What's the best/quickest way to demotivate a motivated student ?

[m1469]

I woud really like to know  .

[leonidas]

Blender + hand.

[goldentone]

I assume you are asking this so that you may take these suggestions and critique your own pedagogical leanings, and so avoid snuffing the fire out of their desire. 

One simple way is to give them too much to do, too many pieces to work on at one time.  Practice then becomes drudgery.

[thalberg]

LOL m1469, you have such a fertile mind.  Always providing us with compelling new thread topics and things to ponder as we go to sleep at night.

Hmm....ways to demotivate.....

I think leaving lots of holes in your explanations, and then faulting the student for not understanding--that is demotivating.  And it happens a lot--my friends' daughter had a teacher like that.

One simple way is to give them too much to do, too many pieces to work on at one time.  Practice then becomes drudgery.

My first teacher did that to me, and on purpose.  Plus, she gave me repertoire that was way over my head.....I don't know if that was done on purpose, but it was terrible.  I memorized everything one bar at a time and didn't learn to read well.  What a great day when I got my next teacher.

[hyrst]

Quickest way?  I'm not sure.  There are tons of ways to demotivate anyone if you find the right key for that person...

Too much criticism - never noticing work or improvement.
Too much false praise.
Creating unattainable goals or expectations - held by student or teacher.
Lack of variety in practice goals.
Not knowing how to practice.
Being too podantic on every piece - expecting perfection in everything.
Ignoring comments and questions from students.
Berating and getting angry for small details.
Telling someone they are not trying when they really are.
Spending most of every lesson doing everything but teaching - ignoring the student.
Not being relational as a teacher - being distant and purely instructional.
Telling a student it is their problem if they can't figure soemthing out, rather than engaging them in creative solution finding.

I ma sure there are dozens of other things, and look forward to seeing more opinoins.

[counterpoint]

A motivated student cannot made demotivated. Everything you say to him (even the worst and most inappropriate statements) will be a new motivation and will make his playing better.

Contrary for the unmotivated student. Everything good you say to him will make him conceited, and everything critical you say will make him hostile.

[thalberg]

Contrary for the unmotivated student. Everything good you say to him will make him conceited, and everything critical you say will make him hostile.

LOL, that is a funny description.  Though I can easily picture such a person.

[dan101]

That's an easy one. Destructive criticism is a big turn-off to a motivated student.

[mattgreenecomposer]

Thalberg's is good.  Everybody has had a teacher like this in college.  But the absolute WORST, on top of that is teachers who get angry when you ask questions.   Just EXPLODE when they ask you about a fingering or something...lol. 

You could also stink the joint up.  I new someone who complained about their old teacher as having 8 cats in her house.  They left not because she wasn't a good teacher but b/c she smelled so bad.

[m1469]

A motivated student cannot made demotivated. Everything you say to him (even the worst and most inappropriate statements) will be a new motivation and will make his playing better.

This is actually how my attitude used to be.  I will say it was my attitude and not necessarily reality, though, because I don't think I actually got better in many ways (though in some ways I did).  I would just "practice harder" -- which wasn't necessarily productive at all since I really had little idea what that means.  Anyway, eventually I didn't just get demotivated but I actually got depressed and lost.  Sure, maybe for a few years a student will take everything a person says and turn it into motivation if they feel they have no other choice, but I don't think that lasts forever (who wants to live their life like that ?).

[keyofc]

Well, you could tell them they have to take guitar lessons instead....

[keyofc]

or make them wear handcuffs while playing the piano -

Now to be serious,
Many times when I'm buying a book about music somewhere - some older person that works at the store - will comment "OH, I used to play the piano"  I always use this opportunity to find out why they stopped.
Usually - it was because they did not ever get a chance to play something they actually liked.
and their piano teacher was so strict - they could not stand it.

For me,
My piano teacher taught me marches constantly (which I hated!) I worked on them - but
I drifted away after awhile from her.  I loved music and I really liked the teacher - but
there was no reward for me in the music.  I picked it up years later.  (However, she did  teach me enough so I could play the kind of music that I did like)

[hyrst]

I agree that students need to actively be involved in choosing pieces.  It is difficult to find the balance between foundational work and work they want to do, though.  Both are necessary.  It is also difficult to get some kids to speak up and say what they want to play or to even know where to start with finding pieces.  They don't have the experience to know what they want p[retty often.  I try to offer lots of different pieces, once they get to 1st grade standard - and I try to find pieces that I think each one will like.  There is such a huge difference in progress when they play things they enjoy - but I don't always succeed.  This last term I have had a few students seem pretty unmotivated, and I have found out towards the end of term that being busy was an excuse for not speaking up and saying they weren't really into the pieces they were learning. 

I think my case is one that shows a certain freedom is necessary to keep interest going.  When I look back, especially now as a teacher who comes across attitudes like my own was, I realise how patient my teacher was.  I rarely did the technical or structured practice I should have doen to be a very good pianist.  However, I loved music.  I played everthing I could get my hands on - but not with good skill and interpretation.  Nevertheless, my teacher put up with me - I bet she pulled her hair out at times thinking I was wasting potential.  But, my love of music was never set aside for some agenda.  I have played many pieces and never forsaken music whenever I have had the chance to have it in my life.

Annah

[slobone]

My worst teacher insisted that I had to play every piece perfectly from the time I first opened up the music. Phrasing, articulation, dynamics, voice leading, all had to be perfect -- everything except the tempo. "You can play it as slow as you need to to get everything else right."

It was an extreme application of that very overrated adage "practice makes permanent." She drove me crazy because I never did figure out how to do what she wanted. I wasted 2 years with her.

[paulpiano]

I woud really like to know 

Long ago, I made one of my students hate piano, because I was too obsessed by technique instead of focussing on the music.

[nyonyo]

Why do you want to demotivate a motivated student?
Are you not able to keep up with your student or the student becomes unreasonable?

If the student asked too much for something that he or she cannot do yet, just tell the truth.
But if they are capable, you should provide the service that you are paid for...If you cannot provide the service, refer to somebody elso who is capeable of taking care of that student.

[jakev2.0]

This is topic is ill-natured and depressing.

[pianowolfi]

Why do you want to demotivate a motivated student?

"I would really like to know" does not mean "I want to"
To me as a teacher it is obvious why m1469 asks a question like that. Of course because you want to know everything about the teaching mechanisms and dynamics. And to avoid mistakes regarding motivation/demotivation.

[alzado]

While not a teacher, I have an answer --

Stopping the student cold midway through a piece because of hitting one wrong note.

My previous teacher did that a lot.  It totally breaks up the continuity. 

I sometimes asked her to make a mental note of the error and review it when the piece was over -- or at least, when a unified section of the piece ended.  This helped sometimes, but other times she was back to stopping me again.

Perhaps if a piece is in the late stages of polish for a recital or something, stopping the student for an error in mid piece might be more justifiable.  Generally, it is very de-motivating.

[kghayesh]

Why on earth do you want to demotivate your student?? My teacher is demotivating me so much and she's giving me a very hard time !!

[leahcim]

I woud really like to know  .

Give them lessons.

You see, eventually no matter what the talent or motivation, they will stop making progress and reach the pinnacle of their ability to play. If that's 30 years down the line, they probably won't notice [and they'll fart on about always learning]

But, if progress stops after the first lesson, well...

[arensky]

Study with kghayesh's teacher!

[guendola]

I recommend an inderect approach that nobody can blame you for. Read Hamlet and other great literature to study details. But in general it works this way: Drop little comments such as "if you wanted to become a good pianist..." and so on, then explain that you didn't mean to say that he can't become a good pianist etc. This will make him think "why did he tell me that in the first place, there must be something true about it" and so on. He will demotivate himself much more efficiently than you ever could!

[slobone]

While not a teacher, I have an answer --

Stopping the student cold midway through a piece because of hitting one wrong note.

My previous teacher did that a lot.  It totally breaks up the continuity. 

I sometimes asked her to make a mental note of the error and review it when the piece was over -- or at least, when a unified section of the piece ended.  This helped sometimes, but other times she was back to stopping me again.

Perhaps if a piece is in the late stages of polish for a recital or something, stopping the student for an error in mid piece might be more justifiable.  Generally, it is very de-motivating.

I had a choral director who did that. We'd start singing a piece, and after about 6 bars, she'd stop us, give a five-minute lecture, and then start all over from the beginning. I know for a fact there were pieces that we performed for the public that we had never once sung straight through before.

It's especially stupid for a chorus, because even if one person in a section is having problems, they can learn by listening to the others.

[keyofc]

paulpiano,
yes - I really agree with you.  As important as technique is - if you can't concentrate on the music too - what is the point?

I went to a piano conference once - where piano teachers could not even play one song - because they were focusing on retraining so much. 

It became an exercise in a vacuum - that had no life.
And if I, as a piano teacher (who loves music incredibly) could be demotivated by their approach - just imagine a little child's feelings.

[squinchy]

Serious response:

Convince the student that [something he's not very good at] is something that came naturally to you, that you don't really know how to teach it, and that eventually, he'll "get it."

[danny elfboy]

The best way to demotivate a student and not only about piano but music in general, is to remove music from the lessons. Lessons can be so bland, boring, dry, technical that one even forgets why in the first place he/she wants to learn to play the piano: making music.

Motivation starts always with a love for music not with a love for finger gymnastics.
The student thinks also of lessons and a teacher as a way not to feel alone in his/her music appreciation, as a way to have a like-minded person with whom to share such passion.
Once you realize that at piano lessons you're learning everything but music and the teacher seems to despise music or be devoid of any musical creativity and emotions, that's the hugest demotivation possible.

[nanabush]

I find it hard to gain a friendly relationship with students when their parents sit in on the lessons.  Young beginners, I understand.  But kids who are 9 or 10 should be able to compose themselves for a lesson.  It's tough to talk to the student when their parent is looming over their back the entire time.  It's like trying to 'act casual' knowing you're on camera.  Doesn't really work for me.  The parents either tell their kid to be quiet, or stop fidgetting, or stop talking about non-piano related stuff... I'm also only 18, and the parents generally try to take authority on what I do - cutting me off, asking TOO MANY DAMN pointless questions about the way I'm teaching, etc.. all throughout the lesson.  And they insist on sitting in, and I can't force them to leave.  It removes the flow of the lesson, and reduces it to a list of instructions that the kid has to endure for 30 minutes. 

I'd say having a controlling parent sit in is a fast way to demotivate the student.

[danny elfboy]

I find it hard to gain a friendly relationship with students when their parents sit in on the lessons.  Young beginners, I understand.  But kids who are 9 or 10 should be able to compose themselves for a lesson.

This must be an american thing because I have never seen parents sitting through their children activities in which they can't interact just be spectators, whether the students are 7 year old and having a piano lesson or a swimming lesson or a gymnastic practice or a tennis practice. Not only the child deserves more autonomy but it's a contradiction when the same parents who sabotage their children autonomy laments their children lack of autonomy, when they're the first cause why the children haven't been able to develop it. If you think about it parents don't sit through their children day at the kindergarten and they don't sit in the desk next to their child at elementary school. So this sitting at piano lesson doesn't make any sense. They'll never develop responsible control over their duties if their only motivation is the fact that parents spy on them and punish or yell at them. And a parent who pretend to care about an activity chosen by the child which the parents can only superficially control (i.e unwanted intromission) is just a banal show-off of interest. Real interest for another person whether a child, a parent, a sibling or a person doesn't need showing off ... it's self evidence in the relationship.

[lau]

This must be an american thing

he's canadian

i can get really depressed about my playing when my instructor tells me to play but i can only play a half measure at a time because of the interventions of his wise words, and just being told things that i don't understand about playing piano

[a-sharp]

(to original question)...

One way - project your own fears about their success/performance onto them - like, letting on that you're stressed or worried they'll be ready for CM ... Suddenly you'll find them not enjoying the process anymore.

[akonow]

I would imagine an extremely quick way of demotivating a student is to shoot yourself in the head after he or she plays a piece. But, then again, you would be risking your life so it probably isn't worth all the trouble.

[general disarray]

I woud really like to know  .

Introduce yourself to the student as "m1469" in one lesson, than say your name is "Karli" in the next!  That oughta do it. 

[morningstar]

to give the student too much repertoire or pieces that are too difficult may only serve to make them work harder if they are already motivated. My...6th? teacher did that and I improved faster than with any other teacher because of it. Maybe being unnecessarily critical of their ability would just make them try harder to please you as well, same for not taking notice of them. Not really sure how it would be done, have to get back to you with that one. Why do you want to know again?

[avguste]

For me the quickest way to demotivate someone is by actually giving him too many pieces.Add to that no compliments and you have the situation you are looking for

[pianoplayjl]

You wouldn't actually want to demotivate a motivated student wouldn't you? I mean wouldn't you like an enthusiastic student who wants to learn? I think its hard to make a student very enthusiastic.

[m1469]

I think its hard to make a student very enthusiastic.

I've read that all you need in order to make a student, enthusiastic or not, is some dust.  

But no, personally I don't wish to deture motivated students, but rather I'm curious about possible traps that could lead to it.  

[pianoplayjl]

sorry. So you are trying to avoid those traps.