Why do you hate Barraque Sonate pour piano

[soliloquy]

This is a completely intelligent, unbiased and valid thread.  My question is not a form of ironic sarcasm directed towards an idiot, whose stupidity and either lack of forsight or lack, of how you say... not-being-an-instigative-douchebag-iness... borders on felony.



Go.

[mephisto]

Can you tell me why you like it?

I have honestly not heard it. Care to comment on how this sonata compares to other works like the sonatas of Boulez, Stockhausen's klavierstuckes etc?

[retrouvailles]

I would say it is pretty similar to the sonatas of Boulez, but not so much the Stockhausen.

I don't know why you bothered making this thread. i'd be willing to bet that most people haven't heard it.

[counterpoint]

I don't know why you bothered making this thread. i'd be willing to bet that most people haven't heard it.

It's obvious that this is the answer to my Stockhausen Klavierstücke thread 

Hence I voted for "Because I despise intellectualism, stemmed by jealousy", because that's what I am accused for   And I don't like "intellektualism" much, that's true.

Furthermore I would like to hear the Barraque Sonata or even prefer to see the score.

[retrouvailles]

Yeah, he's just showing everyone how much of a dick you are. Well done, John. I wish that you don't ever hear it, counterpoint, until you learn to appreciate (not necessarily like) this type of music and don't attack it anymore. So, never basically.

[ahinton]

I don't!

This is a completely intelligent, unbiased and valid thread.

So far, I have no obvious reason to doubt that.

My question is not a form of ironic sarcasm directed towards an idiot, whose stupidity and either lack of forsight or lack, of how you say... not-being-an-instigative-douchebag-iness... borders on felony.

Was it necessaary for you to write in this way? Er - no. Why would anyone necessarily assume that, because you have initiated a thread about this work, it is obligatory for you to venture into such caveats purely because of having done so?

Go.

I will. Now. But not before expressing considerable admiration for this interesting and unusual piece, the differences between which and the Boulez Second Sonata are almost as palpable as those between the Boulez and Dutilleux's almost contemporaneous Sonata (contemporaneous with the Boulez, that is) - and also not before suggesting that it needs to be more widely performed than it has been so far; perhaps you might care to oblige...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Oh, the Dutilleux Sonata is fantastic!

Is the Barrauqe sonata a serial work?

[retrouvailles]

Oh, the Dutilleux Sonata is fantastic!

Is the Barrauqe sonata a serial work?

The Barraqué Sonate is a serial work, and even more specifically, I believe it is an integral serialist work. It is similar to Boulez's 2nd sonate, but I like the Barraqué more.

[mephisto]

The Barraqué Sonate is a serial work, and even more specifically, I believe it is an integral serialist work.

Than why does Alistair say that the sonata has just as much in common with Boulez as Boulez has in common with the Dutilleux Sonata?

[retrouvailles]

I actually don't know, to be honest, other than the two are nearly contemporaneous. Perhaps da Ali H. can enlighten us.

[soliloquy]

They're very different texturally; the Barraque is much more atmospheric and, in a lack of better terms, "French", as opposed to the aggressive and dense Boulez Deuxieme sonate pour piano.

[ahinton]

They're very different texturally; the Barraque is much more atmospheric and, in a lack of better terms, "French", as opposed to the aggressive and dense Boulez Deuxieme sonate pour piano.

Well, you have responded on my behalf here, but that's pretty much what I might have said. The Boulez is immensely important historically, of course, although I have to admit (well, I don't actually HAVE to, I suppose, but I may as well do so) that it doesn't do an awful lot for me either musically or as a contribution to the furtherance of pianism (and this even despite having heard it played by Pollini). It is interesting, since you point up the greater sense of "Frenchness" in the Barraqué, that the later music of Boulez seems to want to inhabit a similar area of feeling - a French "tradition" not so much predicated upon the better known and appreciated Debussy and Ravel (whose works he has, of course, nevertheless conducted magnificently) as on the more marginalised d'Indy, Magnard, Koechlin, Schmitt, Roussel and Dutilleux. Of course the later Boulez doesn't sound anything like any of these composers, but I do get a sense that his awareness of this "other" French lineage has become considerably greater in more recent times than it would have been in the more heavily polemic, firebrand-like youth that saw the emergence of that otherwise seminal Deuxième Sonate.

Best,

Alistair

[soliloquy]

Well, you have responded on my behalf here, but that's pretty much what I might have said. The Boulez is immensely important historically, of course, although I have to admit (well, I don't actually HAVE to, I suppose, but I may as well do so) that it doesn't do an awful lot for me either musically or as a contribution to the furtherance of pianism (and this even despite having heard it played by Pollini). It is interesting, since you point up the greater sense of "Frenchness" in the Barraqué, that the later music of Boulez seems to want to inhabit a similar area of feeling - a French "tradition" not so much predicated upon the better known and appreciated Debussy and Ravel (whose works he has, of course, nevertheless conducted magnificently) as on the more marginalised d'Indy, Magnard, Koechlin, Schmitt, Roussel and Dutilleux. Of course the later Boulez doesn't sound anything like any of these composers, but I do get a sense that his awareness of this "other" French lineage has become considerably greater in more recent times than it would have been in the more heavily polemic, firebrand-like youth that saw the emergence of that otherwise seminal Deuxième Sonate.

Best,

Alistair

Hmm.  I'm actually unfamiliar with a "Magnard" or "Koechlin".  Gives me something to look forward to I hope

[ahinton]

Hmm.  I'm actually unfamiliar with a "Magnard" or "Koechlin".  Gives me something to look forward to I hope

Then do check them both out. Koechlin was a very prolific composer as was Milhaud and his life extended from the late 1860s into the era of Hollywood and he picked up all manner of things along his rather unusual way. Albéric Magnard was a composer of considerably more substance, I feel - a slightly older contemporary of Koechlin, his relatively short life came to an end when he became one of the first clutch of Frenchmen to die in WWI. Not an enornous quantity of music, but a fine cello sonata, violin sonata, string quartet and four symphonies all well worth getting to know; one of the greatest French composers of his day, I believe (along with the obviously far better known one or two!)...

Best,

Alistair

[mcgillcomposer]

I wish that you don't ever hear it, counterpoint, until you learn to appreciate (not necessarily like) this type of music and don't attack it anymore. So, never basically.

If counterpoint truly can come up with musical reasons for thinking the piece is garbage, why must he appreciate it? Evidently, he has not come up with any such explanations, but I am speaking hypothetically.

[pies]

a

[soliloquy]

This thread is a repost of a post made by me:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,27592.msg318454.html#msg318454

 

If you want I can make a thread about how stupid the post I'm quoting is, because it seems to me you feel neglected.  Do you need a hug?  And by the way, counterpoint > you, because while he is irrational and illogical, at least he doesn't vehemently try to talk over his own head in some vain attempt to look smart, unlike a certain someone spamming this thread.

[counterpoint]

And by the way, counterpoint > you, because while he is irrational and illogical, at least he doesn't vehemently try to talk over his own head in some vain attempt to look smart, unlike a certain someone spamming this thread.

Is this a thread about size or what?

I thought, it's a thread about personal preferences... 

[pies]

a

[soliloquy]

I am sure that most people think you're referring to yourself here when you mention this 'certain someone' since it is quite an apt description of yourself (LOL CARTER SONATA THREAD).

If you're actually vain and naïve enough to believe such, then indeed you should perhaps reconsider that I may, in fact, be referring to you.  If you are attempting humor, I suggest you put more effort into it, as this falls ferociously short of being even remotely funny or entertaining.  Also, the Carter Sonata thread's hilarity stems from the vehemence of anti-intellectuals, abasing the fact that I showed even a remote interest in the sonata from an analytical standpoint, as opposed to "does it sound good to my ears"; I personally believe the original topic question received such a response (and do remember nobody was able to refute my assertions on the compositional faults of the piece) due to the fact that people such as yourselves are completely unable to have an even remotely intelligent conversation on the topic of music analysis because you lack any knowledge and training.  Instead you simply disagree with any negative feedback a piece you like receives on the sole merits (or in the case of most of the people similar to yourself demerits, as I'm sure the composer would feel) of your personal and completely unscientific inclination towards whatever the piece in question is, and entirely disregard any facet of the actual compositional techniques and progressions, which hilariously is what I was attempting to talk about, utilized in the piece.  Although, refer to your aforementioned vanity and naïveté and hopefully you can see that it is in fact your comments in that thread that are hilariously stupid and inane.

[ahinton]

If you're actually vain and naïve enough to believe such, then indeed you should perhaps reconsider that I may, in fact, be referring to you.  If you are attempting humor, I suggest you put more effort into it, as this falls ferociously short of being even remotely funny or entertaining.  Also, the Carter Sonata thread's hilarity stems from the vehemence of anti-intellectuals, abasing the fact that I showed even a remote interest in the sonata from an analytical standpoint, as opposed to "does it sound good to my ears"; I personally believe the original topic question received such a response (and do remember nobody was able to refute my assertions on the compositional faults of the piece) due to the fact that people such as yourselves are completely unable to have an even remotely intelligent conversation on the topic of music analysis because you lack any knowledge and training.  Instead you simply disagree with any negative feedback a piece you like receives on the sole merits (or in the case of most of the people similar to yourself demerits, as I'm sure the composer would feel) of your personal and completely unscientific inclination towards whatever the piece in question is, and entirely disregard any facet of the actual compositional techniques and progressions, which hilariously is what I was attempting to talk about, utilized in the piece.  Although, refer to your aforementioned vanity and naïveté and hopefully you can see that it is in fact your comments in that thread that are hilariously stupid and inane.

Hey hey hey - I myself was one of those people who didn't seem to give you the kind of response on Carter's Piano Sonata for which you might have hoped, yet the reason for that was quite simply that I accepted (and still do accept) that, whatever the piece has going for it, it simply seems not to do anything much for you, whereas it does for me - which is just the way it goes...

I know, of course, that your post above is not addressed to me, but I thought that I ought to say this anyway. I cannot - or would rather not - comment on pies's remarks here.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

a

[soliloquy]

You are right.  Your scholarly, intellectual, and scientific analysis of the sonata ('the second movement is the exactly the same as the first, but faster and with more useless notes') completely shot down my reason for liking the piece (which was what the thread was about) by quoting Sorabji (an unscholarly, unintellectual, unscientific prick).
Shut the fuck up.  You're a troll and an idiot.

Oh I'm sorry I was unaware I needed to whip out Schenker on it; anyone with half of one ear for music should be able to tell in an instant the harmonic progression of the first and second movements are indentical in BOTH VOICES.  What's hilarious is that a couple members actually offered to show me an analysis of the piece, but neither of them revealed their results.  I guess either they didn't do it, can't do it or found out I was right.  Also, not only did you misunderstand everything I said in the Carter Sonata thread, along with the purpose of the thread itself, you have again misunderstood me.  In fact, all you've done is PROVE ME RIGHT.  You say, and I quote again just for comedic value:

completely shot down my reason for liking the piece... by quoting Sorabji.

Now let's look at the quote you refer to:

What an odd delusion, and how prevalent, that when some composition that one dislikes has been put on the dissecting table, one will dislike it less, or, in that singularly meaningless phrase, "understand it" better. The only result of this ghoulish process, pushed to the furthest lengths of boring absurdity in the analytical programme note, is to make one dislike it even more. It is like someone who, having introduced you to some antipatico person, shows you a radiograph of him, saying, "Oh you are ridiculously prejudiced against him! Just look at what a fine skeleton he has!

Thanks for illustrating my point at how ridiculous it is for you to attempt to have a conversation with me.  I apparently do not have to manipulate you into saying the wrong thing; you simply are so stupid and have so little foresight you do it on your own.  That quote, for people who don't want to wade through Hintonian verbosity, basically says that judging a piece on academic merits is more of an exercise than a way to judge the value of a piece.  My thread was asking about the academic merits; you responded by defending the fact that you personally like it and provided absolutely no evidence of any master craftsmanship.  All you could say is that you like it.  Now, a quote from my most recent post in this thread:

Instead you simply disagree with any negative feedback a piece you like receives on the sole merits... of your personal and completely unscientific inclination towards whatever the piece in question is

You may bend over now.

[pies]

a

[ahinton]

You are right.  Your scholarly, intellectual, and scientific analysis of the sonata ('the second movement is the exactly the same as the first, but faster and with more useless notes') completely shot down my reason for liking the piece (which was what the thread was about), where I quoted Sorabji (an unscholarly, unintellectual, unscientific prick).
Shut the fuck up.  You're a troll and an idiot.

Is this supposed to be constructive criticism? It seems to me rather more like extending the troll factor...

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

Sure, I'm trolling, but only because soliloquy is a self-righteous retard that deserves to have his threads ruined/trolled

[ahinton]

I

Sure, I'm trolling, but only because soliloquy is a self-righteous retard that deserves to have his threads ruined/trolled

OK - well let us take that as an admission, without prejudice or otherwise to the activities of anyone else, either here or in any other place. Thank you for that frank admission. As to the formulaic insult, well that could have gone in either direction, could it not? Frankly, I don't give a monkey's cuss who may at any time choose, for whatever reason or none, to throw insults at whom here because, quite simply, I, in my apparent utter stupidity, continue to labour under the obviously absurd delusion that this thread is about Barraqué and his piano sonata - a work which I would have thought far too important to end up being relegated to the status of some kind of side-show to the trading of personal insults that can have no conceivable bearing on, or other meaningful relationship to, the music itself.

Best,

Alistair

[general disarray]

Just a newbie's question:

Why do so many threads on this forum degenerate into embarrassing exercises in character assassination?

[pies]

lack of proper moderation