Is it bad to move the fingers when playing piano?

[counterpoint]

My understanding of how to use fingers, hands, wrists and arms when playing piano  changed a lot in the last 40 years.

First I thought, moving the fingers is the only acceptable way to press the keys.

Then I thought, moving hand and arm and using the arm weight could totally replace finger movement.

At the moment I come back to some extent to the finger movement technique, because in many cases the arm weight method turned out to be  too delaying and making the sound too heavy.

I wonder what other people think about the role of finger movement and which technique(s) they are actually using.

[gerry]

I think I see what you're getting at - but the question you posed seems to belong in the realm of zen conundrums. But then I watched Horowitz and...

[daejiny]

Unless you can use the arm in conjunction with the hand to replace the dexterity of the fingers, you probably won't reach high speeds. But mastering the hand and arm technique will do nothing to hurt your playing, but will definitely help in bringing out shades. What's wrong with a medium?

[jlh]

What's wrong with a medium?

Exactly.  You're thinking in terms of black and white -- and all or nothing kind of thing.  In fact playing piano requires use of everything you have at your disposal, including finger movement and arm movement.  The key is to focus the energy of your body into your fingers (fingers make contact with the keys, so how can you NOT move them?) without causing tension.  That frequently means not moving the fingers, but not always.

It all depends on what you're trying to do on a piano at any given point in time.  If you're playing something like the Eb-min etude tableau from Rach's Op. 33, then you will have to move fingers AND use arm weight at times, or it doesn't work.

The key of course is weight and velocity without tension no matter what you do.

[viking]

Very good thread.  The problem with playing with your fingers, is that you will ultimately have an inferior sound.  You will also be at risk for severe tendonitis of the forearm.  It is important to play with a relatively open hand, channeling energy from your bum, shoulders, back, and elbows through to your fingertips.  However, that being said, it's probably impossible to never move your fingers while playing the piano.  One just has to be aware that fingers are the wrong place to create sound. 

[thalberg]

I move everything. 

[jlh]

I move everything. 

You said in 3 words what I said in several sentences.  See your DMA wasn't a waste of money... 

[ilikepie]

Erm, sorry, I'm the one who voted "never". I thought it was in response to the question :Is it bad to move the fingers when playing piano?" I mean I actually move my whole body when playing(well not all the time, but the tone of the key you depress relies on strength from the fingers, arms, shoulders and waists even. So it is impossible not to move your fingers. (I would understand how ever if you mean you should relax your wrists, that would make sense to me).

[counterpoint]

Erm, sorry, I'm the one who voted "never". I thought it was in response to the question :Is it bad to move the fingers when playing piano?" I mean I actually move my whole body when playing(well not all the time, but the tone of the key you depress relies on strength from the fingers, arms, shoulders and waists even. So it is impossible not to move your fingers. (I would understand how ever if you mean you should relax your wrists, that would make sense to me).

Yes, you're right: of course the fingers will move as a result of moving arm and hand.
What I wanted to know: is it bad to move the fingers while hand and arm are in a fixed position.

But even if hand and arm are in a fixed position they can be relaxed at the same time.

[counterpoint]

I move everything. 

Nobody had expected that 


Yeah, of course the movement is not limited to fingers or arm, but it makes a big difference, if the hand stands still above the keys while the fingers are moving or if the hand is  hanging in the keys like a sandbag. 

[danny elfboy]

My understanding of how to use fingers, hands, wrists and arms when playing piano  changed a lot in the last 40 years.

First I thought, moving the fingers is the only acceptable way to press the keys.

Then I thought, moving hand and arm and using the arm weight could totally replace finger movement.

At the moment I come back to some extent to the finger movement technique, because in many cases the arm weight method turned out to be  too delaying and making the sound too heavy.

I wonder what other people think about the role of finger movement and which technique(s) they are actually using.

It depends on the motions.

When people think of moving the fingers they think of keeping their arm and wrist motionless and fixed (almost stiff) and raising the fingers to create the necessary reaction and rebound to push them down.

This is in my opinion absolutely harmful and flawed. The reaction of the fingers raising displace the hand which founds itself in the wrong position (missing keys or playing wrong keys) or that instinctively readjust to go back to the correct position (tension of stiff arm and wrist + tension of finger motion + tension of hand displacing the replacing)

On the other hand this doesn't mean that the fingers should be motionless.
But the motion of the fingers should occur at the metarcapo-phalangeal joint (where the "hand" connects to the "fingers") and should be a motion of "pushing down" and "moving forward" at the same time

On the other hand change of position should occus at the elbow with the arms and wrist relaxed acting as a lever and not by raising the fingers.

While the shock bearing reaction (to counteract the hand slipping from its axis by pushing down) should occur at the shoulder. Consider it like a see-saw. If one side moves up the other reacts and move down and viceversa. On the other to avoid this displacement of the other side you need a fixed pivotal that abosorb the reaction and this pivotal is the relaxed shoulder.

So this is what happens in my opinion and should be considered the proper action at the piano


1) the arm + wrist lever bounce slightly and freely to change the and position and push it down

2) the fingers push down at the moment of impact at the metacarpo-phalangeal join and slightly forward at the proximal-interphalangeal joint to push the key down

3) the relaxed should absorb the shock of moving down preventing the hand from absorbing the shock itself causing the displacement which is the cause of "missing keys" or "hitting the wrong keys"

[leonidas]

Hilarious thread.

[pianochick93]

I would think that if you didn't move your fingers while playing, you wouldn't be able to strike the keys very well. My fingeres move all of the time when I am playing piano.

[counterpoint]

Hilarious thread.

 

[thalberg]

You said in 3 words what I said in several sentences.  See your DMA wasn't a waste of money... 

Haha thank you Josh.

Nobody had expected that 


Yeah, of course the movement is not limited to fingers or arm, but it makes a big difference, if the hand stands still above the keys while the fingers are moving or if the hand is  hanging in the keys like a sandbag. 

Yes, I make the hands stand still over the keys and only use the fingers in certain soft, light passages.  It's all about 'managing your weight,' as an evil Yugoslavian teacher used to tell me.

[schubertiad]

I tried playing piano without moving my fingers, but now my toes are absolutely killing me. I'd recommend sticking to fingers.

[jlh]

I tried playing piano without moving my fingers, but now my toes are absolutely killing me. I'd recommend sticking to fingers.

You could play "Sonata for the Finger-Challenged":

I: 'For elbows and forearms'
II: 'For nose and forehead (short middle section to be played 'by ear')'
III: 'For toes and knees - ending in final chord played by buttocks'

 

[pianochick93]

haha, I've gotta get me those pieces. They sound fun.

[bob3.1415926]

There is a piece by a modern composer which is played entirely with fists. I can't remember the guy's name now, but he recommends wearing some sort of protective glove at the start of the music!

[counterpoint]

You could play "Sonata for the Finger-Challenged":

I: 'For elbows and forearms'
II: 'For nose and forehead (short middle section to be played 'by ear')'
III: 'For toes and knees - ending in final chord played by buttocks'

 

IV:  Duet for 4 Grapefruits   

[gerry]

There is a piece by a modern composer which is played entirely with fists. I can't remember the guy's name now, but he recommends wearing some sort of protective glove at the start of the music!

No, you do not always have to move your fingers. You can concentrate your performance on a repertoire of what we call the "arms and elbows" school of composition. In addition, John Cage's 4'33"1952 has the performer come on stage, bow, sit at the piano for 4 min, 33 sec then get up, bow and leave the stage - Cage was proposing that the primary act of musical performance was not in making music but listening. Unfortunately, like so much of Marcel Marceau's brilliant performances,  this piece doesn't lend itself to some media like radio or MP3 recordings - so they remain largely unheard today.

[counterpoint]

Yes, I make the hands stand still over the keys and only use the fingers in certain soft, light passages. 

It was a very surprising experience for me, that not only the soft and light passages worked much better with this method, but also octaves and chords in forte or fortissimo. Playing forte with light arms is an amazing experience...

[danny elfboy]

It was a very surprising experience for me, that not only the soft and light passages worked much better with this method, but also octaves and chords in forte or fortissimo. Playing forte with light arms is an amazing experience...

There are also some misunderstanding with the terms because using "arm action" doesn't at all means that the arm are heavy while using mostly the fingers doesn't absolutely means that the arms are light. There's actually no connection between finger action or lack of finder action and heaviness of the arm.

[counterpoint]

There are also some misunderstanding with the terms because using "arm action" doesn't at all means that the arm are heavy while using mostly the fingers doesn't absolutely means that the arms are light. There's actually no connection between finger action or lack of finder action and heaviness of the arm.

For me there's a clear difference: in case of "light" arm, when I lift my fingers, fingers and arm are above the keyboard. In case of "heavy" arm,  it is not possible to lift all fingers (other than lifting the arm as a whole) from the keyboard, because they must hold the weight of the arm. It's that simple.

[thalberg]

There are also some misunderstanding with the terms because using "arm action" doesn't at all means that the arm are heavy while using mostly the fingers doesn't absolutely means that the arms are light. There's actually no connection between finger action or lack of finder action and heaviness of the arm.

He's right.  Truly masterful pianists manage to disconnect the fingers from the arms entirely.  Martha Argerich can play with heavy fingers and light arms, light fingers and heavy arms, heavy fingers and heavy arms, just fingers and no arms, or just arms and no fingers.

[danny elfboy]

For me there's a clear difference: in case of "light" arm, when I lift my fingers, fingers and arm are above the keyboard. In case of "heavy" arm,  it is not possible to lift all fingers (other than lifting the arm as a whole) from the keyboard, because they must hold the weight of the arm. It's that simple.

What do you mean by lifting the fingers?
It's the upper arm that must support the weight of the forearm
Even when I've written about using more arm action and less finger action to play I never meant that the arm should be a dead weight holding the keys down; this is not something a pianist may want to do. My concept of arm weight and arm stroke and using the arm as a lever had nothing to do with arm heaviness (i.e. I wasn't promoting arm heaviness or playing with the dead weight of the arm or hand)

[counterpoint]

He's right.  Truly masterful pianists manage to disconnect the fingers from the arms entirely.  Martha Argerich can play with heavy fingers and light arms, light fingers and heavy arms, heavy fingers and heavy arms, just fingers and no arms, or just arms and no fingers.

Sounds funny, but I don't understand, how fingers can be "heavy". Fingers are light by nature, and arms are heavy by nature. If you hold the arm in the air ("light arm")  it's only possible because muscles hold the arm in this position.

Okay, it's possible to use finger movement and heavy arms at the same time, but that makes not much sense to me. Finger movement alone would be loud enough, additional arm weight is not needed. Or just play with arm weight/arm movement, then you don't need the finger movement.

[counterpoint]

What do you mean by lifting the fingers?

The fingers go up in the air and keep there.

Impossible with "heavy" arm.

[danny elfboy]

The fingers go up in the air and keep there.

Impossible with "heavy" arm.

Since we had this same discussion many time I'd like to elaborate on what I meant.

In my opinion the natural motion of the fingers is down and forward to play the keys.
Any up positon as raising the fingers from the first phalange and almost curling them when up in the air, is a very unnatural, counteranatomical and dangerous motion.

So whatever lifting motion must occur at the forearm (which must be light) because if it occurred at the hand, the hand moving up would constrain the delicate vases and capillars of the wrist causing pain and CTS.

The forearm is light because the weight of the forearm is supported by the upper arm.

Besides the hand is not displaced.
As we know every action has an opposite reaction, and whatever down movement required to depress the keys have a robound effect which displace the hand. The displacement of the hand (which is a big problem in accuracy and speed) is avoided when the shoulders absorb the counteraction instead of the hand. Whiteside herself used to say that the shoulders are one of the most important aspect in piano playing.

Another important thing is that even active muscles can be light, so even a lifted forearm supported by muscles can leave the muscles relaxed and the structure light.
The real difference is between relaxation and excessive tension.
Relaxation clearly doesn't mean lack of tension (as in a dead arm) but just the necessary little amount of tension (which I prefer to call contraction) to keep the muscles at work without the excessive extra tension of stiffness. I guess we can agree that it's about using the right amount of "tension" no more nor less.

[counterpoint]

Since we had this same discussion many time I'd like to elaborate on what I meant.

In my opinion the natural motion of the fingers is down and forward to play the keys.
Any up positon as raising the fingers from the first phalange and almost curling them when up in the air, is a very unnatural, counteranatomical and dangerous motion.

So whatever lifting motion must occur at the forearm (which must be light) because if it occurred at the hand, the hand moving up would constrain the delicate vases and capillars of the wrist causing pain and CTS.

The forearm is light because the weight of the forearm is supported by the upper arm,

I agree with that description.

EDIT

Except one thing: I don't agree, that it is bad to lift the fingers with the hand while the arm stays still.

[thalberg]

Sounds funny, but I don't understand, how fingers can be "heavy". Fingers are light by nature, and arms are heavy by nature. If you hold the arm in the air ("light arm")  it's only possible because muscles hold the arm in this position.

Okay, it's possible to use finger movement and heavy arms at the same time, but that makes not much sense to me. Finger movement alone would be loud enough, additional arm weight is not needed. Or just play with arm weight/arm movement, then you don't need the finger movement.

Sorry I was in a strange mood.  I was really joking.

[counterpoint]

Sorry I was in a strange mood.  I was really joking.

 

You never can't be sure...

[danny elfboy]

I agree with that description.

EDIT

Except one thing: I don't agree, that it is bad to lift the fingers with the hand while the arm stays still.

It depends on what you mean.
What you should never do (even from a clinical point of view) is raising the hand while the arm is motionless so that the palm of the hand is above the line of the elbow.
If you touch your wrist while you're in this position you can feel the carpal tendons and vessels swollen press against the skin.

The natural position for the wrist is above the palm of the hand so that the wrist forms an arch. In this position there's no aggressive compression or blood flowing deprivation which is instead unavoidable with the other position.



The first bad drawing is what I consider a natural correct position.
The second bad drawing is what I consider a very uncorrect and harmful position.

[counterpoint]

Of course not, this is how it should look like:

[m]

Of course not, this is how it should look like:

Why it "SHOULD"? Do you want to create more piano handicaps?

[rachfan]

Re: The original question--I believe that the entire "playing apparatus" or discrete parts of it have roles as appropriate and timely.  Examples would include finger or forearm staccato, both forearm rotation and full arm rotation, arm weight in portato, finger legato when pedal is not feasible, direction from the upper arm to the rest of the playing apparatus, impetus from the torso, etc.  Almost always the composition at hand will have much to say about it.  Lately, for instance, I've been working on Scriabin's Etude Op. 42, No. 6 in D flat.  I would defy anyone, including the very best pianists on this forum, to attempt to play that piece with fingers alone.  It simply cannot be done--period.  What is required instead is the ever present flexible wrist, but just as importantly, a free-floating elbow to help position the forearm and hand to deal with the incredibly difficult figuration through "synthesizing motions". 

On the other hand, I would also suggest that there is no such thing as "fingerless piano playing" as much as many would wish for it.  Abby Whiteside was the principal advocate of playing the piano with only the upper arm sychonized with keen rhythmic sense.  If the fingers were wet noodles, that was perfectly ok, as they were not needed.  The concept created a short-lived sensation, but once everyone saw and heard the new sloppy "piano playing", thankfully pianists moved on.  Over the decades there have been a lot of pedagogic flavors of the month, some of which were not helpful.     

[counterpoint]

Abby Whiteside was the principal advocate of playing the piano with only the upper arm sychonized with keen rhythmic sense.  If the fingers were wet noodles, that was perfectly ok, as they were not needed. 

ROFLMAO 

[counterpoint]

Why it "SHOULD"? Do you want to create more piano handicaps?

No, absolutely not.

Everyone is free to use the playing technique(s) that work best for him/her.

The idea of playing with arm weight as an universal solution for all and everything was the greatest handicap, I suffered from in the last 30 years. And I will not throw stones at my piano either 

[danny elfboy]

No, absolutely not.

Everyone is free to use the playing technique(s) that work best for him/her.

The idea of playing with arm weight as an universal solution for all and everything was the greatest handicap, I suffered from in the last 30 years. And I will not throw stones at my piano either 

Couldn't it be because of a misunderstanding?
Usually by "arm weight", it is meant lifting and depressing with the help of the arm, the opposite of keeping the arm motionaless and lifting and depressing the wrist.

What is NOT meant by "arm weight", is "keeping the arms heavy and using them as dead weights"

I think the real "arm weight" approach is correct but the name is misleading and many do it literally. Now an "arm dead weight" approach would indeed be disastrous.

[nick]

My understanding of how to use fingers, hands, wrists and arms when playing piano  changed a lot in the last 40 years.

First I thought, moving the fingers is the only acceptable way to press the keys.

Then I thought, moving hand and arm and using the arm weight could totally replace finger movement.

At the moment I come back to some extent to the finger movement technique, because in many cases the arm weight method turned out to be  too delaying and making the sound too heavy.

I wonder what other people think about the role of finger movement and which technique(s) they are actually using.

If the sound is too heavy when using weight, use less weight.

Nick

[viking]

I completely agree with the last two posts.  It's really not that complicated.

[counterpoint]

Couldn't it be because of a misunderstanding?
Usually by "arm weight", it is meant lifting and depressing with the help of the arm, the opposite of keeping the arm motionaless and lifting and depressing the wrist.

That's the question. What is the advantage of using arm weight for pressing the keys - compared to using hand movement or finger movement?

The disadvantage of using arm weight is, as already said, the slowing down and the lack of a crisp sound.

[nick]

That's the question. What is the advantage of using arm weight for pressing the keys - compared to using hand movement or finger movement?

The disadvantage of using arm weight is, as already said, the slowing down and the lack of a crisp sound.

I think the foundation is arm weight, not ALL of the weight, and the rest assist in what is needed. Focusing on details, or the "branches of the trees" leads to endless debate.

Nick

[lostinidlewonder]

This is like trying to understand the forest by looking at a single leaf on a plant.

[rachfan]

Considering any one element such as arm weight ignores synergy of the various functions and roles of the joints, tendons and muscles of the entire system comprising the playing apparatus.  Much playing demands various combinations of "synthesizing motions" in which weight might be one of the forces, but not the most important in a particular instance, or perhaps even a detriment.  When synergy is considered, the parts do not usually equal the whole.  In fact, they can well exceed the whole--which leads to superior performance.

Some background to better make my point: I studied for many years with two teachers.  The second one was of the Russian School, going back through Anthony Di Bonaventura to Isabella Vengerova, a student of Goldenweiser and Leschetizky.  But for my purpose here, I refer here to my first teacher who had studied with David Barnett (a student of Cortot and Brockway, identified with the French School), Miklos Schwalb (a student of Erno von Dohnanyi, of the Hungarian School), and Albion Metcalf, a student of Tobias Matthay, of the English School).

For anyone reading this, Matthay should sound very familiar.  He developed the method of tone production based on arm weight and relaxation.  In addition to Metcalf, mentioned above, he also taught Bax, Craxton and Hess.

I mention this so you'll better understand what I'm about to say, which might sound like heresy to some.  Because my first teacher got Matthay's teachings directly  through Metcalf, you can well imagine that as her pupil, I got a super dose of it as well!!!  But as the decades went on, it seemed to me that tone production through weight and relaxation was SUBJECTIVE in the ear of the beholder rather than being objective.  In other words, I've become a doubter.  Tone depends on acceleration of the key, which can be accomplished by pressing, striking, or arm weight, except that the latter is a handicap, not a help, in playing velocity.  And I'm unconvinced that arm weight necessarily and invariably produces the most beautiful tone.  (Similarly, I believe that Abby Whiteside's prescription of playing piano with the upper arm can result in some ugly sounds at times.)  So for me, I no longer see weight as the hub of the galaxy of pianism.  Rather, I've come to believe that the truth lies more in the holistic system and the subsystems of the larger playing apparatus, acting separately or otherwise in concert or combinations to effect a musical intention through synthesizing motions.  It would be wonderful if it all were more simple, but I don't believe it for a moment.

[danny elfboy]

That's the question. What is the advantage of using arm weight for pressing the keys - compared to using hand movement or finger movement?

The disadvantage of using arm weight is, as already said, the slowing down and the lack of a crisp sound.

I understand arm weight as a misnomer for arm movements
Clearly you can't drop the dead weight of the arm on the keyboard.
Some weight is transferred to the piano but very little as we know that it takes a minuscole amount of weight to depress a key. Yet I don't believe the weight is the only thing that depresses a key (at least while we play a piece) finger motions is important too.

But again finger motions is another misnomer that people understand as "up and down articulation as if the rest of the body could just stay motionally and the fingers do it all"
This is a disaster as much as throwing the dead weight of the arm at the keyboard.

Finger motions means the articulation of the joints in order to press down.

So instead of having fingers that move as if they were meant to move at 180 degree, wrists that articulate up instead of down, dead arm weight that is thrown at the keyboard ...

we have

fingers that articulate in the way they do best (down and forward) and just slighly up as in a sort of "rebounding" after pressing one key before pressing another, wrists that remain relaxed and follow the motions of the arms, arms that are relaxed but whose weight is perfectly sustained by the upper arms - that move up and down to displace the hand, relaxed should that absorb the counteraction of all this "down" motions.

Easy, anatomical correct and simple.

[bob3.1415926]

If you want to play a three note chord with one hand, but emphasise the middle of the three notes (like in the middle section of Rach prelude G-min Op.23 no.5) Isn't this impossible to do without moving the finger you want to stand out?
I don't say this with full confidence, because I figured out how to do this myself, rather than be taught it, so I accept that there may be other methods (I just don't know of them).

[viking]

I've always find it easier to voice certain notes by making the finger longer and straighter.  You get a more consistent voicing that way.

[bob3.1415926]

I've always find it easier to voice certain notes by making the finger longer and straighter.  You get a more consistent voicing that way.

Can you always do this and still hit all the notes together? I would be worried that the middle note may sound earlier, but I'll try it out later today.

[viking]

It's definitely something to fool around with.  You will probably have to adjust the angle of the straight finger so all your fingers contact the keys at the same time.