Music analogies (inspired by soliloquy's IQ analogies)

[thalberg]

Okay, I'm making these up.  See who can get them. 

1.  minor triad : major triad :: half-diminished seventh chord: ??

2.   augmented triad : whole-tone scale :: diminished seventh chord:??

3.   peasants : G major :: nobility: ??

4.   Painter : Mathis :: Jeweler: ??

5.  Pedals : Fazioli :: strings: ??

6.  Chopin 2nd Ballade : Robert Schumann :: Beethoven Emperor Concerto : ??

7.  Linear Intervallic Patterns : Schenker : triad inversions:??

8.  Major sixth : augmented fourth :: major third: ??

9.   Young Chang : pianos :: Lang Lang: ??

10.  black dress : Marth Argerich :: red socks: ??

This one is for soliloquy:

11.  strong : Herculean :: loud : ??

And this one is to see if we have any truly unusual folks around here:

12:  iv6-V : phrygian :: iii6-I : ??

That one may likely be posted here with no answer for the next year or more.


Answers:


1.  dominant seventh (see explanation on page 2 of this thread)
2. octatonic scale (quantum)
3.  E flat major (quantum)
4.  Cardillac (rondes des sylphes)
5.  Bluthner (leachim)
6. Archduke Rudolf (retrouvailles)
7.  Rameau (amanfang)
8.  diminished fifth (michael langlois)
9.  Pianists  (quantum)
10.  Thibaudet  (leachim)
11. Stentorian (thalberg)
12.  Slovenian

[quantum]

1. Minor Major 7th chord

2. Diminished scale (or what classical music theory labels an octatonic scale)

3. E-flat major

9. Pianists

[thalberg]

1. Minor Major 7th chord

2. Diminished scale (or what classical music theory labels an octatonic scale)

3. E-flat major

9. Pianists

Yay, someone responded!!   It's been hours.

1--incorrect, try again.
2--correct, it is octatonic
3--correct
9--correct

Nice work!!  This is fun.

[pianistimo]

are you calling argerich the wicked witch of the west?

#1 V4/3
#4 appraisal
#5 extra features?  (fourth pedal)
#7 analytic techniques
#8 italian sixth

[thalberg]

are you calling argerich the wicked witch of the west?

LOL!

[quantum]

5. Roslau

[thalberg]

5. Roslau

Wow, I didn't even know what Roslau was.  Now I do!  Good research, quantum!

Great guess, but not the answer.   

[thalberg]

are you calling argerich the wicked witch of the west?

#1 V4/3
#4 appraisal
#5 extra features?  (fourth pedal)
#7 analytic techniques
#8 italian sixth

Sorry, none of these is correct.

[leahcim]

1.  minor triad : major triad :: half-diminished seventh chord: ??

maj 7 b5?

8.  Major sixth : augmented fourth :: major third: ??

minor second?

10.  black dress : Marth Argerich :: red socks: ??

Jean-Yves Thibaudet?

[timothy42b]

Jean-Yves Thibaudet?

Don't know him.  Did you mean Jean Yves Theriault?  Awesome. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

10. black dress : Marth Argerich :: red socks: ??

Jean-Yves Thibaudet?

Yes, but he gave up red socks to mark the new millennium. Now he wears purple ones (I think) 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Okay, I'm making these up.  See who can get them. 

4.   Painter : Mathis :: Jeweler: ??

Cardillac, I think: Hindemith operas.

[thalberg]

1.  minor triad : major triad :: half-diminished seventh chord: ??

maj 7 b5?

8.  Major sixth : augmented fourth :: major third: ??

minor second?

10.  black dress : Marth Argerich :: red socks: ??

Jean-Yves Thibaudet?

1. Incorrect.
8.  Incorrect.
10.  Correct!!  Hooray.  That's exactly who I was imagining.  Although, I was unaware he had switched to purple.

I knew 1 and 8 would be tricky.  I was trying to be that way.....but the answers are indeed crystal clear once you hear them.

[thalberg]

Cardillac, I think: Hindemith operas.

YES!!!  Cardillac.  Well done.   

[wotgoplunk]

These are guesses, I really have no clue 


5.  Pedals : Fazioli :: strings: Whoever added the fifth string to the violin?

6.  Erich Korngold : music publishing :: Agnes De Mille: choreography?

8.  Major sixth : augmented fourth :: major third: Diminished sixth?

[thalberg]

These are guesses, I really have no clue 


5.  Pedals : Fazioli :: strings: Whoever added the fifth string to the violin?

6.  Erich Korngold : music publishing :: Agnes De Mille: choreography?

8.  Major sixth : augmented fourth :: major third: Diminished sixth?

Sorry, none are correct.  But you know who agnes de mille is!  You're close on that one.

(When a reasonable amount of time has passed, I'll post the correct answers.  As of now, It's been less than 24 hours.)

I know these  are hard...as I said, they were inspired by soliloquy's post, which was insanely hard...

[quantum]

1. Major 7th chord

8. Major 6th ? (intervalic note relationships within a 7th chord?)

[thalberg]

1. Major 7th chord

8. Major 6th ? (intervalic note relationships within a 7th chord?)

Sorry!  Neither is correct.  Good tries, though.   

[soliloquy]

8- diminished second

[Kassaa]

8 - Wagner..Tristan chord..?

[quantum]

1. Major 7 flat 5 chord

8. Diminished 11th (or simplified to Dim 4th)

[mike_lang]

Okay, I'm making these up.  See who can get them. 

1.  minor triad : major triad :: half-diminished seventh chord: ??

2.   augmented triad : whole-tone scale :: diminished seventh chord:??

3.   peasants : G major :: nobility: ??

4.   Painter : Mathis :: Jeweler: ??

5.  Pedals : Fazioli :: strings: ??

6.  Erich Korngold : music publishing :: Agnes De Mille: ??

7.  Linear Intervallic Patterns : Schenker : triad inversions:??

8.  Major sixth : augmented fourth :: major third: ??

9.   Young Chang : pianos :: Lang Lang: ??

10.  black dress : Marth Argerich :: red socks: ??


Answers:


1.
2. octatonic scale (quantum)
3.  E flat major (quantum)
4.  Cardillac (rondes des sylphes)
5. 
6.
7.
8.
9.  Pianists  (quantum)
10.  Thibaudet  (leachim)

1. French augmented sixth
5. Bösendorfer
8. Diminished fifth

[thalberg]

Soliloquy, Kasaa, quantum, sorry!  Incorrect.

Michael langlois

1-incorrect
5-incorrect (unless bosendorfer does what the piano company I'm thinking of does, which I don't think they do)
8-CORRECT!!

Diminished fifth.  Why?  Because a major sixth is a resolution of the augmented fourth, while a major third is a resolution of the diminished fifth.  (minor sixths and minor thirds can also be resolutions.  Augmented fourths resolve out; diminished fifths resolve in.)


Also, I'm thinking number 6 might be too esoteric.....would anyone vote for me to replace it?

[soliloquy]

You should make these so that there can only be one answer.  It seems like there are multiple equally correct answers depending on the logic one uses.

[wotgoplunk]

Also, I'm thinking number 6 might be too esoteric.....would anyone vote for me to replace it?

Well we know who she is. We can do more than that.

For the 5th...Fazioli added both a fourth pedal, so who added more strings/violin strings?

[mike_lang]

Soliloquy, Kasaa, quantum, sorry!  Incorrect.

Michael langois

1-incorrect
5-incorrect (unless bosendorfer does what the piano company I'm thinking of does, which I don't think they do)
8-CORRECT!!

Diminished fifth.  Why?  Because a major sixth is a resolution of the augmented fourth, while a major third is a resolution of the diminished fifth.  (minor sixths and minor thirds can also be resolutions.  Augmented fourths resolve out; diminished fifths resolve in.)


Also, I'm thinking number 6 might be too esoteric.....would anyone vote for me to replace it?

Can I have an enharmonic half point for number one?

Minor triad to Major triad = raised third
Half diminished seventh to Fr. +6 = raised third (if b7 and b5 are reinterpreted as #4 and +6)

...please?

EDIT: Unless the answer is mm7, i.e., Eb-Gb-Bb-Db.
Logic = cm:EbM - C half dim. 7: ebmm7

[leahcim]

Can I have an enharmonic half point for number one?

Minor triad to Major triad = raised third
Half diminished seventh to Fr. +6 = raised third (if b7 and b5 are reinterpreted as #4 and +6)

...please?

But half dim 7th with a raised 3rd is a maj 7th flat 5, I believe [at least that's what I was trying to do, simply raise the 3rd]

edit: or is it...hmm perhaps that's why it was wrong it'd be 1 b3 b5 b7 to 1 3 b5 b7, so it's a dominant 7th.

is the answer for 1 simply "7 flat 5"?

edit 2 : If extra pedals is the thing Borgato pianos feature four strings per note, OTOH the Blüthner aliquot stringing system has 4 strings too.

[thalberg]

You should make these so that there can only be one answer.  It seems like there are multiple equally correct answers depending on the logic one uses.

Not true.  You could say the same about your analogy test, but as you said, there is one answer that is a "bingo." 

The tritone resolution logic is strong.  The resolutions of tritones is an important and well-known concept, not a distant and subjective logic. 

Plus, I know my number one is confusing people, but if you have taken a certain class, it's one of the first things you hear.  It's a very, very strong logic.

[mike_lang]

Not true.  You could say the same about your analogy test, but as you said, there is one answer that is a "bingo." 

Sure, you were thinking a sixth minus two half steps is an augmented fourth, minus two half steps is a diminished third.  But the tritone resolution logic is so much stronger. 

Plus, I know my number one is confusing people, but if you have taken a certain class, it's one of the first things you hear.  It's a very, very strong logic.

Has it to do with the overtone series?

[thalberg]

Has it to do with the overtone series?

No.  Do you want a hint?  Or would that spoil the fun?

[thalberg]

Can I have an enharmonic half point for number one?

Minor triad to Major triad = raised third
Half diminished seventh to Fr. +6 = raised third (if b7 and b5 are reinterpreted as #4 and +6)

...please?

EDIT: Unless the answer is mm7, i.e., Eb-Gb-Bb-Db.
Logic = cm:EbM - C half dim. 7: ebmm7

I'm really sorry but it's not the answer.  None of the chords you have mentioned are the answer, enharmonic or not.  There is one right answer.  The right answer does have another chord that is the enharmonic equivalent, but no one has mentioned it.

I do see your logic about raising the thirds.  However, the answer is an even tighter, closer logic than that. 

Hint:  Major/minor triads have a relationship that has nothing to do with raising the third.

[thalberg]

Well we know who she is. We can do more than that.

For the 5th...Fazioli added both a fourth pedal, so who added more strings/violin strings?

I'll help out a little here and tell you this is strictly a piano question.  No violins.

[wotgoplunk]

Modal keys for #1?

Half Diminished relates to Locrian mode...

[thalberg]

But half dim 7th with a raised 3rd is a maj 7th flat 5, I believe [at least that's what I was trying to do, simply raise the 3rd]

edit: or is it...hmm perhaps that's why it was wrong it'd be 1 b3 b5 b7 to 1 3 b5 b7, so it's a dominant 7th.

is the answer for 1 simply "7 flat 5"?

edit 2 : If extra pedals is the thing Borgato pianos feature four strings per note, OTOH the Blüthner aliquot stringing system has 4 strings too.

YES!!  Bluthner was the answer because they have four strings.  Four pedals on a Fazioli, four strings on a Bluthner.

EDIT:  I'm deleting my stupid comment.

When you mentioned dominant seventh, was that a guess or not?

[mike_lang]

No 1 is not 7 flat 5.  Above, what you were picturing is not a half diminished but rather a diminished.   Half diminisehd is 1 b3. b5, major 7th.  Fully diminished has the flat 7.

I'm sorry to pick a nit...but isn't it half diminished with contains a minor seventh and the fully diminished which contains a diminished seventh?

[thalberg]

Modal keys for #1?

Half Diminished relates to Locrian mode...

Sorry, no modes.

Picture it.  C major: CEG
                 C minor: CEbG
                
What relationship do they have other than the lowered third?  It's hard to see if you have not taken a certain class.

[thalberg]

I'm sorry to pick a nit...but isn't it half diminished with contains a minor seventh and the fully diminished which contains a diminished seventh?

EDIT:  I'm deleting this post because I was thinking totally wrong.  Sorry.


You are indeed correct.

[wotgoplunk]

Sorry, no modes.

Picture it.  C major: CEG
                 C minor: CEbG
                 
What relationship do they have other than the lowered third?  It's hard to see if you have not taken a certain class.

Well considering my measly 5 years of music...

Nothing to do with intonation or anything like that? Strictly piano-theory?

EDIT: Nevermind....*backs away slowly*

[mike_lang]

Actually, no.  Half diminished has a major seventh.  Fully diminished has a minor seventh. 

Fully diminished seventh chords are famous for equally dividing the octave--into minor thirds (enharmonically speaking.)  Because of this quality, it's impossible to hear what inversion they are in.  That's what makes them cool.

Now that you know the intervals, you may see the relationship I'm thinking of.

M7 = C to B
m7 = C to Bb
dim7 = C to Bbb

No?

[thalberg]

OH dammit you're right. 

What was I thinking?  I'm on crack today or something.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, I was having a brain drain moment.  Very, very stupid, I'm very sorry.

[mike_lang]

[WITHDRAWN]

[thalberg]

So C-Eb-Gb-B natural, you say, is half diminished;
C-Eb-Gb-Bb is fully diminished;
and C-Eb-Gb-Bbb is...?

I'm sorry to beat this into the ground, it is just quite contrary to how I have been taught and have never seen this diminished chord with the major seventh.

Oh no!  I was hoping I could delete that post before you quoted it!

Anyway, please see my above post as I humbly apologized and retracted my stupid momentary lapse of sanity.  What was I thinking?

You're absolutely correct in your understanding of the diminished seventh chord.  I was wrong because my brain was not working today.  I seriously cannot believe I made that mistake.

[wotgoplunk]

You know what, I'm gonna tackle the Agnes De Mille question 

Daughter of a film producer...Korngold wrote film music...

[thalberg]

Shall I just tell you the answer to number 1?

I'll give you a hint:  I learned the answer in set theory class.

If you want the answer just say so.  I don't want to torture you anymore.

[mike_lang]

Shall I just tell you the answer to number 1?

I'll give you a hint:  I learned the answer in set theory class.

If you want the answer just say so.  I don't want to torture you anymore.

Bring it.  Please.

[wotgoplunk]

Bring it.  Please.

No!

Equal temperament notation?

EDIT:       

[thalberg]

Bring it.

Okay, the answer is dominant seventh.  I wasn't sure if that was your official guess up above.  You did mention it, so I will credit you with it since you were the only one.  No one else brought up that chord.


Explanation:  In set theory, you count the smallest intervals first.  Bottom note is zero, and half steps go up by one.  So a minor triad is (0,3,7)  A major triad is also (0,3,7) because you count the smallest intervals first.  In a minor triad, the smaller interval is on the bottom; in a major triad it's on top.  But either way, the two chords have an identical pitch class set.

Half diminised seventh chord is (0,2,5,8)  Dominant seventh chord is also (0,2,5,8)  You have to put the chord so the outer voices are as close together as possible, and start with the smallest interval.  So the dom 7 chord would be in 6/5 inversion.

How could you see this without set theory?  Just realize in a minor triad, the intervals go in reverse order from a major triad.  I in a half dim seventh chord, the intervals go in reverse order to the dominant seventh.

This is one of the first things you learn in set theory, so people who have taken the class know this.  I wasn't just being an esoteric jerk or anything.

[thalberg]

No!

Equal temperament notation?

EDIT:       

Sorry, I spent such a long time typing that answer that by the time your answer appeared, I just didnt' want to discard it.  Forgive me......

Plus, I felt bad michael had tried so hard and I wanted to relieve his suffering, since he did after all mention the right answer.

[mike_lang]

Plus, I felt bad michael had tried so hard and I wanted to relieve his suffering, since he did after all mention the right answer.

Actually, I believe it was leachim who suggested the Mm7, as much as I do enjoy thread-wide renown and all...

[thalberg]

Oh yes! You're right.  I thought that was you.  I will change it.


So.....was the answer to number one too annoying or was it okay?  Seriously, people do talk about that exact phenomenon in set theory class.  Everyone at first complains about set theory, saying it's bogus because it makes a major triad the same as a minor triad, and a dominant seventh the same as a half diminished seventh.  I heard it talked about so much I thought people would get it.

Also, the reverse-ordered intervals I thought would help.