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Topic: Mankind's Showcase  (Read 2352 times)

Offline Antnee

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Mankind's Showcase
on: April 08, 2004, 02:27:02 AM
Who else considers Beethoven to be one of the most genius, revolutionary, exciting, emotional, and greatest composer to have ever lived. I listen to his music and just wonder how that man could do it. His stuff is so perfect. Like it was meant to be. I think beethoven's works (sonatas, symphonies, concertos..) are the most widely performed of any composer. Will there any be another one like him again? What are your favorite works by him and which do you play?
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #1 on: April 08, 2004, 05:21:24 AM
yep, in my mind he is undoubtedly the greatest composer thats ever lived(and probably my joint favourite).

my favourite is the 1st mvt of the kreutzer violin sonata - beethovinian drama at its most emotional.

i havent played any yet - but i have an attraction to works in minor keys, so the pathetique, moonlight , appasionata etc will be 1st priority  ;)
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline Clare

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #2 on: April 08, 2004, 05:53:19 AM
Beethoven rocks. I'm playing piano sonata Op. 10 no. 1 at the moment, and learned the compulsory pathetique slow movement and moonlight sonata first movement when I was a kid.
The slow movement of Op. 10 no. 1 always gets me a bit teary when I play it, even when I'm messing up a lot.
My other favourites of the moment are pastoral symphony and spring sonata. In both those pieces, you can smell freshly mown grass in the country.
He's not quite my favourite composer (though he almost is), but I probably respect him the most. I don't see how one couldn't be amazed.

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #3 on: April 08, 2004, 06:40:18 AM
Yeah he is definitely one of my favourite composers in the Classical Era. Have learnt the Pathetique Sonata and the 1st movement of the Waldstein. Have yet to attempt the Appassionata yet. And his symphonies, are they not the greatest 9 ever written? Every composer after him looks up to his symphonies as a benchmark... Brahms, Mahler... and the likes...

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline Antnee

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #4 on: April 09, 2004, 04:56:45 AM
Yes YES YES!! He is just so great!!! Comme_le_vent I have been attempting the appasionata and it is not simple. I do agree that his minor key piano sonatas are so emotional. He write's so brilliantly. I don't think I'll ever get over him... :D
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #5 on: April 10, 2004, 05:55:23 AM
bach was the greatest composer to ever be born

Offline Antnee

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #6 on: April 10, 2004, 11:32:16 PM
-Rachlisztchopin... may we ask why??? :)
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline goalevan

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #7 on: April 11, 2004, 12:47:31 AM
RondoAllaTony lol


my favorite composer is Chopin simply because almost all of the work he did was for the piano. My playlist is almost filled with chopin

Offline Antnee

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #8 on: April 11, 2004, 02:28:39 AM
Yes Goalevan...Chopin defininitely comes in at a close second in my book... He's awesome...
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #9 on: April 11, 2004, 02:35:20 AM
chopin is my favorite composer too and he is possibly the greatest composer ever for the piano

im surprised, rondo, that u question bach being the greatest composer: he is the father of all other composers; every composer looks up to bach
my piano teacher is a world renowned pianist (but not famous like argerich) and he no doubt says that bach was the greatest composer; im sure he could come up with at least 100 reasons why too; and please dont ask me to ask him to write down the 100 reasons lol
his wife is also a very good music theorist and she states if there was one composer u had to devote ur life to it would be bach
any questions?

Offline Antnee

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #10 on: April 11, 2004, 03:15:49 AM
I don't Question you at all RachLisztChopin...In many respects i do agree with you. Bach's music is that of a certain genius. His music is tidy and so well done that it is certain that a misplaced note would cause his musical structure to fall. But unfortunatley for Bach music around that time had not evolved to the point of Beethoven. Beethoven had the pleasure of being born after Bach's musical experiments and so could look to those ideas. Bach had nothing to work with. So I do agree with you.

But when you listen to Bach and then Beethoven, which hits your emotions more? When a composer is able to stir my emotions up in the fury of their music, then I know that they are special. Bach has rarely touched me in this way. Beethoven and Chopin (for example) have the way of reaching out and grabbing your musical soul and singing to it. Besides much of Bach's music was intended as exercises and only of his church music and concertos and like were the publicly performed kind. I do agree however, that any serious pianist must respect Bach for the genius he was.

     -Yours truly,
                    Tony  ;)
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline bernhard

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #11 on: April 11, 2004, 03:58:58 AM
Quote


But when you listen to Bach and then Beethoven, which hits your emotions more? When a composer is able to stir my emotions up in the fury of their music, then I know that they are special. Bach has rarely touched me in this way. Beethoven and Chopin (for example) have the way of reaching out and grabbing your musical soul and singing to it. Besides much of Bach's music was intended as exercises and only of his church music and concertos and like were the publicly performed kind. I do agree however, that any serious pianist must respect Bach for the genius he was.

     -Yours truly,
                    Tony  ;)


Er… Both?

Not wishing to demean Beethoven or Chopin in any way, Bach composed over 1200 pieces of music - very little of it intended as exercises - and scholars estimate that another 800 pieces have been lost. (Beethoven around 300, Chopin around 200 and neither of them had a job and 20 children to look after).

They run the whole gamut of human emotions (including fury – Bach was no wimp). They are pinnacles of intellectual achievement. They are also spiritual masterpieces.

I really don’t know even where to begin.

What about the Mass in Bm ?
What about the St Matthews Passion?

This completely transcends the label of “religious” music. I would argue that they have nothing to do with religion (= organised religion). This music defies categorisation. Powerful does not even begins to describe it.

What about the “largo ma non tanto” of the double violin concerto in Dm (BWV 1043)? Some people to whom I played this (on the CD player) could not believe it was from Bach. They had formed an idea about Bach and that was that.

As I said, I do not know even where to begin.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.



The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Antnee

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #12 on: April 11, 2004, 05:22:16 AM
You're right Bernhard...
          You obviously know a lot more about Bach's music than I do. I guess i should look into Bach more deepley as it seems I have barely scratched the surface. I guess it just runs as a matter of personal taste for a lot of people. Beethoven is still my first favorite composer(of the moment) But I am glad to have been enlightened on Bach. I shall most definitely be listening to his music tonight... :)
                       -tony
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #13 on: April 11, 2004, 05:46:48 AM
u remind me of my teacher bernhard  :)
he doesnt even no where to begin whereas my teacher would say the exact same thing
dont rate composers by how emotional their music is: rate them by how genius their music is
in my opinion chopins music is more emotional than beethovens (probably because its from the romantic era: when people started writing music based on their emotions and not to make money as a court composer)
and i do love beethoven so dont get me wrong on that: he is one of the greatest composers ever lived

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 02:30:44 AM
yeah, bach's emotions are less obvious immediately, but the more you associate with the pieces the more they begin to move you.

im interested in furious music, what is the most furious music bach composed?
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline bernhard

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #15 on: April 13, 2004, 02:24:08 AM
Quote
im interested in furious music, what is the most furious music bach composed?


I am not sure if this is the most furious he ever composed, but it is pretty wild: Chromatic fantasy and fugue (BWV 903). Some of the toccatas are good in this respect too.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #16 on: April 13, 2004, 03:19:26 AM
yeah i hear the fury!  >:( >:( >:(  ;D

but i still dont think it compares with ornstein's danse suavage  :o  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(  ;D
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline bernhard

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #17 on: April 13, 2004, 03:57:05 AM
Quote
yeah i hear the fury!  >:( >:( >:(  ;D

but i still dont think it compares with ornstein's danse suavage  :o  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(  ;D


Of course it doesn't.

Baroque music followed different conventions from 20 th century music.

Bach was working from the theory of affects that required that only or two motifs be used and then varied and developped. From this point of view, his music is probably more furious than Ornstein's. That Bach could produce such music under such constraints is one of the reasons he is so respected as a composer.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #18 on: April 13, 2004, 09:04:47 AM
try bachs toccata and fugue in d minor for organ!!!
now thats a furious piece  >:( >:( >:( >:( it makes me want to throw things and break things!
and the best part about it is busoni transcribed it to piano! yay!  8)

Offline tosca1

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #19 on: April 13, 2004, 11:43:22 PM
Even if Beethoven is not your favourite composer you must concede that in terms of his colossal output for most musical genres even including an opera and the  universality of his appeal he must be ranked as the greatest of them all. While in no way demeaning the exquisite beauty of  JS Bach's music, he was a conservative while Beethoven was an innovator and a musical visionary.  Beethoven also opened a new world of musical expression and his indomitable spirit that permeates his music is as much an inspiration for us today as it was for the composer's contemporaries.

Kind regards,
Robert.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #20 on: April 14, 2004, 12:34:13 AM
Quote
Even if Beethoven is not your favourite composer you must concede that in terms of his colossal output for most musical genres even including an opera and the  universality of his appeal he must be ranked as the greatest of them all. While in no way demeaning the exquisite beauty of  JS Bach's music, he was a conservative while Beethoven was an innovator and a musical visionary.  Beethoven also opened a new world of musical expression and his indomitable spirit that permeates his music is as much an inspiration for us today as it was for the composer's contemporaries.

Kind regards,
Robert.


I have no problem with ranking Beethoven as the greatest of them all (although personally I think this kind of ranking meaningless, after all why does it have to be one greatest of them all?)

I do have a problem with this persistent notion that Bach was a conservative musician. Bach was one of the most innovative - if not the most innovative - musicians of all time.

I need only to mention one single achievement of his to support my claim: he introduced equal temperament in Westen music. This innovation is responsible for music as we know it today.

This idea that Bach did not create anything new, but just brought to perfection what was already there can be traced back to Albert Schweitzer's biography of Bach. Somehow this grossly mistaken view stuck in popular imagination. It is easy to show how wrong Schweitzer was in his appraisal. Just look around and see what Bach's contemporaries and predecessors were doing in terms of music and you will be floored by the innovative genius of the man.

As for Beethoven prodigious output of some 300 works, compare it with Bach's of 1200 known works of equal width and breadth plus an estimated 800 lost works.

This by no means diminishes Beethoven's genius, but conversely waxing lyrical about Beethoven should not demean Bach's achievements either.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline tosca1

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #21 on: April 14, 2004, 01:59:04 AM
Thank you Bernhard for pointing out  the fact that JS Bach firmly established equal temperament and by writing all the the 48 Preludes and Fugues he achieved this through a monumental musical legacy.  I agree with you that composer ranking is a meaningless exercise and in the posts on this topic there is no mention of Mozart whom some may claim to be the most divinely inspired of all composers.  
In my love of composers I am no monogamist and as with friends who are dear to us, we love them, individually, for their different qualities and not to rank them.

Kind regards,
Robert.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #22 on: April 15, 2004, 12:17:26 AM
Poligamy! Yeah! :D
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #23 on: April 15, 2004, 12:18:20 PM
Just because someone has a high output doesn't mean that the output was good.  (Mozart: "I'll just write another one.")

But Beethoven cared about his output and: "I do not borrow from my own works".

Offline bernhard

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #24 on: April 15, 2004, 12:33:02 PM
Quote

But Beethoven cared about his output and: "I do not borrow from my own works".


But Beethoven did borrow from his own works ("Not that there is anything wrong with that" - Jerry Seinfeld)

For instance, compare the Tempo de menuetto in Sonata op. 49 no. 2 with the Tempo de menuetto in the Septet in Eb (fo clarinet, Bassoon, horn, violin, viola, cello and double bass).

There are many more examples.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Mankind's Showcase
Reply #25 on: April 15, 2004, 12:41:11 PM
Maybe when he said that he was refering to writing the same thing but with a slight quirk to the melody - something Mozart did all the time.  Other composers did this like Joplin, though for only 2 or 3 ragtime pieces where it is almost the same but instead of a melody that goes up, it goes down.  (Can't recall which ones.)  But the rewrite was always inferior to the original because the logical steps of the melody were displaced.
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