Back strengthening exercises ?

[dmc]

I've always had a slight slouch when sitting at the piano.  But I've noticed since I started paying more attention to posture that my upper back seems to get fatigued after about 30 minutes (i.e. between the shoulder blades and lower neck).  This leads to stiffness in those areas which I'm sure can't be helpful.  I have to believe that if I could deal with this it would improve my ability to transmit energy through the shoulders and hopefully improve my tone.

Towards that end, is there a place online where I might find exercises for strengthening this area ?  Most sites tend to emphasize the lower back which I'm OK with (so far).  Its the upper one that I'd like to work at.  Or if you have other suggestions I'd love to hear 'em !

Ideas ?

[opus57]

I know no website in the moment where you can find gymnastiv exercices for your backs and shoulder, but I used some time ago to visit the physiotherapy for my weak back... I had to lie on a special gymnastic ball and do some exercices, but do you have a gymnastic ball?

[thalbergmad]

Try a 300 kilo deadlift, worked wonders for me.

Back is fine, knees are finished

On a serious note, i used to be like this. Sometimes it felt like i had put a coat on but forgot to take the hanger out. Stretching exercises and bi monthly visits to the Chiropractor did the trick.

Also, check out some of the old threads on the Alexander Technique.

Thal

[pianistimo]

try cycling an hour a day.

and, on top of that sometimes doing chiro exercises.

[dmc]

I had to lie on a special gymnastic ball and do some exercices, but do you have a gymnastic ball?

Yes I do.  Can you describe what you do ?

FYI I also did some digging after my initial post.  I'm pretty sure the muscle group I need to work on is the Latissimus Dorsi and I did find something that looks like it might help.  I have a home gym which I use regularly but I've never done much back work.  It has a Lat pull down function which should address this with regular use.

[viking]

Try swimming 3 times a week.  It's worked wonders for some friends.

Sam

[zheer]

Ideas ?

   Hi, i hope i can help. Back pain due to piano playing my be caused by sitting too high at the bench, thus the need to lower ones own body, rather than to lengthin upwards. As thalb has already recommended the Alexander Technique has all the answers.
    Yoga happens to be my favorite activity away from the piano it is my religion, since yoga is a philosophy it is more than just strengthining,stretching and balancing on one leg. It helps with both mental and physical well being in a holistic way. So things to consider to deal with your back pain are not strengthining excercisce but re-learning how to use ones own body.So a qualified Alexander teacher will help a lot, avoid learning from books at first, books help only once basic instructions are given.
     Good luck.

[lostinidlewonder]

Shoulders back, chest out, push your gut forwards and sit on the end of your chair.

[opus57]

Yes I do.  Can you describe what you do ?

FYI I also did some digging after my initial post.  I'm pretty sure the muscle group I need to work on is the Latissimus Dorsi and I did find something that looks like it might help.  I have a home gym which I use regularly but I've never done much back work.  It has a Lat pull down function which should address this with regular use.

Lay on it on your belly, put your handy behind your head and relax. Your face should be near the ground. Then you pull yourself up, rolling the ball a bit forward, then you stay, go back slowly and relax for a few seconds. Quasi like sit-ups for the back. The ball makes you more efficient because you have to keep the equilibrium...

Or you do that: https://www.starker-ruecken.com/diagonal_bauch.avi

[faulty_damper]

I've always had a slight slouch when sitting at the piano.  But I've noticed since I started paying more attention to posture that my upper back seems to get fatigued after about 30 minutes (i.e. between the shoulder blades and lower neck).  This leads to stiffness in those areas which I'm sure can't be helpful.  I have to believe that if I could deal with this it would improve my ability to transmit energy through the shoulders and hopefully improve my tone.

Are you sure the pain is caused because certain muscles have atrophied?  I doubt it.  Considering the "pain" that you describe, it sounds like you are sitting too upright, purposefully pulling back your shoulder blades and lifting your head, hence the fatigue.

When you want to maximize power (by balance) especially while sitting (to play the piano), there must be a slight slouch, or rather, your spine should NOT be in the same vertical alignment as if you were standing upright (contrary to what some dinosaurs still advocate).  If it were, your body would be restricted in movement, and inflexibility leads to tension which destroys balance (power) and control, the item which you desire.

So before you think it's atrophied muscle groups that need considerable increase in mass, consider that what you think is "correct" posture may in fact be misguided.


To the isolated question about how to increase muscle mass of the back (and overall) consider jogging.  It's very easy to do and you don't need a balance ball, which is too time intensive compared to the alternative and too specific for the act of piano playing.  Jogging is much better as it requires many more physiological systems to work at higher intensities.  It significantly betters your respiratory system for the intake of oxygen to the body and mind which in turn allows your muscles to work more efficiently and your mind to concentrate.  It also betters your coordination in the manner that counts, not isometrically with a balance ball (you are never playing the piano using muscles isometrically).  So go jogging for 10-15 minutes every other day; less if you are just starting out.

Best wishes,
FD

[invictious]

I am quite a tall person for my age, but I am horribly thin (you will never believe how much I eat compared to others), and naturally, my back always gets tired easily (add that with being a cellist, which means even more back pain), it IS difficult.

I have resorted to back strengthening exercises, and they have really helped out. One easy exercise I recommend you do is 'da fish'.
Lay on your stomach on bed, then stretch your arms and legs out and up, hold for 5 seconds, relax. Repeat this 15 times, and repeat each rep round 5 times. I tend to do that right after i wake up, or before i sleep, so there is my advice.

[thalbergmad]

To the isolated question about how to increase muscle mass of the back (and overall) consider jogging. 

Never did me any good, but i am on the large side.

Thal

[dmc]

To the isolated question about how to increase muscle mass of the back (and overall) consider jogging.

Faulty, I actually run now & have been doing so for about 15-20 years.  I was up to about 22-24 miles a week for a long time but recently developed some knee/tendonitis issues (this ol' body of mine is just turning into a mess as I get older !) so I've had to cut back a bit.  Nonetheless what you say makes sense as well.   Nice to know that helps at the piano.  If it matters, my build is fairly slender (6'0" 155 lbs). 

Lostinidle's post made me consider that I may also sitting too far back on the bench & leaning forward to compensate.  So maybe thats coming into play as well.

Thanks all for the helpful suggestions !

[arbisley]

   Hi, i hope i can help. Back pain due to piano playing my be caused by sitting too high at the bench, thus the need to lower ones own body, rather than to lengthin upwards. As thalb has already recommended the Alexander Technique has all the answers.

I also had back problems, my back cracked after practice for instance, and that was adjusted when I lowered my stool the extra 10 cm, and it's made a hell of a difference to my playing as well! Particularly as I have a large upper body, it makes most pianos far too low, even grands, and I need to adjust with a very low seat.

Swimming! does loads for flexibility as well

[dnephi]

Dips and pullups. 

[richard black]

Try sitting lower?

[ahinton]

Never did me any good, but i am on the large side.

Thal

It didn't do the local council a whlle lot of good either, what with the cost of all those repairs to fractured paving slabs and such...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

try cycling an hour a day.

and, on top of that sometimes doing chiro exercises.

No dancing? Well, that's a blessed relief!

Best,

Alistair

[nick]

I don't know if your problem is solved yet, but I would say the soreness you experience is because those muscles were not worked before. Work into it slowly, maybe not practice as much initially. Over time those muscles will strengthen without you doing anything different. I used to have low back pain when I moved back further from the piano. After short time problem solved.

Hope this helps,
Nick

[bluepuri]

Most of you write about sitting lower... but doesn't sitting lower hamper the agility? Because that's what I feel when I sit on lower chair (i usually sit a bit higher).

I have this shoulder problem as well and found out it happened because the shoulder tensed during my playing (without realizing). Maybe you can try to check whether you're tensing or not. In the middle of your playing, do a sudden stop and pay attention to whatever your body is doing from your playing position. After you're sure you are not tensing... then you can try all that strengthening exercises.

By the way. where can I find good representative of Alexander Technique?

[arbisley]

I found that sitting lower improved my agility LOADS, but then I think it just helped me discover technique problems in a different light, I can come back to a higher sitting position and keep the things I learned lower down.

I think the important thing is to keep the elboiws relaxed, because that is where I found I had tension, and think of sinking into the notes, but keeping the hands nicely above the keyboard, the wrist just above the keys, which makes it easier to articulate the notes.

Personal discovery that is though, so have to try it out for yourself...

[richard black]

Most of you write about sitting lower... but doesn't sitting lower hamper the agility?

Any sudden change in posture will hamper agility, you just have to get used to it. I used to sit high and in those days found sitting lower hampered agility: now the exact reverse is true.

[Bob]

I need more of these.  I'm slouching too much lately.

[gyzzzmo]

It didn't do the local council a whlle lot of good either, what with the cost of all those repairs to fractured paving slabs and such...

Best,

Alistair

He did good things too... Wasnt it Thal who ate Jonas (Bible) and gave him a free ride?

Gyzzz

[timland]

I've had lots of back pain over the years. Seen acupunturists, chiropractors and physical therapist and none of what they had to offer helped as much as the info in the book Awareness Heals by Steven Shaferman. Aware Heals contains exercises based in the Feldenkrais Method that will help you learn proper posture which is probably the source of your pain. The book has six lessons that are quite detailed and take about an hour per lesson but you'll feel considerable relief after going through the 1st lesson one time.

[Bob]

What's the Feldenfrais Method?  Is that like the Alexander Method?