slow practice?

[lohshuhan]

I heard from my piano teacher that Alfred Brendel does not believe in slow practice, because the movements of the arms and the fingers are very different from if you play fast. 

does anyone on the forum practice using Brendel's method? 

[gyzzzmo]

I havent used this method, but i think your teacher (or you) are generalising what he said too much. It totally depends on WHAT you're training. For example chopin etude op10 no 1 (yes i like the etudes :p). If you want to train stretching, hitting the bigger jumps or hand folding on a lower level, you play them slowly. If you you play them fast you're training wrist rolling (for example). So it just depends on what you're training.

[lohshuhan]

I havent used this method, but i think your teacher (or you) are generalising what he said too much. It totally depends on WHAT you're training. For example chopin etude op10 no 1 (yes i like the etudes :p). If you want to train stretching, hitting the bigger jumps or hand folding on a lower level, you play them slowly. If you you play them fast you're training wrist rolling (for example). So it just depends on what you're training.

hmmm...  i'll go ask her when i see her tomorrow. 

[counterpoint]

I heard from my piano teacher that Alfred Brendel does not believe in slow practice,

I can't believe that. Sounds very strange.

[lohshuhan]

I can't believe that. Sounds very strange.

i thought so too. 

that was one of the reasons i decided to post this up here.  another reason was to see if it was true, what reception would people have to this idea. 

[gyzzzmo]

Some things ofcourse cant be practised by slow playing, but there are alot more things wich can only be training by (or at least beginning with) slow practise than visa versa.

[kitty on the keys]

I have heard that also, that some dont believe in slow practice. But us mere mortals need to train everything very carefully. So slow practice can work--at least for me it does.. You can train the muscle to become used to fast playing by playing several notes very quickly so you train for the correct movements. Add more notes gradually and you will be up to tempo more quickly and with the correct motions. This works for me.

Kitty

[gyzzzmo]

I have heard that also, that some dont believe in slow practice. But us mere mortals need to train everything very carefully. So slow practice can work--at least for me it does.. You can train the muscle to become used to fast playing by playing several notes very quickly so you train for the correct movements. Add more notes gradually and you will be up to tempo more quickly and with the correct motions. This works for me.

Kitty

I think you're making here a key thinking mistake. Piano playing isnt training a muscle. Its training your brains to get used to certain movements wich can only done (as you correctly noticed) by doing things Carefully. Thats why mindless playing of fast notes (like how many people play Hanon) a waste of time. Your brains also need time to adept, so playing a certain passage 150 times in a row doesnt work either.

[zheer]

 A concert pianist that i know,once interviewd Alfred Brendel,she asked him to you pracrice slow,he said "yes,slow music". So no he doesn't practice slow and gradually build up on speed.

[franz_]

Another thing: Can you imaginate Mozart or Liszt practicing? Or practicing slowly?
It is strange, do you think they did it? Or even Cziffra, do you think that he practiced slowly?

[counterpoint]

Svjatoslav Richter did practise slowly!

And I found a posting in a forum, where someone tells how he himself heard Brendel practising the 12 first bars of a Schubert Sonata for hours!   

[gyzzzmo]

Another thing: Can you imaginate Mozart or Liszt practicing? Or practicing slowly?
It is strange, do you think they did it? Or even Cziffra, do you think that he practiced slowly?

Lol ofcourse they did.

unless.....they were alien and didnt need their brains to learn playing piano........

[teresa_b]

I find slow practice necessary to gain control of fast passages.  I have never found a problem with not training myself correctly by not practicing at tempo.  In fact, I've found often that if I play an entire piece at even, slow tempo--even after I am able to play it fast--I can almost immediately play it at the faster tempo much more accurately and evenly. 

It's fine to take out small things and do them at tempo to see what the required rapid movement is, but until you have the piece down at slower tempo, I think you can build a habit of playing "by the seat of your pants" --you may pull off the piece, but if you get thrown off by an error or something, you may wish you had better control.

Teresa

[paulpiano]

I heard from my piano teacher that Alfred Brendel does not believe in slow practice

You are absolutely right. One of my former piano teachers said the same thing and quoted Brendel.

[dnephi]

Practice only at full speed.  In fact, practice faster than performance tempo!  Never use the metronome, always hold the pedal down, and make sure you never hit the right notes twice in a row.

[kitty on the keys]

Gyzzzmo-----I agree totally with you. I was just being very general. You have to train the ears,brain and muscle movements to learn. I agree with you about Hanon----I dont teach it. And over repetitve practice does nothing---if you have no goals or what you are doing, nothis is accomplished. I am starting the first movement of the Ginestera Sonata No. 1, and I work in phrases of 4 measures slowly get those leaps correct. If I didnt have a plan, I would not progress at all with this piece.

Kitty

[kriskicksass]

Every practice technique has a purpose. If you keep that in mind, then everything is useful. I personally believe that slow practice is best for learning notes and gaining the rudimentary coordination needed to play something, but then it is best to practice extremely short passages at full speed. It's best to look for how much will be seem by the arms as a single gesture and then practice that much at full speed (once you know where the notes are from slow practice) until you have perfected it. Then you can chain together the individual gestures and you're set.

[lazlo]

Even when you practice slow, you should be doing the same motions the same way you'd be doing them if you were doing them fast, just in slow motion. That's key in slow practice.

[counterpoint]

Practice only at full speed.  In fact, practice faster than performance tempo!  Never use the metronome, always hold the pedal down, and make sure you never hit the right notes twice in a row.

I will print that out and hang it over the piano 

[paulpiano]

I wonder if the great pianists (the geniuses) practice the same way an average pianist do?
Even Sviatoslav Richter might say contradictory things about his practicing. If you read Bruno Monsaingeon's book, Richter tells us that when he starts a new piece, he plays one or two pages not too slowly.He doesn't go further unless he gets satisfaction.

[counterpoint]

when he starts a new piece, he plays one or two pages not too slowly.

That's the same I do.

The slow practice comes afterwards 

[Alde]

Slow practice is a great way to build concentration.  I also find slow practice a great way to test your memory - especially when done memorized.

A former teacher of mine would make me play all of my pieces at sixteenth = 40 on the metronome.  At first I thought this was a waste of time.  Later I found that this really secured my memory and helped me build confidence.

Sometimes when we play fast pieces, all the notes become a blur.  For example when we play a Chopin Etude we don't think of the individual notes.  Sometimes we discover mistakes at slower tempos.

I "slow practice" because it works for me.

[paulpiano]

A former teacher of mine would make me play all of my pieces at sixteenth = 40 on the metronome

I'm very curious about your former teacher. Because I had one that used the same method. Where did he graduate?

[Alde]

I'm very curious about your former teacher. Because I had one that used the same method. Where did he graduate?

I studied music at the University of Windsor in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.

[paulpiano]

A former teacher of mine would make me play all of my pieces at sixteenth = 40 on the metronome.  At first I thought this was a waste of time.  Later I found that this really secured my memory and helped me build confidence.

Does slow playing improve our memory?

[schubertiad]

If you play slowly enough you can destroy finger memory which we rely very heavily on. This means that we are now only testing our brain, since our fingers will not be able to remember where to go next on their own. Of course practising (why do i get a red line under the word 'practising'- it is a verb!) like this for hours would be a huge timewaster, but now and and again it can be very helpful. Having said that, I can never be bothered to actually do it...

[mike_lang]

Does slow playing improve our memory?

I believe it improves it some, but mostly, it tests the analytical, visual, and aural memories, since tactile memory is more difficult at slower speeds.  I tend to memorize things better at quicker speeds, often times with the hands separated, because material can be "chunked."

Best,
Michael

[schubertiad]

Yes, I should have been clearer - it doesn't 'improve' it so much as test and solidify it. I wouldn't recommend this kind of practice until the piece is well learned, and even then only now and again.

[tengstrand]

I believe a lot in slow practice, as long as one knows why. Maybe that could be what Brendel means, just practicing slow, thinking it will make you able to play fast, is not working. When we play a piece we use reflexes in our body system, the brain signals to the hands, arms etc, what to do without us consciously thinking what to do. Those signals has been created by repeating those movements in practice. If you have a movement that doesn't work well, or tension in certain passages, etc. you will have to play slowly to be able to "override" the brain signals (the reflexes) and consciously play it in another way. Different people have different ability to override a reflex, so you have to find your own slow tempo.

[franz_]

When there is marked 'Lento gracioso' I always practice slowly.


No, slow practice is a great way to improve.

[amelialw]

I believe in slow practise and that is how I practise for all my pieces. with the exception of my chopin etudes which I have to do some fast practise to make sure that I have enough of stamina/energy. Occasionaly when I prep for exams/recitals/competitions I do performance run-through's to see how I sound.

[slobone]

Another thing: Can you imaginate Mozart or Liszt practicing? Or practicing slowly?
It is strange, do you think they did it? Or even Cziffra, do you think that he practiced slowly?

Liszt practiced a lot, and in fact he played all the way through Hanon every day.

[slobone]

I think methodical slow practice is the best way to fix a passage in your "muscle memory". That way, you never have to even think about what note is coming next when you play it up to tempo, so you can focus on more interesting musical problems.

By methodical slow practice I don't just mean mechanically playing the passage over and over. I mean paying attention to what your fingers are doing, where the trouble spots are, deciding what fingering to use, etc.

Whenever I see a youtube video of somebody butchering a piece, I feel like messaging them: "Start over and do it SLOWLY -- many many times..."

[thierry13]

To be able to play well without slow practice, you first need to be able to play the piece technically perfect at speed at first sight reading ... as simple as that. When Brendel says he doesn't practice slow, it may be true, but it's because he has solved every technical problem at first sight ... wich not a lot of us can claim.

[danny elfboy]

There's a big difference between "slow practice" and "slow motion practice"
Brendel believed in slow motion practice.

What is meant by that is that instead of starting slowly and using motions that are suited for slow speed (large) and then building the speed by trying to apply those motions to fast speed (that requires short motions), the motions that work at the full speed of the pieces are first identified, and then they're practiced slowly.

What it means is that many people consider "slow practice" as "using motions suited to slow speed" while it should be considered as "using motions suited to full speed only with an added delay between each note that slow things down"

Think about it and you'll realize it's a very crucial difference!

[paulpiano]

the motions that work at the full speed of the pieces are first identified and then they're practiced slowly.

We are all talking about slow practice but how much slowly should we play?40, 60, 70 or 80 sixteenths (semi-quavers) a minute?

[counterpoint]

We are all talking about slow practice but how much slowly should we play?40, 60, 70 or 80 sixteenths (semi-quavers) a minute?

That depends how fast the final tempo should be. A slow practise tempo may be 1/4 of that final tempo, sometimes even slower.

[slobone]

We are all talking about slow practice but how much slowly should we play?40, 60, 70 or 80 sixteenths (semi-quavers) a minute?

My rule of thumb is slow enough so that I can play it without mistakes, but not so slow that it starts to fall apart, which is counterproductive. Somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 speed depending on the piece.

[paulpiano]

As you know, a muscular coordination changes with each change of tempo, intensity, or pitch of the tones. In order, therefore, to exercice the muscles used in the actual movement, shouldn't we, from the beginning, have to practice each passage at the tempo, intensity, and pitch at which it is finally to be played?

[stringoverstrung]

As you know, a muscular coordination changes with each change of tempo, intensity, or pitch of the tones. In order, therefore, to exercice the muscles used in the actual movement, shouldn't we, from the beginning, have to practice each passage at the tempo, intensity, and pitch at which it is finally to be played?

Yes but this is not always possible so in that case it's better to do it slower then to make a mistake. With experience you also learn which movement you use when playing fast and then you can immediately do it slower too. If it is a new movement you should isolate the difficulty, play the note group as close to the end tempo as you can and then practice this movement slower. This hands separate of course!

so slow or fast depends on the context but you should never underestimate the importance of CORRECT slow practice for the reason per mentioned above.

[rachfan]

I use two methods in working up a piece.  First, yes, I do start with slow practice initially--in a mechanical way--to get the notes, avoid mistakes before committing them whenever possible, working out fingerings in difficult passages, working through accompaniment in the same hand as melody, getting the sense of articulation, rhythm, phrasing, etc. etc.  In the next stage I move away from mechanics and toward musicality and musicianship in performance, making many refinements in voicing, dynamics, nuances, etc.  If there are fast parts, I work at getting those up to speed, and sometimes find that the slow practice hand motions and/or fingerings that worked famously at first are not really effective at tempo.  So I analyze those problems and make modifications that will be more workable for me.  If I play at tempo several times and find sloppiness creeping in, then I revert to the discipline of slow practice again until it's rectified.  Thus, in that sense there is a going back and forth between slow and fast as may be necessary in the circumstances.  I guess everyone's approach is different, but that is how I generally practice. 

[slobone]

As you know, a muscular coordination changes with each change of tempo, intensity, or pitch of the tones. In order, therefore, to exercice the muscles used in the actual movement, shouldn't we, from the beginning, have to practice each passage at the tempo, intensity, and pitch at which it is finally to be played?

I don't think anybody is saying you should only practice slowly. Once you've mastered the notes, work up to the tempo you want. Yes, the way you use your hands and arms will change, but as somebody else said, you can't work on every aspect of a piece simultaneously when you're still learning it.

Although come to think of it, I did have a teacher once who said that when you're to trying to keep a piece you already know "warm", you literally should only play it very very slowly. But I've pretty much ignored that advice.

[PaulNaud]

What's the use of practicing slowly?
THIS is the Big QUESTION!
Is it to enhance our memory?
Is  it a warm up of our apparatus (fingers flexibility, muscles, etc)?
Neuhaus wrote the following:
..In order to fight off abrupt attacks and the lack of flexibility, Chopin Prelude no.3, in G major op. 28 is a good example. I like to inflict, on pupils affected by these failings, exercises in the style of a camera slow motion.... I ask them to play the passage , step by step,very slowly...

[counterpoint]

What's the use of practicing slowly?
THIS is the Big QUESTION!

If you play real slow, you are able to hear what you play.

The biggest problem of many piano players is: they do not hear, what they play.
They want to control their playing by the muscles and not by the ears.

[ramseytheii]

If you play real slow, you are able to hear what you play.

The biggest problem of many piano players is: they do not hear, what they play.
They want to control their playing by the muscles and not by the ears.

That's definitely true.  I ahd a teacher who used to say, if you cannot play it slow, you cannot really play it fast.  I recommend slow practice also in transposition, especially the music of Bach, because you hear it in a new way, so you don't take the harmony for granted.  When practicing the Goldberg Variations, I've practiced every movement, even the msot chromatic, in transposition, even if it was very difficult, because in the end when you go back to the original key, you can hear it like never before.

Things that you take for granted in the original key, may sound "wrong" in a transposed key - then you realize you are playing the right notes, and approach the original with a much better context and ear!

Walter Ramsey

[PaulNaud]

If you play real slow, you are able to hear what you play.

Is it only about hearing?
Isn't it also about anticipation of motions? If you are very slow in your movements, it could be easier to analyze what is wrong in your performance.

[nyonyo]

That's definitely true.  I ahd a teacher who used to say, if you cannot play it slow, you cannot really play it fast. 
Walter Ramsey

I agree 100% with  what teacher said.

I personally need to practice part by part slowly to ensure the highest quality that I can play, even an easy part. Once I know how to play, I use my ear to control my touch to get the sound that I want to. Many times, however, it is hard to hear and play at the same time. Sometimes, I thought my playing sounded good, but after I replayed what I did, it did not sound the way I like it. I am glad that I bought Disklvier. It makes way easier to evaluate my playing.

[franzliszt2]

Slow practice is ESSENTIAL. I do not believe any pianist who says they don't belive in it. Being able to practice slowly reuquires great skill. The key is to practice sowly using EXACTKY the same motions as you intend to use whilst playing fast. Therefore...you must decide what motions you want, then work on the slow motion. If you ahve a legato passage...practice it slowly focusing eaxctly on legato etc...

Slow practice helps memory I suppose, but maily it helps the clarity of the notes, and the articulation. You must b able to play everything slow..or how do you play it fast? Most people play the piano as if they are dusting the keys, they don't play to the bottom of the notes, therefore they have bad sounds. If you play slowly and to the bottom of the keys you improve sound.

And Brendels playing is not always clean...in fact it often isn't and is mushed with pedal!

[PaulNaud]

And Brendels playing is not always clean...in fact it often isn't and is mushed with pedal!

I agree with you 100%
You will notice that the way a pianist practise and the way the same pianist imagine piano playing is always reflected in the actual performance.

[paulpiano]

Slow practice helps memory I suppose, but maily it helps the clarity of the notes, and the articulation. You must b able to play everything slow..or how do you play it fast? Most people play the piano as if they are dusting the keys, they don't play to the bottom of the notes, therefore they have bad sounds. If you play slowly and to the bottom of the keys you improve sound.

Can you explain yourself? About your slow playing? Are you using slow motion or exaggeration of movements?