Counterpoint

[pianochick93]

My teacher told me about this, because she was learning it at uni, and it seems really interesting. Does anyone know some good books or resources that I could use apart from hers to try and learn it?

Thanks

Ella

[faulty_damper]

It's actually easier to learn counterpoint at the piano than to read a book about it.  For some reason, using books actually makes understanding it at an experiential level virtually impossible and thus no real intellectual understanding based on experience.  Books teach it intellectually, but experience is far more powerful.

Here's how to do it on your own:
1.  Play a melody on the piano.  A short one would do nicely.
2.  Play the first note of the melody and find another note that sounds good with it.
3.  Play the next note of the melody and find another note that sounds good with it.
4.  Play the next note of the melody and find another note that sounds good with it
5.  etc.

Now play the melody again with all the notes that you found that sounded good.  The melody obviously sounded good, but did the notes that sounded good before sound good now that you are playing them in real time?  Probably and probably not.  If not, find out what other notes would sound good with that note in the sequence.

Just make sure the melody is the same since it sounds good.  Then find the notes that can be played with it that sounds good.  It's actually very easy.  Once you've found one that sounds good, write it out.  Then try another melody and repeat the process.

In a very short time, you'll discover that some sounds sound better than others in specific sequences.  Children can do this relatively easily and with enough experience can tell you the "voice-leading" rules and guidelines without ever having read a theory book on it.  This is actually very cool to have 8 year olds tell you things you previously read in a book (actually, many books) without actually reading them at all.

[spaciiey]

bach made some very good use of counterpoint... have a listen - or play - of some of his stuff

[term]

faulty damper is very right. It's an easy and quite good method to learn counterpoint. You will get the idea as soon as you already know which notes sound good together, so you can focus on the line and not only on the harmony. Of course, good is relative and you may find dissonance much more interesting than consonance...or a mix of both. The more freely you define harmony, the more liberties you will have with the line, but it can also be very interesting to set yourself the limitations of tonality or even a medieval kind of tonality where you stay very close to the tonic at all times. Or a type of counterpoint where octaves, fifths, fourths and sevenths are the primary intervals... Experiment with it and you will find a whole new universe outside of the ..."standard" homophonic ways. Never forget, however, that you can only be good at polyphony if you understand it's homophonic aspect. Or, with other words, always keep track of the overall idea that actually holds your lines together.

[pianochick93]

I get what Faulty Damper is saying, but aren't there rules that apply to things such as intervals and sequences that should be avoided etc.

I think one of them that she mentioned was not to have sequential octaves or 3rds. I can't really remember though.

[term]

The rules changed over the centuries. You may use whatever intervals you like, or whatever intervals your music requires. If you want, use fifths and octaves as much as you want, you'll have less voice seperation and more unity. Depends what you're trying to do.

[amelialw]

you will need to learn it anyway, if you are following one of the syllubuses.

the easiest way is to take a look at J.S Bach's minuets,sarabandes,fugues etc. There's no particular book that I would reccomend, in fact I did'nt even use a textboook. Just went for a 2 hr class, got some important notes about 12 pages, did a few exam papers and I still did well for my exam.

The easiest would be that if you have perfect pitch because you would be able to tell how the piece would sound like in  the end.

You may use whatever intervals you like, or whatever intervals your music requires. If you want, use fifths and octaves as much as you want, you'll have less voice seperation and more unity. Depends what you're trying to do.
this is'nt true.

[term]

hardly a useful comment. 
edit: i refer to the "this isnt true" part.

[faulty_damper]

I get what Faulty Damper is saying, but aren't there rules that apply to things such as intervals and sequences that should be avoided etc.

I think one of them that she mentioned was not to have sequential octaves or 3rds. I can't really remember though.

There are no rules, per se.  These "rules" only came about through intellectual analysis.  Most people, with enough experience, will understand that some things just sound bad when played together, which is why children are so easy to teach counterpoint to.  Adults, however, want to be told how to do it including the "rules" because they think they are saving time - quite the contrary.

Children will tell you parallel 5ths don't sound that good, within the context of diatonic scales.  They will also tell you they prefer little jumping of the melody, moving by step instead of multiple leaps.  They will also tell you that octaves seems to make the sound disappear and will avoid it.

They can tell you this because they have experienced it first-hand and made many "mistakes" and then found better solutions.  These solutions are what adults call "rules" and "guidelines".  Absolutely useless unless you actually experience them.

[amelialw]

there are rules regarding certain intervals not being allowed to use...I forgot which ones but anyway, sorry I did go a little off topic.

my point though is that counterpoint is'nt that hard at all. All you need is a few examples, exam papers, a few notes and you are ready to go.

[pianochick93]

Thanks everyone. I am seeing my teacher again on Friday, and hopefully going into the city on Saturday, so I will see if the people at the music store have old papers or something.

The best thing is that I get the next 2 weeks sibling free so I can practice and experiment without getting the usual "Ella, you're being boring, you suck" kinda thing, it gets on my nerves.

[thalberg]

A really good but really heavy (and expensive) counterpoint book is by someone with the last name "Gauldin."  It's called "Eighteenth Century Counterpoint," I think.

[term]

there are rules regarding certain intervals not being allowed to use...I forgot which ones but anyway, sorry I did go a little off topic.

As i already said, rules changed over the centuries. You may restrict yourself to a rule or use no rule at all and simply do your own counterpoint, as it is per definition just note vs. note. As far as i know, we have today come to a point where you may freely use whatever counterpoint you like.
Free youself from the baroque-bach idea of counterpoint. Just go several hundred years back and look what kind of intervals they used, or have a look at dissonant counterpoint. Every rule has it's purpose, if you intend something different you may break it.

[dnephi]

I recommend a study of the 48 preludes and fugues.

[mcgillcomposer]

Find a good teacher who can help you. Learning counterpoint via the rules will teach you nothing but what NOT to do. You need to learn from someone who has mastered it to a point of knowing when it is OK to break rules, and more than this, who can give you principles (not rules) that are transferable to ANY style.

If you can't find a teacher, some excellent texts that use this approach are as follows:

Kochelin's book on counterpoint (hard to find)
Belkin's book on counterpoint (Google it - 'Alan Belkin counterpoint') - you may want to e-mail him for some really good advice - he is a composer and trust me, he has an impeccable musical craft.

[amanfang]

Your teacher is probably taking a course in 18th century counterpoint, particularly if this is at the undergrad level. 

She is studying primarily what "rules" were followed when Bach wrote his music.  This would be quite different from the rules in 16th or 17th century music.  If you study 18th century formulas for fugue writing, you will discover that Beethoven and anyone after him did not follow these formulas strictly.  Rules of composition from the 18th century are not followed today, unless you are doing a writing assignment for your 18th century counterpoint class. 
If you want to study intervals, etc, start with the 2 part inventions of Bach.  You can also benefit from studying these by learning about motives and how Bach "developed" them (not in the Sonata-allegro development sense) through various contrapuntal devices like sequence, diminution, inversion, augmentation, etc. 

[faulty_damper]

Your teacher is probably taking a course in 18th century counterpoint, particularly if this is at the undergrad level. 

She is studying primarily what "rules" were followed when Bach wrote his music.  This would be quite different from the rules in 16th or 17th century music.  If you study 18th century formulas for fugue writing, you will discover that Beethoven and anyone after him did not follow these formulas strictly.  Rules of composition from the 18th century are not followed today, unless you are doing a writing assignment for your 18th century counterpoint class. 
If you want to study intervals, etc, start with the 2 part inventions of Bach.  You can also benefit from studying these by learning about motives and how Bach "developed" them (not in the Sonata-allegro development sense) through various contrapuntal devices like sequence, diminution, inversion, augmentation, etc. 

There is, of course, the issue that most pianists NEVER think about the intervals when playing an invention and the like - they just read and play it.  Just like most pianists NEVER think about harmony even though pianists should have an insurpassable understanding of it since they play the piano - pianists are in the same boat as singers and instrumentalists.

Counterpoint must be taught/self-taught and it can be done so surprisingly easily.  Books are terrible for acquisition of this experience and you are mostly left with "rules" and "guidelines" that could have been easily discovered through actual experience.  Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for actual experience and in learning about sound, books don't make any.

[mcgillcomposer]

For the millionth time - the best way to learn these things is through composition. Unless you're actually DOING it, how are you going to gain a natural feeling for what works and what doesn't work (and I don't mean in the sense of rules...you have to HEAR it).

[pianochick93]

I've started composition for a school project, and I'm arranging some songs by ear for flute duet, so I'm definately getting more knowledge of what notes sound good where. All the same, everyones help/suggestions have been great as well.

Thanks a lot.

[faulty_damper]

For the millionth time - the best way to learn these things is through composition. Unless you're actually DOING it, how are you going to gain a natural feeling for what works and what doesn't work (and I don't mean in the sense of rules...you have to HEAR it).

But this is like saying the best way to learn English is to write English.  Written language is another language that relates to the spoken.  The written language is a result of the spoken, not the other way around.

[mcgillcomposer]

But this is like saying the best way to learn English is to write English.  Written language is another language that relates to the spoken.  The written language is a result of the spoken, not the other way around.

This isn't really the best analogy - a spoken language has many more restrictions than the western musical language. For example, in music, any note can follow or be combined with any other - it is what comes after that determines whether or not it works - this is not true of languages.

It is more like exercise. The more you 'flex' your counterpoint muscles, per se, the better you get. It is a matter of making friends with the notes so that they are there when you need them. There is a reason that, at first, none of these disciplines were separated from composition.

[faulty_damper]

But this sounds too much like "paper music" to just write something down without knowing how it sounds like.  Given the use of diatonic scales, it's pretty easy to figure out what works or not in counterpoint.  And it would only require just a bit of effort to write out what works on a piece of paper, thus making the written association between experience and the abstract transcription of that experience.

This experience is especially important because most pianists don't know how to listen (they don't really need to be that attentive).  Most pianists can't tell you anything about the harmony or any other compositional methods/devices in a piece they play.  So how is someone who wants to understand counterpoint going to do so if they don't understand the relationship of sounds and how these sounds are written?

[pianochick93]

Excuse my ignorance, but what are diatonic scales?

[zheer]

Excuse my ignorance, but what are diatonic scales?

 The ordinary scale you hear in a Mozart or Beethoven sonata.(double check)

[mcgillcomposer]

But this sounds too much like "paper music" to just write something down without knowing how it sounds like.  Given the use of diatonic scales, it's pretty easy to figure out what works or not in counterpoint.  And it would only require just a bit of effort to write out what works on a piece of paper, thus making the written association between experience and the abstract transcription of that experience.

This experience is especially important because most pianists don't know how to listen (they don't really need to be that attentive).  Most pianists can't tell you anything about the harmony or any other compositional methods/devices in a piece they play.  So how is someone who wants to understand counterpoint going to do so if they don't understand the relationship of sounds and how these sounds are written?

Who said anything about not hearing it? Composers don't just sit @ their desk and take dictation - they often sit at a piano and LISTEN to what they're writing.

[faulty_damper]

But it was referring to someone who wants to learn counterpoint, not someone who already has experience with it.

Once counterpoint is learned through experience, it's pretty easy to inner-hear the intervals just by looking at it.  There are only so many intervals that a given note can be related to, even less if it's just a diatonic scale.  And certain intervals have certain aural characteristics that lead to predictable outcomes, like implied dominant to tonic relationships, etc.

It's so much easier to learn counterpoint using a piano to discover the "rules" and "guidelines" on your own.  Reading a textbook doesn't give you any aural experience; all it gives you are the analyses of previously written music of a certain style which are ridiculously simplified into these "rules" and "guidelines".  When one writes music using these "rules" and "guidelines" the person doesn't even have to know how it sounds like, as is often the case in universities and conservatories.  They don't have to have touched a piano or sang the parts, they could possibly not be musicians and yet they can write something that is free of "errors" - Paper music.

Actual experience is crucial for understanding.

[mcgillcomposer]

Actual experience is crucial for understanding.

Isn't that the point I was trying to make all along? I said the best way to learn is through composing...which does involve just sitting at the piano and listening to various combinations a lot of the time. It has nothing to do with 'paper music', although I definitely know what you mean by it.

[pianochick93]

The ordinary scale you hear in a Mozart or Beethoven sonata.(double check)

Sorry, that doesn't help much, I play and listen to very little beethoven, and I have only played one of mozart's sonatas.

[faulty_damper]

Sorry, that doesn't help much, I play and listen to very little beethoven, and I have only played one of mozart's sonatas.

It's the major and minor scales in Western classical music.  If you can play C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, you've just played a major diatonic scale.

[pianochick93]

Oh,
I'll remember that they are called that.

Thanks

[ksnmohan]

Sorry I have come in a bit too late into this discussion - faulty_damper, term and amanfang have indeed explained it very aptly, I cannot add anything.

I have only one observation to make on the subject of "rules" in modern music - with the emergence of Arnold Schoenberg  and the 12 tone scale (as against the septatonic and the still earlier pentatonic scales) the rules for "melody" and "harmony" are today as infinite as world music itself. So any note you choose as "counterpoint" is fine to go along with  the  respective "harmony" at that "point of time" behind  "that bit" of  the melody (however much the overall effect  may sound discorded and unmelodical!).  Let us admit - there has been a sea change between the piano works of Bach and Prokofiev!

[mcgillcomposer]

Sorry I have come in a bit too late into this discussion - faulty_damper, term and amanfang have indeed explained it very aptly, I cannot add anything.

I have only one observation to make on the subject of "rules" in modern music - with the emergence of Arnold Schoenberg  and the 12 tone scale (as against the septatonic and the still earlier pentatonic scales) the rules for "melody" and "harmony" are today as infinite as world music itself. So any note you choose as "counterpoint" is fine to go along with  the  respective "harmony" at that "point of time" behind  "that bit" of  the melody (however much the overall effect  may sound discorded and unmelodical!).  Let us admit - there has been a sea change between the piano works of Bach and Prokofiev!

Sure, but it still doesn't mean that anything goes. In terms of composition, one may begin with absolutely anything, but he or she must follow-up with something that makes sense.

[ksnmohan]

I fully agree with mcgillcomposer, being personally a staunch supporter of melody and harmony in music.

pianochick should be starting listening to and playing (just as an example,Bach's 48 Preludes) to understand point & counterpoint. But as she starts composing - which I think is a must for any serious musician who wants to unravel the deep fathoms of the music ocean - she can experiment keeping in mind my observations on "rules" - not necessarily incorporate them if it results in  something which doesn't make "sense". 

But how many of our today's composers make "sense"? (I can only refer to pop music, as we don't hear much of "contemporary classical" works - music  since 1975 as the definition goes - besides  Pierre Boulez and Henryk Górecki?)

Where have the melody & harmony gone in today's western pop? No wonder music lovers are looking elsewhere to find them e.g. in "world music", be it Indian , Sufi or North African.

[mcgillcomposer]

But how many of our today's composers make "sense"? (I can only refer to pop music, as we don't hear much of "contemporary classical" works - music  since 1975 as the definition goes - besides  Pierre Boulez and Henryk Górecki?)

Some of it makes sense - a lot of it is sh*t...but that, I think, is true of the music of any age. I think the problem is slightly worse today however, because, for some reason, philosophy and mathematics got thrown into the bargain. This allows people with no craft to hide behind pseudo-intellectualism.