The real deal

[mcgillcomposer]

I am curious to know how many 'composers' on this forum are truly composers. I know I sound like a pompous prick, but what the hell, who cares...

So, simple question:

What is unusual about the chord in the woodwinds that opens the Allegretto of Beethoven's 7th symphony? Also, the movement could have started with the low strings omitting the first chord, but what makes Beethoven's final version (the one with the chord) better?

GO TEAM!

[ahinton]

I am curious to know how many 'composers' on this forum are truly composers. I know I sound like a pompous prick, but what the hell, who cares...

I'm not at all certain that you sound like one such, but then I'm not quite sure what you mean by your question in the first place, so it's no wonder I'm unsure of the first bit...

Best,

Alistair (who is truly a something-or-other...)

[mcgillcomposer]

I'm not at all certain that you sound like one such, but then I'm not quite sure what you mean by your question in the first place, so it's no wonder I'm unsure of the first bit...

Best,

Alistair (who is truly a something-or-other...)

What don't you understand about the question? I think it's fairly clear.

[ahinton]

What don't you understand about the question? I think it's fairly clear.

Quite simply, it is what you mean precisely by the term "truly composers"; perhaps my inability to understand the motivation behind your question is because I have never knowingly composed other than "truly"...

Best,

Alistair

[mcgillcomposer]

Quite simply, it is what you mean precisely by the term "truly composers"; perhaps my inability to understand the motivation behind your question is because I have never knowingly composed other than "truly"...

Best,

Alistair

I knew this was coming, and it's a valid point.

If you want to follow a simple definition, then anyone who writes music is a composer; however, this is the equivalent of saying that anyone who writes a poem is a poet. I am quite sure Shakespeare wouldn't like to be equated with Joe Blow. On a lesser level (I doubt there are any Beethovens here - myself included - for sheer statistical reasons, if nothing else), I think it is still important to distinguish those who have actually worked hard at acquiring a solid craft from those who compose music that a 4 year old could compose by accident.

There seems to be a very popular misconception that composers are simply born with all of their gifts in hand. As you know, even Mozart (arguably the greatest child prodigy of music in history) studied religiously, first with his father, and then with other contemporary masters (e.g. C.P.E. Bach, Salieri) and masters from the past (e.g. J.S. Bach). The point is, many composers (usually the ones of lesser ability) seem to think that they are channeling the voice of God when they couldn't even begin to go into detail about what is wonderful about a certain piece by, for example, J.S. Bach.

I think this is one of the very unfortunate outgrowths of post-modern thought: everything is equal and difference only arises in terms of subjective opinion. I think this a great assault and disrespect to great art.

[counterpoint]

Quite simply, it is what you mean precisely by the term "truly composers"; perhaps my inability to understand the motivation behind your question is because I have never knowingly composed other than "truly"...

Best,

Alistair

May I help to translate a bit...?  

He asks, if there is a composer in this forum, that is as smart as mcgillcomposer  

[pianistimo]

what's the question again?  mcgill, i do not have the score.  must look at one on-line somewhere's.  indiana state usually has them.

https://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/akx3424/large/index.html

the clarinets make this chord a sixth, right?  CM6.  hmmm.  tell us more.  i think you know what this sixth does to things.

ps whenever anyone dies in the philadelphia orchestra (or someone knows of someone who died) - they play this second movement of the seventh symphony.  is there some cure for death in it?

it was the first and last thing leonard bernstein conducted.  beethoven said of this work, 'it is one of my best works.'

[mcgillcomposer]

the clarinets make this chord a sixth, right?  CM6.  hmmm.  tell us more.  i think you know what this sixth does to things.

It's an a minor chord (the tonic) in second inversion. The clarinets are playing E and A...btw, that is a good place to look to find out what is so unique about the chord...hint hint...

[pianistimo]

ok.  here's my answer:

'in bach's time - the horns (natural horns - 'waldhorns') played harmonics often in the high ranges and were pitched by the pursing of the lips to play these harmonics.  so they often got harmonic parts.  this continued through mozarts time (although didn't mozart write some stuff for horns?) but by the time of beethoven - several improvements took place with the horns.  for one thing... they took up the role of melodist again because of the invention of the 'crook' which allowed the horns to play in any key.  also, the diameter of the coils ? (i know nothing about horns - i am repeating this stuff) - and the bell size did something, too - perhaps damage the harmonics ?  i'm guessing.

thus the inserted fourth - which tells everyone - lookee here - we are not merely harmonic producers - but we are melodists.

[counterpoint]

It's an a minor chord (the tonic) in root position. The clarinets are playing E and A...btw, that is a good place to look to find out what is so unique about the chord...hint hint...

If the corni play E as bass note, it's not a tonic but a dominant (quart sext) chord.

[pianowolfi]

If the corni play E as bass note, it's not a tonic but a dominant (quart sext) chord.

Yes that's what I thought too. A four-six chord.
As far as I remember Beethoven used to achieve special effects with the "natural" notes of the horns in this Symphony, for instance in the third mvt, m. 181 low g#, counting on the old natural horn without valves. this note sounds slightly "out of tune" on old horns.

[pianistimo]

schubert ripped this off of beethoven in his 'variations in Ab major for four hands' in the fifth variation.  a blatant plagarism - since schubert said already - he was haunted by this theme of beethoven's.  helene grimaud played some kind of variations on this theme in 1985.

back to the chord.  think think think.  C E GA  i think this is actually a III6 alternating with a bit of A C E G  or minor 7th chord  (showing happy/sad at the SAME time.  only what comes after determines what it shall be).

helene grimaud says that this piece's pulsation reminds her of a heartbeat.

[rc]

Hey Mcgill, what would you recommend for someone who's ignorant as to what makes a good composition good, would like to appreciate the finer points of the art, but cannot get into university anytime soon?

(me)

[pianowolfi]

back to the chord.  think think think.  C E GA 

It's E-A-C, the clarinets are transposing instruments and the horns as well.

[pianistimo]

but, the score i'm looking at is already transposed for them - and so to put them into thirds is the way the chord is read, right?  to determine the chord in the key of 'a' minor.

all i know is that it ends the same mysterious way that it started.  not exactly in major.  not exactly in minor.  sort of undecided.  that mysterious i  or III sound.

[pianowolfi]

it's pure a minor, no g in it. As Mcgill said the clarinets play e and a. and the horns play e.

[pianistimo]

but the clarinets have G and C in the indiana site score.  and, if you listen to the recording - it sounds a bit C majorish - until the violins enter.  perhaps because the e horns are playing octave C's? and, ALL the other instruments have a C in their thirds (2-part).

[pianowolfi]

No. the clarinets play e and c, as i said. "clarinet in a" says the score. That means the clarinetist plays "C" on his instrument, the fingering for "c" and it sounds a minor third lower, that is A. And the horns in E play "C" and it sounds a minor sixth lower, that is E in this case. Usually horns are notated in F so they sound a perfect fifth lower as they are notated. It's like a tablature notation. And the conducter and the reader of the score are the poor guys who need to transpose, not the clarinet player.

[pianistimo]

i thought that was in a score that would have the clef for that instrument.  this has the treble clef and is for a quick piano read, isn't it?  otherwise - you'd have to transpose a lot of instrumentation to sightread the score at the piano.

[pianowolfi]

i thought that was in a score that would have the clef for that instrument.  this has the treble clef and is for a quick piano read.  otherwise - you'd have to transpose a lot of instrumentation to sightread the score at the piano.

the indiana score you linked is a full orchestra score

here is a recording

https://www.columbia.edu/cu/cuo/F2001-7.mp3

[mcgillcomposer]

Hey Mcgill, what would you recommend for someone who's ignorant as to what makes a good composition good, would like to appreciate the finer points of the art, but cannot get into university anytime soon?

(me)

Study the music of great composers or find a really good teacher. I didn't learn anything at McGill in terms of composition.

[pianistimo]

it's a reduction as i see it.

ok.  my final answer is the same.  an 'eight-six chord' - as nicholas temperley puts it (the C's surrounding it).  you either hear C major or a minor - but not E in any form that i hear.

[mcgillcomposer]

If the corni play E as bass note, it's not a tonic but a dominant (quart sext) chord.

Yes, an a minor 6/4 chord, sorry about that.

[mcgillcomposer]

it's a reduction as i see it.

ok.  my final answer is the same.  an 'eight-six chord' - as nicholas temperley puts it. 

It's a 6/4 chord...that's a fact, not something to discuss. If you need further verification, check out Liszt's transcription for piano.

[pianistimo]

i'm talking about the low C's that the cornets in E play as surrounding the i 6/4.  it's still a minor but within C major.  it's a major/minor effect.  thus the term 'eight-six.'

[mcgillcomposer]

ok.  here's my answer:

'in bach's time - the horns (natural horns - 'waldhorns') played harmonics often in the high ranges and were pitched by the pursing of the lips to play these harmonics.  so they often got harmonic parts.  this continued through mozarts time (although didn't mozart write some stuff for horns?) but by the time of beethoven - several improvements took place with the horns.  for one thing... they took up the role of melodist again because of the invention of the 'crook' which allowed the horns to play in any key.  also, the diameter of the coils ? (i know nothing about horns - i am repeating this stuff) - and the bell size did something, too - perhaps damage the harmonics ?  i'm guessing.

thus the inserted fourth - which tells everyone - lookee here - we are not merely harmonic producers - but we are melodists.

Haha...interesting answer, but I'm not so sure Beethoven was an activist for horn rights.  

[mcgillcomposer]

i'm talking about the low C's that the cornets in E play as surrounding the i 6/4.  it's still a minor but within C major.  it's a major/minor effect.  thus the term 'eight-six.'

There is no G; how can it be C major-ish? Also, the horns (corni in E) play E's, not C's.

Even so, if there was a G (which there is NOT) it would be a six-four-three chord.

[pianowolfi]

There is no G; how can it be C major-ish? Also, the horns (corni in E) play E's, not C's.

exactly

[mcgillcomposer]

Anyway, moving back to the original questions, I'll give you two hints:

1) Look at how the chord is spaced in the oboes and clarinets...this is NOT the 'textbook' spacing.

2) Think about how the chord at the beginning affects the rest of the movement. There are two main reasons why it is, in a sense, a stroke of genius.

[pianistimo]

just because you yell loudly does not mean you are right.  the chord we are speaking of is E G A C correct?  and YES there is a G in the score.  this is a i 6/4 (you can add 3 if you like - SINCE THAT IS THE G in i 6/4 chord of a minor) in the key of a minor.  but, it is within 4-5 C's that are surrounding it.  (octave C's at the bass - a C in every section - and a C near top of the chord).

now, when he goes into the A major section in the middle of the piece - it is as if he is saying - watch me - i can go from a minor/C major  to A major/c# minor.  a very elusive thing to determine the key in this piece because of a lot of accidentals.

the stroke of genius is the feeling of not being in a key until he says what it is and makes it so.

PS if you do not believe there is a G in the first chord - please type out all the letters of the chord from bass to treble (in each instrument) and prove it.  (and don't try to change the indiana uni score because it's already translated).

[mcgillcomposer]

just because you yell loudly does not mean you are right.  the chord we are speaking of is E G A C correct?  and YES there is a G in the score.  this is a i 6/4 (you can add 3 if you like - SINCE THAT IS THE G) in the key of a minor.  but, it is within 4-5 C's that are surrounding it.  (octave C's at the bass - a C in every section - and a C near top of the chord).

now, when he goes into the A major section in the middle of the piece - it is as if he is saying - watch me - i can go from a minor/C major  to A major/c# minor.  a very elusive thing to determine the key in this piece because of a lot of accidentals.

the stroke of genius is the feeling of not being in a key until he says what it is and makes it so.

Ya...not even close, but thanks for coming out.

Listen to the piece...if you have ears, you'll notice that there is no G. And the key of the piece is apparent from the very beginning.

The chord is as follows (from bottom to top):

E (horn 2), A (bassoon 2), C (bassoon 1), E (horn 2 and clarinet 2), A (clarinet 1), C (oboe 2), E (oboe 1)

[pianistimo]

clarinet #2, i believe is g.  you have a bad score.

https://www.johnmcgann.com/clefs.html

to further 'reduce' a score that has already been reduced is laughable.

[pianowolfi]

It is of course an a minor 6/4 and it appears at the end again. After a 6/4 we would expect a V or V⁷ chord. So the whole thing has no resolution to the keynote. It's a funeral march after all. That is of course not all you may mean. But perhaps a part?

[pianistimo]

the other part of it is that there are many C's (number of a certain note usually indicates key) - so we have a dual tonality sort of.  agreed that beethoven first wrote this as 'andante' which could be a faster funeral march tempo - but he upped it to 'allegretto' but kept the somber mood.  matching a 'heartbeat,' as helene grimaud says.

[mcgillcomposer]

It is of course an a minor 6/4 and it appears at the end again. After a 6/4 we would expect a V or V⁷ chord. So the whole thing has no resolution to the keynote. It's a funeral march after all. That is of course not all you may mean. But perhaps a part?

This is certainly a portion of it...look at how the third movement resolves that 6/4...to F major! It is a perfect contrast of colour, and in one beat Beethoven gives us the character of an entire movement (the 3rd)...a brightening of spirits, per se.

So, you have discovered that the opening chord gave Beethoven the idea for the ending (which is quite original in itself...the ending, I mean). Now, think about what other important role it plays, even before it is used to create the wonderful ending of the movement.

Did you notice what is unusual about the chord spacing in the clarinet and oboe parts?

[mcgillcomposer]

clarinet #2, i believe is g.  you have a bad score.

Listen to the movement or look at Liszt's transcription. If I have a bad score and bad ears, then so did Liszt. Not so sure it would be wise to go down that path.

[mcgillcomposer]

the other part of it is that there are many C's (number of a certain note usually indicates key) - so we have a dual tonality sort of.  agreed that beethoven first wrote this as 'andante' which could be a faster funeral march tempo - but he upped it to 'allegretto' but kept the somber mood.  matching a 'heartbeat,' as helene grimaud says.

Actually, the E is emphasized, not the C.

[invictious]

I am a composer here.
I am just too lazy to input the notes into Sibelius though, because my scores are generally very complex..

[mcgillcomposer]

I am a composer here.
I am just too lazy to input the notes into Sibelius though, because my scores are generally very complex..

What does this have to do with the thread topic? In any case, a complex score doesn't necessarily mean a good score.

[pianistimo]

are you saying the liszt transciption was better?  (in that he omitted the G?)  liszt was ruining this piece, imo, by doing that.  but, no matter.  it let people feel the key like they wanted to.  this wasn't beethoven's intent.  here's the score:

https://imslp.net/images/e/e7/Beethoven_-_Symphony_No.7_Mvt.II_(ed._Unger).pdf

here's liszt's:
https://imslp.net/images/9/91/Beethoven-Liszt_Symphony-7.pdf

[mcgillcomposer]

are you saying the liszt transciption was better?  (in that he omitted the G?)  liszt was ruining this piece, imo, by doing that.  but, no matter.  it let people feel the key like they wanted to.  this wasn't beethoven's intent.  here's the score:

https://imslp.net/images/e/e7/Beethoven_-_Symphony_No.7_Mvt.II_(ed._Unger).pdf

Ya..clarinets in A, meaning transposed down a third. Horns in E, trnasposed down a minor sixth...there is no G.

And Liszt's intention was not to change the symphonies, nor was it to make his own interpretation of them. Read the preface that he wrote to the transcriptions.

Don't tell me that Karajan omitted it as well...

[pianowolfi]

Did you notice what is unusual about the chord spacing in the clarinet and oboe parts?

I tried to find it but so far I admittedly have no clue. but i have another "real deal" question for you. What is "unusual" (meaning genius) in the recapitulation of Beethoven's Hammerklavier- Sonata op. 106, first mvt?

[pianistimo]

the clarinets are a fourth apart and the oboes a third.  hmm.  i still hear the major/minor sound in karijan's performance (very good, btw) - but admit that perhaps what i thought this was (actually, as i read it - untransposed for instrumentation - and completely concert-pitch) was not.  but, i hear the concert pitches of a minor and C major.  how can this be.  two different sounds from the one chord at the very beginning?  listen carefully and you'll hear the C's which make it sound major/minorish.

ok.  you're saying the score is 'transposed' for instruments so that the pitch written (G and C) is read by the clarinet's in A as ... E and A).  is this correct.  if so - i stand corrected - as i thought that this score was a reduction that the piano could easily sightread without needing to modify the notes.

[mcgillcomposer]

I tried to find it but so far I admittedly have no clue. but i have another "real deal" question for you. What is "unusual" (meaning genius) in the recapitulation of Beethoven's Hammerklavier- Sonata op. 106, first mvt?

EVERYTHING! ... but seriously...

OK, I am going to assume you are not referring to the coda.

It is difficult to answer your question because there are so many wonderful details in the recapitulation of this sonata. Of course, the most obvious one is the key scheme. There are many things here, but the most salient is the booming repetition of the theme in b minor (the sonata is in Bb!). This isn't ingenious, however, simply because it is a far-removed key (anyone could have done that). It is the way in which it follows from the key scheme of the entire movement. Instead of the standard dominant, Beethoven uses the submediant of G major in the exposition. To follow with standard trip to the subdominant in the recapitulation would have been too bland for all that had happened in the earlier parts of the piece. Beethoven makes the passage in b minor extra powerful by approaching it from Gb major in stead of F#. In context this produces a striking contrast.

Like I said, there are TONS of fantastic details in the recap...so not sure exactly which one you're after.

[mcgillcomposer]

the clarinets are a fourth apart and the oboes a third.  hmm.  i still hear the major/minor sound in karijan's performance (very good, btw) - but admit that perhaps what i thought this was (actually, as i read it - untransposed for instrumentation - and completely concert-pitch) was not.  but, i hear the concert pitches of a minor and C major.  how can this be.  two different sounds from the one chord at the very beginning?  listen carefully and you'll hear the C's which make it sound major/minorish.

ok.  you're saying the score is 'transposed' for instruments so that the pitch written (G and C) is read by the clarinet's in A as ... E and A).  is this correct.  if so - i stand corrected - as i thought that this score was a reduction that the piano could easily sightread without needing to modify the notes.

I hear As Cs and Es 

The E is certainly the note Beethoven wanted to emphasize, but I cannot argue that you don't hear the Cs...they are there after all. This said, Beethoven has the E in the soprano and in the bass...

[pianistimo]

ok.  but, how so in the bass.  i am confused about transposition since liszt seems to have written A's into the bass line (for corni in E).  now, if he transposes the corni in e down a third - why are the clarinets in A also transposed down a third?  one or the other is off, isn't it.  i'm so confused now.  unless they are both meant to simply be transposed down a third.

pianowolfi, why did you ahve to bring the recapitulation of beethoven's sonata opus 106 into this mess?   

ok.  as i see it  - da   da da da   da  is then a minor to C major  and so forth.  it's a sort of ploy with thirds. 

[mcgillcomposer]

ok.  but, how so in the bass.  i am confused about transposition since liszt seems to have written A's into the bass line (for corni in E).  now, if he transposes the corni in e down a third - why are the clarinets in A also transposed down a third?  one or the other is off, isn't it.  i'm so confused now.  unless they are both meant to simply be transposed down a third.

pianowolfi, why did you ahve to bring the recapitulation of beethoven's sonata opus 106 into this mess?   

Looks like Es to me

[pianistimo]

in the key of a minor - the corni come in on E's?  it must be late.  i must need some rest.  i feed aggravated and egmonticzied.  (means i feel like smashing eggs).  somehow, the karijan video calmed me.  it actually is putting me to sleep.

 

[mcgillcomposer]

in the key of a minor - the corni come in on E's?  it must be late.  i must need some rest.  i feed aggravated and egmonticzied.  (means i feel like smashing eggs).  somehow, the karijan video calmed me.  it actually is putting me to sleep.

 

Haha...get some rest, we can continue this another time.

In any case, the actual inversion of the chord isn't as important as the fact that it is there. It actually seems out of context if you don't play the entire movement. But in the end, it turns out to be genius...why?

[pianowolfi]

EVERYTHING! ... but seriously...

OK, I am going to assume you are not referring to the coda.

It is difficult to answer your question because there are so many wonderful details in the recapitulation of this sonata. Of course, the most obvious one is the key scheme. There are many things here, but the most salient is the booming repetition of the theme in b minor (the sonata is in Bb!). This isn't ingenious, however, simply because it is a far-removed key (anyone could have done that). It is the way in which it follows from the key scheme of the entire movement. Instead of the standard dominant, Beethoven uses the submediant of G major in the exposition. To follow with standard trip to the subdominant in the recapitulation would have been too bland for all that had happened in the earlier parts of the piece. Beethoven makes the passage in b minor extra powerful by approaching it from Gb major in stead of F#. In context this produces a striking contrast.

Like I said, there are TONS of fantastic details in the recap...so not sure exactly which one you're after.

In principle it is the b minor repetition, you describe that wonderfully, thanks i couldn't have said this that well yet.