your personal definition.  No long, religion-based posts.  Just define "faith".

Oh wey,

What part of this request people don't understand? 

[johnny-boy]

Optimistic presumptions

I haven't been on this site in months. I see everyone is still having fun.

John