fingers glued to the keys

[paulpiano]

Are your fingers glued to the keys when you play?

[rc]

It's not something I think about, but sometimes I play with the fingers 'glued' (we're talking about the same thing right: when you have your finger on a key before pressing it?).

But that's just when it works in a piece.  It wouldn't be a good way to play as a general approach - it can become a limitation, a safety blanket.  What sounds good in playing is a variety of sounds, and it's best to practice a variety of touches.

[paulpiano]

According to Leopold Godowsky, the fingers are virtually glued to the keys in that they leave them the least possible distance in order to accomplish their essential aims. This result in no waste motion of any kind, no loss of power and consequently the greatest possible conservation of energy.

[thierry13]

According to Leopold Godowsky, the fingers are virtually glued to the keys in that they leave them the least possible distance in order to accomplish their essential aims. This result in no waste motion of any kind, no loss of power and consequently the greatest possible conservation of energy.

And he was rigth. All other approaches are wannabes who can't play like this one. Quite hard to achieve it is indeed.

[paulpiano]

And he was rigth. All other approaches are wannabes who can't play like this one. Quite hard to achieve it is indeed.

I'm just wondering why he calls it weight playing instead of pressure playing. The fingers in his own words seem to mould the piano keys under them, the hand and arm are relaxed, but never heavy.

[thierry13]

That is a very long and tough subject. When you play, you never put weigth in your arms. The weigth comes from the shoulders/back. You should never USE your fingers to create sound, tough moving them a little bit more can be acceptable. Your fingers are only there to transfer the weigth of your back in the keyboard, and that weigth must be transfered from one finger to an other. The arms must be in constant movement and relaxation. Soft sound, and any kind of touch can be achieved this way, believe me on that. When you will learn how to sing with your arms, you won't go see backward at wrong technique.

[paulpiano]

Soft sound, and any kind of touch can be achieved this way, believe me on that

What about chords? Do you play them from the keyboard?

[counterpoint]

My fingers are rarely "glued to the keys" I don't understand, why keeping the fingers at the keys is expected to be of any profit.

[paulpiano]

My fingers are rarely "glued to the keys" I don't understand, why keeping the fingers at the keys is expected to be of any profit.

I noticed that when you play closer to the keys there is a minimum of noise effect coming out of your touch and surprisingly you let your piano sing.

[thierry13]

What about chords? Do you play them from the keyboard?

Lifting your hands from the keys is the worst thing you could do for F chords.

[thierry13]

My fingers are rarely "glued to the keys" I don't understand, why keeping the fingers at the keys is expected to be of any profit.

Well ... having the fingers glued to the keys is not NECESSARY for the technique I described, tough it is part of having a perfect technique. It helps you doing minimal movement for each note played, making your playing way more effective.

[paulpiano]

Lifting your hands from the keys is the worst thing you could do for F chords.

I would like to know, if you don't mind, where did you study piano and what is your background?
I'll explain to you, later on, my thoughts...

[paulpiano]

And he was rigth. All other approaches are wannabes who can't play like this one.

According to the same Leopold Godowsky, In legato playing, the fingers rest upon the fleshy part behind the tip rather than immediately upon the tip as they would in passage work when the player desired to have effect of string pearls. The sensation in legato playing is that of pulling back rather than striking the keys. In passages where force is required the sensation is that of pushing.

[danny elfboy]

Can someone explain to me what you mean by fingers glued to the keys?
I'm not sure to understand because I can't imagine playing with the fingers not on the keys (?) Seems to me that in staccato fingers are not glues to the keys and in legato fingers are glued to the keys and there's no other way. Am I missing something? 

[m]

And he was rigth. All other approaches are wannabes who can't play like this one.

You are a funny person, Thierry. According to you, for example, G. Sokolov is a wannabe.... Eh...

P.S. And BTW, the weigth comes not from the shoulders/back, but much lower, specifically from the hips, or even lower, i.e. from the toes.

[invictious]

No, when I play, the piano become parts of me.

[thierry13]

You are a funny person, Thierry. According to you, for example, G. Sokolov is a wannabe.... Eh...

P.S. And BTW, the weigth comes not from the shoulders/back, but much lower, specifically from the hips, or even lower, i.e. from the toes.

I'm not calling any pianist who uses another approach a wannabe ... I didn't watch alot of Sokolov's playing, but I just think his playing is probably less effortless, or would be if used by any other less good pianist. Most great pianists have just got a really weird technique adapted to their own bodies ... but it wouldn't work for just anybody. I was talking in a way that everybody can learn. I can agree with you for the weigth part, but I still think most of it actually comes from the back/is the easiest to really feel it, first. Then you can begin feeling deeper everything, it will just come along(hips,toes).

[kriskicksass]

I used to play with my fingers glued to the keys, and I ended up with tendinitis. Now I have a new teacher who recommends that I sometimes try to make legato effects without keeping a physical legato. It's a good idea to remember that you have to let go every once in a while, even if physical legato is best for the passage.

[thierry13]

I would like to know, if you don't mind, where did you study piano and what is your background?
I'll explain to you, later on, my thoughts...

I'm currently in college studying piano with a former student of Marc Durand, and will next year be in university with Jimmy Brière, with whom I allready had lessons, and got me a deeper understanding of piano technique.

[thierry13]

I used to play with my fingers glued to the keys, and I ended up with tendinitis. Now I have a new teacher who recommends that I sometimes try to make legato effects without keeping a physical legato. It's a good idea to remember that you have to let go every once in a while, even if physical legato is best for the passage.

It depends how you do it. If you force yourself and create tension to glue the fingers, then yeah you'll have tendonotis. What I'm talking about is just leaving the hand on the keyboard in it's relaxed position and transfer weigth from one finger to another. You won't have to think about your fingers having to be glued or whatever : you will allready have suppressed useless movement, and your fingers will allways be close to they keys, and very free, even if they are not "glued".

[jinfiesto]

Oooh... Marc Durand, Nice. Anyways, I don't think that the fingers always have to be glued to the keys. Certainly, it's more efficient to have your fingers as close to the keys as you can to achieve the desired effect, but I believe that this should just be a guideline rather than some kind of Ultimatum. Obviously, one will have to separate from the keys a little bit to release tension, or to achieve different effects, ie more percussive playing, so a throwing action is appropriate there. I think it all has to do with the situation. Although, I do agree with Godowsky's ideas of pushing and pulling the keys. Leon Fleisher says the same.

[richard black]

No, when I play, the piano become parts of me.

Yes, I agree with that. Tools and implements - everything from stone axes to pianos - should best be considered an extension of the human frame. I remember watching a highly skilled lathe operator and thinking that the machine was clearly exactly that in his mind.

Fingers 'glued' to keys has many advantages - of course there are plenty of instances when it's either inappropriate or as near as dammit impossible, but avoiding wasted movement and effort is a good thing in any activity.

[paulpiano]

I'm currently in college studying piano with a former student of Marc Durand, and will next year be in university with Jimmy Brière, with whom I allready had lessons, and got me a deeper understanding of piano technique.

I'm not surprised at all. I was suspecting this way of playing was passed down to you by Arthur Schnabel's tradition.

[m1469]

I find this a strange thread.   

If there is not a preparatory motion (fingers come "unglued" to prepare for playing) for the fingers to play, then stiffness in the apparatus will arise.  A static apparatus is not necessarily an energy-efficient apparatus.  Piano playing is about motion, not stasis.  Energy-efficiency is about motion rather than stasis.  The key to efficiency is in using the correct motions and each piece will ideally be percieved and acted out as one connected motion.  When approaching efficient piano playing as being "about" motion rather than stasis, the only thing I will even come close to "glueing" anywhere is my sit bones to the bench.  Speaking of which ... 

[thierry13]

Oooh... Marc Durand, Nice. Anyways, I don't think that the fingers always have to be glued to the keys. Certainly, it's more efficient to have your fingers as close to the keys as you can to achieve the desired effect, but I believe that this should just be a guideline rather than some kind of Ultimatum. Obviously, one will have to separate from the keys a little bit to release tension, or to achieve different effects, ie more percussive playing, so a throwing action is appropriate there. I think it all has to do with the situation. Although, I do agree with Godowsky's ideas of pushing and pulling the keys. Leon Fleisher says the same.

I agree with that, your "guideline rather than Ultimatum" is what I meant. Jimmy actually studied with Leon.

[paulpiano]

Jimmy actually studied with Leon.

And Leon Fleisher studied with Arthur Schnabel......

[thierry13]

And Leon Fleisher studied with Arthur Schnabel......

Yeah, I know.

[jinfiesto]

I agree with that, your "guideline rather than Ultimatum" is what I meant. Jimmy actually studied with Leon.

Hahaha Thanks. Does Marc Durand's teaching come out of Schnabel's tradition? I wasn't aware of that. My teacher's teacher was a student of Schnabel's.

[jinfiesto]

Whoops, I didn't read a couple of posts. If one of your teachers studied with Leon, they obviously come from Schnabel's tradition.

[viking]

All I'm going to say, is Marc knows EVERYTHING HAHA!!

Sam

[thierry13]

Whoops, I didn't read a couple of posts. If one of your teachers studied with Leon, they obviously come from Schnabel's tradition.

Both Marc and Jimmy(who studied with Marc too) studied with Fleisher. My current teacher was Marc's student.

All I'm going to say, is Marc knows EVERYTHING HAHA!!

Sam

Coming from one of his students, I can only believe it 

[richard black]

I whiled away a rather boring session playing for a singing lesson today thinking about this one. On the whole, I think one should practise playing with fingers glued to the keys and also with fingers ricocheting off like rubber balls, and everything in between. Why not? Can't have too many tools in the box!

[jinfiesto]

True enough, all though it's nice to conserve energy. Keeping the fingers closer to the keys also keeps you from whacking, which avoids producing a harsh sound. At times though, a preparation motion, or a motion to release tension is definitely necessary. Although it's possible to keep your fingers relatively close to the keys and do both.

[ramseytheii]

And he was rigth. All other approaches are wannabes who can't play like this one. Quite hard to achieve it is indeed.

I think he is right but it is not dogmatic advice; Horowitz's pinky rarely touched the keys.  And yet so what if he failed to achieve a standard given by Godowsky as a point in passing?

If you strive for efficiency, Godowsky is right; but if that isn't on your list of priorities, it doesn't matter.  However, if you are even asking to begin with, you probably have some insecurity on the measure, and in that case, you should follow Godowsky's advice and play as close to the keys as possible.  Probably, if you are asking, you have a tendency to stiffen the fingers that aren't playing while others are playing; or perhaps you have the tendency to exaggerate the finger motions in order to "show" the audience something.  Either way, those should both stop.

Walter Ramsey

[thierry13]

I think he is right but it is not dogmatic advice; Horowitz's pinky rarely touched the keys.  And yet so what if he failed to achieve a standard given by Godowsky as a point in passing?

If you strive for efficiency, Godowsky is right; but if that isn't on your list of priorities, it doesn't matter.  However, if you are even asking to begin with, you probably have some insecurity on the measure, and in that case, you should follow Godowsky's advice and play as close to the keys as possible.  Probably, if you are asking, you have a tendency to stiffen the fingers that aren't playing while others are playing; or perhaps you have the tendency to exaggerate the finger motions in order to "show" the audience something.  Either way, those should both stop.

Walter Ramsey

I wasn't the one asking, and I agree with you, tough I have to say Horowitz isn't quite an example in cases of technique haha (even if anything about him was truly amazing, including his technique).

[demented cow]

Liszt and Barere were two more people who kept their fingers close to the keys. They ignored Hanon's advice that 'the fingers should be lifted high and with precision'. No wonder they were such lousy technicians.
One good example where staying close to the keys is a good idea is with trills and tremolos. Keeping the fingers constantly on the keys reduces the distance each finger must travel, hence increasing the speed. There are no doubt plenty of other contexts where speed walls are created by being too far from the keys, resulting in an unnecessarily large distance which each movement must cover. Being glued to the keys is certainly not the solution to every technique problem, but it's certainly worth keeping in mind the next time you have a speed problem.

[nick]

According to Leopold Godowsky, the fingers are virtually glued to the keys in that they leave them the least possible distance in order to accomplish their essential aims. This result in no waste motion of any kind, no loss of power and consequently the greatest possible conservation of energy.

What a crock. Just look at the numerous wonderful powerful pianists to discount that theory. What say you?

Nick

[nick]

I think he is right but it is not dogmatic advice; Horowitz's pinky rarely touched the keys. 

Walter Ramsey

...Not to mention fingers 1, 2, 3, and 4 on most fast scale like passages!

Nick

[m1469]

Keeping the fingers constantly on the keys reduces the distance each finger must travel, hence increasing the speed.

er ... no, it doesn't.  Keeping the fingers always on the keys actually increases the "distance" that "each finger" travels because a preparatory motion is necessary in order to make a sound. 

Even though I used to teach like this (fingers glued to keys), it's actually an absurd concept.  Approaching the act of playing the piano as though you will play with your "fingers" is not going to cut it in general (it's like approaching the acting of walking as though *only* your toes are going to propel you along (hee hee ... that's a funny image  )), but also, approaching the *act* of playing as though your "fingers must be glued to the keys" is like approaching the act of walking as though your feet must be glued to the ground.  That's just not the point and it's missing the point entirely !

The point is motion and utilizing which motion will provide us with the greatest facility for a given circumstance.  If, for example, you lived where there were constantly ice on the ground, you may develop a shuffle in your walk.  Why ?   Because there is ice on the ground and you don't want to slip and crack open your head !  The motion serves a direct purpose and is therefore the most efficient for that particular circumstance.  However, using an icey-ground-shuffle when you are being chased by a lion is not going to get you what you need (it will get you dead and with chunks of you stuck inside of lion's teeths and eventually coming out the other end of the lion !  And maybe even several other lion's ends since they live in prides.  Who wants that ?  Do you ?!  I dont' think so !).  When the lion chases you, you need bigger motions and the last thing you are thinking is how close your feet are to the ground !

Different passages will require different uses of the apparatus and one can simply not approach every piece (and the entire concept of playing in general) with the greatest facility as though the key to piano playing is all in keeping one's fingers glued to the piano !  Sure, maybe some "great" pianists appear to be doing this, but if they are truly great, they are doing it only because they need to be doing it for whatever they are doing !  .

[jinfiesto]

You don't necessarily need a preparatory action. It can help, but it's usually not necessary if you know how to use the weight of your arms and shoulders. If you need to prep, it's not wise to prep fingers individually. Instead, prep in logical groups. Ie for a C major Scale (just for the sake of argument, I don't actually do this) Play 1 then prep 2 and 3 play 1 and then prep 2345

[thierry13]

er ... no, it doesn't.  Keeping the fingers always on the keys actually increases the "distance" that "each finger" travels because a preparatory motion is necessary in order to make a sound. 

Wow ... if you REALLY think that, you must have done lots of Hanon and sticked to it to get where you currently are ... wich is NOT a good thing. Preparatory motion? No. THAT'S the point of having the fingers glued to the keys : you do not need the preparotory motion, and your sound will be infinitely better. Your fingers simply presses the key down from where it was, to the bottom. It's when you suppress that preparatory motion that you can begin to explore advanced technique/pieces well with ease.

[ramseytheii]

I agree that theres no need to lift each finger individually - I assume by "prep" we are talking about raising or lifting.  NOt only that, but it is detrimental to do it!

Walter Ramsey

[paulpiano]

Posts: 1330


  Re: fingers glued to the keys
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2007, 04:12:41 AM »   

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Quote from: m1469 on December 12, 2007, 09:12:51 PM
er ... no, it doesn't.  Keeping the fingers always on the keys actually increases the "distance" that "each finger" travels because a preparatory motion is necessary in order to make a sound. 


Wow ... if you REALLY think that, you must have done lots of Hanon and sticked to it to get where you currently are ... wich is NOT a good thing. Preparatory motion? No. THAT'S the point of having the fingers glued to the keys : you do not need the preparotory motion, and your sound will be infinitely better. Your fingers simply presses the key down from where it was, to the bottom. It's when you suppress that preparatory motion that you can begin to explore advanced technique/pieces well with ease.

Here we are again!
Should fingers be raised while practicing, and if so how high? We know the prescription of the old school that fingers must be raised as high as possible. We also know that piano teachers (and not only in recent times) have recommended never raising the fingers.
Watch great pianists playing and you'll may be learn a lot.
I might come to the conclusion that both solutions are nearly irrational: they factually ISOLATE the physical acting from musical entirety of the piece; the fingers' action starts to become The Value in and of itself. The pianist, having BY NO MEANS possibility to be liberated from the physical stress put on his hands, factually is about to lose focus on a higher, artistically involved activity.

[PaulNaud]

According to Leopold Godowsky, the fingers are virtually glued to the keys in that they leave them the least possible distance in order to accomplish their essential aims

The question is: Should the fingers remain in a permanent contact with the keyboard?
Some teachers advise you so especially when you sight-read. They don't want you to look at the keyboard. They want you to find the keys with the sense of touch.

[m1469]

The question is: Should the fingers remain in a permanent contact with the keyboard?

Yes, that is the basic question here and the main idea behind certain "schools of thought" -- but where is it stemming from and is there actually more to be considered ?  If you want to go with this line of thinking in general, I would throw in another question :

Is this "approach" allowing me to easily and comfortably achieve this passage ?

No matter what the approach, one must take note of what is actually happening while using it and, be willing to make adjustments if necessary.

[PaulNaud]

Is this "approach" helping me to easily and comfortably achieve this passage ?

I noticed that the sound is softer this way.

[m1469]

I noticed that the sound is softer this way.

Softer than what ?  And "this way" over which other ?  And is that even what the passage is requiring ?

[PaulNaud]

Softer than what ?  And "this way" over which other ?  And is that even what the passage is requiring ?

I am talking in general. I tested out both ways: Glued to the keys first and then giving some space and height. The only thing that bothers me when I'm glued to the keys is that I don't feel as free in my movements but I definitely noticed a better sound.

[m1469]

I am talking in general. I tested out both ways: Glued to the keys first and then giving some space and height. The only thing that bothers me when I'm glued to the keys is that I don't feel as free in my movements but I definitely noticed a better sound.

Well, the problem is that an approach to piano playing is about motion through space and height (and velocity in the motions) and there really are not conceptual limits in how we can go about using these spacial dimensions to achieve particular sounds.  What I have been skirting around in this thread is not an arbitrary "argument" to the ideas that have been presented, but in fact a very specific system of posture and movements that are (of course) easier to discuss and understand in person (so the point of me even responding in this thread is probably mainly for my own self). 

My suggestion is that it is a mistake to approach the entire act of playing the piano from the standpoint of a single dimension like height.  So whether you are thinking in terms of "further away" or "closer to" is just not a complete version of piano technique -- though people often treat it as though it is complete (and that's my beef with it) -- and is therefore limiting and in fact, not going to yeild a sense of freedom in playing (though if an individual doesn't know any better, they may not recognize the difference).

[paulpiano]

You are a funny person, Thierry. According to you, for example, G. Sokolov is a wannabe.... Eh...

Can you describe the characteristics of Sokolov's piano playing?
I watched his playing on youtube...