Have I been doing arpeggios wrong all my life?

[slobone]

Maybe I should have paid more attention to my teachers, but I do remember that at least one (of the 5) told me not to swivel my wrist when doing scales and arpeggios. But if you want to play them legato, that means you have to use a combination of turning the thumb under and keeping the forearm moving along so you can get from one group of notes to another quickly.

So I've been trying to do them while keeping the wrist perpendicular to the keyboard, but I can't seem to move my hand fast enough to be legato. And you can only shove the thumb under just so far. Any pointers?

[counterpoint]

As you recognized yourself, "thumb under" does not work in fast arpeggios. It's impossible. Crying doesn't help. Don't try to do it and just make a fast move with the hand. Some people call this technique "thumb over" 

[keypeg]

I've heard that expression before.  Does the thumb acually go over anything?

[shingo]

Here is Chang's own video which demonstrates the technique. I remember seeing this in another thread and it helped me with the same question you had. if not then a search on the subject should reveal numerous threaads with more information  .

mp4 format
wmv format

[counterpoint]

I've heard that expression before.  Does the thumb acually go over anything?

It goes over the keys, yes 

Chang's demonstration is nonsense 

[ridr27]

HI.

Think of it this way.
Instead of turning the thumb under (at all).
Just move it over, rapidly to the next note.
Don't change anything else.
Practice the C scale that way and see if you get the idea.

Hope I helped a little.
Ridr27

[guendola]

There must be a virus spreading the world, I had the same subject with my teacher today. He confirmed me: You don't play perfect legato, there is a very small gap whenever you have to move your hand. It is one of these little dirty tricks that make piano playing easier without anyone noticing

Ok, this doesn't apply to slow-motion appreggios, there you have enough time to do it properly (and people would notice otherwise) and I have seen pianists "rowing" along the keyboard while playing medium fast appreggios (with wrist action).

And yes, Chang calls this thumb-over. And it is easier to play it than understanding his explanation before you can do it right.

[slobone]

Here is Chang's own video which demonstrates the technique. I remember seeing this in another thread and it helped me with the same question you had. if not then a search on the subject should reveal numerous threaads with more information  .

mp4 format
wmv format

It sounds pretty uneven to me. At that speed I can't tell quite what he's doing, but it looks like he's twisting his fingers around every which way. If that's the alternative I'll stick to swiveling the wrist...

I guess my real question was a little more pragmatic: how do I get from where I am now to where I need to be? Are there specific exercises or practice techniques I can use? At the moment I have a noticeable gap at any tempo unless I swivel.

[guendola]

It sounds pretty uneven to me. At that speed I can't tell quite what he's doing, but it looks like he's twisting his fingers around every which way. If that's the alternative I'll stick to swiveling the wrist...

I guess my real question was a little more pragmatic: how do I get from where I am now to where I need to be? Are there specific exercises or practice techniques I can use? At the moment I have a noticeable gap at any tempo unless I swivel.

I will try to keep this in mind and reply Friday this or next week, when we start appreggios in my piano lessons. My teacher is quite clever when it comes to teaching techniques

[ramseytheii]

Notice that when he goes up, and refuses to bend the thumb for even a second underneath the hand, the sound is uneven and nonlegato.

When he comes down, and plays more naturally by allowing the thumb to bend underneath the hand, it sounds legato, and even.

Walter Ramsey

[keypeg]

Is there supposed to be a video with that URL?  All I get is sound.

[counterpoint]

When he comes down, and plays more naturally by allowing the thumb to bend underneath the hand, it sounds legato, and even.

You call that legato and even...   

Something with my ears must be wrong 

This is not legato!

[rachfan]

In playing scales and arpeggios, the thumb should never be turned under the hand.  Modern pianists depend more on changes in hand position and synthesizing motions.  So the thumb should actually function parallel to the hand.  There is no such thing as the perfectly "even scale" or the perfectly "legato arpeggio".  Both are myths.  In playing scales not one of us here is a human metronome, so there will always be some very subtle variances during execution.  And arpeggios actually depend on the sufficient movement of the upper arm in directing the entire playing mechanism in an anticipatory and  timely way, such that the hand will be fully in position to continue playing the upward or downward course of an arpeggio.  Despite the mythology of the perfectly even scale and the perfectly legato arpeggio, we should nevertheless retain those imaginary models in our minds.  Similar to practicing and performing repertoire and always striving for perfection (which we never quite achieve), we should likewise strive for the same perfection in scales and arpeggios.  Although we will not attain it, being mere mortals, we will come ever closer attempting to do so.   

[counterpoint]

Despite the mythology of the perfectly even scale and the perfectly legato arpeggio, we should nevertheless retain those imaginary models in our minds. 

I just wanted to stress the fact, that holding a key down until the next key is pressed does not guarantee a legato sound at all. People think "I press the key, so it must be legato" and that is not the case! Legato is a very subtle thing which depends on fine values of timing and dynamics. It cannot achieved just by hammering on the keys and waiting for the next note 

[ramseytheii]

In playing scales and arpeggios, the thumb should never be turned under the hand. 

I disagree, and I think most people on this forum who observe themselves playing piano, will find many instances where the thumb comfortably, naturally, and practically bends underneath the hand.  After all, that is what it is positioned to do.

It is true that in a lot of the repertoire from Liszt onwards, perhaps even most of the repertoire, depends on playing with the hand as if it were one unit.  Connection between the fingers is less important, and often impossible, as maintaining a consistent sound through moving the hand all over the place. 

Playing without bending the thumb underneath the hand means playing everything by lifting and moving the hand around the keyboard.  But let's not get too dogmatic.  I can think of a hundred instances in polyphonic music, when the thumb must be bent under, in order to maintain multiple lines.  Don't get too carried away with one technique, and imagine that it must be the answer to every problem.

Every pianist should know how to connect music whether they must lift their hand off the keyboard, or whether they choose to keep it on.

Walter Ramsey

[guendola]

Here is Chang's own video which demonstrates the technique. I remember seeing this in another thread and it helped me with the same question you had. if not then a search on the subject should reveal numerous threaads with more information  .

mp4 format
wmv format

Are you sure these are the examples to show how it is supposed to be and not how it is not supposed to be? This is anything but legato!

[ramseytheii]

Are you sure these are the examples to show how it is supposed to be and not how it is not supposed to be? This is anything but legato!

The "thumb over" people are very dogmatic, and believe that those little blips and breaks should be overcome by moving your arm faster and faster till they are inaudible.  In the end, they focus more on the precisely defined motion than on the quality of sound.

They refuse to recognize, that you have to both move your arm, and keep your thumb on the note, in order to be able to obtain legato.  To accomplish that, you have to allow your thumb to bend underneath the hand: practically, comfortably, and naturally.  It works people.  That's what it is made for.  Just listen to the difference in quality of sound.

Walter Ramsey

[slobone]

In playing scales and arpeggios, the thumb should never be turned under the hand.  Modern pianists depend more on changes in hand position and synthesizing motions.  So the thumb should actually function parallel to the hand.  There is no such thing as the perfectly "even scale" or the perfectly "legato arpeggio".  Both are myths.  In playing scales not one of us here is a human metronome, so there will always be some very subtle variances during execution.  And arpeggios actually depend on the sufficient movement of the upper arm in directing the entire playing mechanism in an anticipatory and  timely way, such that the hand will be fully in position to continue playing the upward or downward course of an arpeggio.  Despite the mythology of the perfectly even scale and the perfectly legato arpeggio, we should nevertheless retain those imaginary models in our minds.  Similar to practicing and performing repertoire and always striving for perfection (which we never quite achieve), we should likewise strive for the same perfection in scales and arpeggios.  Although we will not attain it, being mere mortals, we will come ever closer attempting to do so.   

Perfection I don't expect, just a greater degree of control. If some particular notes in an arpeggio are going to be emphasized, I want that to be because it's my choice to do so and not just because they happen to be the ones my thumb lands on!

I've already discovered that it's easier to decide on a specific dynamic shape for an arpeggio, or any phrase, and then try to reproduce that shape with my fingers, than it is to attempt to play it perfectly evenly. But that still doesn't solve the problem of how to develop that degree of control, especially when playing fast.

[counterpoint]

Are you sure these are the examples to show how it is supposed to be and not how it is not supposed to be? This is anything but legato!

Exactly! No two notes of this "example" were legato 

[thalberg]

As you play the arpeggio, the hand supinates, raising the thumb a bit in the air.

You then pronate to bring it back down, and it's already most of the way toward the next note.

That is thumb over.

[dan101]

You've gotten a great deal of useful advice with respect to  arpeggios. Perhaps the bigger lesson here is not to remorse over things that you have been doing slightly incorrectly. Just think of your new information on arpeggios as one of many future learning experiences. Best of luck.

[shingo]

I am not sure I havn't watched it I just  pulled it from this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,17310.0.html

Sorry for the added confusion 

[guendola]

I am not sure I havn't watched it I just  pulled it from this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,17310.0.html

Sorry for the added confusion 

Shingo, that post was fine, it caused a few good comments in between the legato discussion and dan101 gave a good final advise, I think.

[keypeg]

I don't have sound currently so I cannot listen to the files.  Others say that the playing is uneven.  My immediate impression was that of a rabbit hopping as the hand undulated up and down.  I had to ask myself how the fingers can play evenly while being transported on such an uneven structure.  It would be like riding a jeep over bumpy ground while target shooting.  But if it works for people, I'm missing the essential and besides, I haven't tried it.

Read the description in the linked thread.  What jumped out at me was the statement that the thumb is shorter than the other fingers.  In fact, it is much longer than the longest finger, if you measure it from its base at the wrist.  The thumb has three phalanges, not two, and I understand that it is very important to learn to move the thumb at the base, where it joins the hand.  Where does the writer imagine the thumb to start, and from which joint is he or she moving it when using thumb under, though of course now the writer doesn't?  Does this make a difference?

[ramseytheii]

I don't have sound currently so I cannot listen to the files.  Others say that the playing is uneven.  My immediate impression was that of a rabbit hopping as the hand undulated up and down.  I had to ask myself how the fingers can play evenly while being transported on such an uneven structure.  It would be like riding a jeep over bumpy ground while target shooting.  But if it works for people, I'm missing the essential and besides, I haven't tried it.

Read the description in the linked thread.  What jumped out at me was the statement that the thumb is shorter than the other fingers.  In fact, it is much longer than the longest finger, if you measure it from its base at the wrist.  The thumb has three phalanges, not two, and I understand that it is very important to learn to move the thumb at the base, where it joins the hand.  Where does the writer imagine the thumb to start, and from which joint is he or she moving it when using thumb under, though of course now the writer doesn't?  Does this make a difference?

Although your post seems like it asks more questions than gives answers, thank you for the revelatory observation about the thumb starting at the base of the hand. 

Walter Ramsey

[keypeg]

Since I'm restarting the piano after a long hiatus and learing to do scales and arpeggios for the first time I am indeed more full of questions than answers.  However, I did discovery that I have spent a life time not knowing what a thumb was.   

[slobone]

Hmm, well today I dug my old wrist splint out of the closet and tried some arpeggios while wearing it. (Seriously!). Sure enough it stopped me from swivelling my wrist, which forced me to rely on my arm to go up and down the keyboard. I still had a problem with sticking my elbow out, but that's easier to solve because it's kind of obvious when I do it.

I tried a diminished 7th arpeggio in the RH, because that one has the shortest distance between the fourth finger and the thumb. I still couldn't make it sound legato, at any tempo.

I've come to the conclusion that I can only learn this new (for me) way of playing with the help of a teacher. Don't know if it's worth it at my age (60) but I might take a few lessons from one of the local teachers to help me figure out how to do it.

[faulty_damper]

The "thumb over" people are very dogmatic, and believe that those little blips and breaks should be overcome by moving your arm faster and faster till they are inaudible.  In the end, they focus more on the precisely defined motion than on the quality of sound.

They refuse to recognize, that you have to both move your arm, and keep your thumb on the note, in order to be able to obtain legato.  To accomplish that, you have to allow your thumb to bend underneath the hand: practically, comfortably, and naturally.  It works people.  That's what it is made for.  Just listen to the difference in quality of sound.

Walter Ramsey

Thumb over is really for fast arpeggios where it is impossible to prevent the break.
However, in slow passages, keeping your finger or thumb on the key and only releasing it when the the next key has been depressed is possible because you have time for the necessary movements.  But in fast arpeggios, it's not practical. 

[faulty_damper]

Are you sure these are the examples to show how it is supposed to be and not how it is not supposed to be? This is anything but legato!

The demonstration is only to show the difference between thumb under and thumb over.  It was taken completely out of context.  Context for thumb under would be for slow passages.  Context for thumb over is for fast.  But for the demonstration, both examples were performed at the same speed so you can visually observe the differences.

[guendola]

if you can't play appreggios legato at any speed, there is something seriously wrong. Perhaps your wrist is too low generally and hinders the movement of the thumb.

Try the following exercise for a while:

All fingers onto the keys. Now play the key under the thumb, then play the two notes beneath the thumb - again with the thumb, while the other fingers remain relaxed on their own keys. Extend the range of notes played by the thumb when you feel comfortable. You will have to have your wrist at a minimum height to do this properly.

By the way, this is a pretty good exercise for all fingers and your movements will become more economic. But the thumb usually needs it most.

[slobone]

if you can't play appreggios legato at any speed, there is something seriously wrong.

I think that's exactly the point I was trying to make -- something is wrong! I can play arpeggios legato, but not with correct technique.

Let's take a C major arpeggio as an example. I play C with 1, E with 2, and G with 3. If I want to play the next C without removing my 3rd finger from the keyboard, I can't do it just by turning the thumb under (being a normal human being). But I can do it if I swivel my wrist and elbow to the right, so that my hand is at a 45 degree angle with the keyboard. However that's the manouever that I've been told is a no-no.

The only other alternative is to lift my 3rd finger from the keyboard before putting the thumb down again. But whenever I do that I can hear a gap between the sound of the G and the C. Presumably there's a way to do it without that gap being noticeable, and that's what I'm trying to find out -- what's the best way to teach myself how to do it?

[counterpoint]

Let's take a C major arpeggio as an example. I play C with 1, E with 2, and G with 3. If I want to play the next C without removing my 3rd finger from the keyboard, I can't do it

If you have a bad fingering then you will not be able to play in a satisfying way.

Never do the thumb under at a big jump (4th in this case)

Beginn with the 2nd finger on C, then 1st on E, 2nd on G and 4th on C.

Fingering is one of the most important things in playing the piano.

[keypeg]

I won't discuss fingering, but the thumb can move further if you move it from the initial joint at the wrist and not the joint where it appears to join the hand at the webbing.   

[ramseytheii]

If you have a bad fingering then you will not be able to play in a satisfying way.

Never do the thumb under at a big jump (4th in this case)

Beginn with the 2nd finger on C, then 1st on E, 2nd on G and 4th on C.

Fingering is one of the most important things in playing the piano.

That's very good fingering.

About your fear of having the hand at an angle to the piano, get over it.  Sometimes it happens: there is no such thing as hand position, only hand action.  THere is a lot of music out there, music worth playing, which has been written with little to no thought of the comfort of the pianist, so you can't approach that music from a strictly pianistic standpoint.  Sometimes it is not comfortable, and sometimes you need to be flexible more than anything else.

Anyways, it is correct to use your arm when playing passages that can't be played in one hand grouping.

Walter Ramsey

[slobone]

If you have a bad fingering then you will not be able to play in a satisfying way.

Never do the thumb under at a big jump (4th in this case)

Beginn with the 2nd finger on C, then 1st on E, 2nd on G and 4th on C.

Fingering is one of the most important things in playing the piano.

Thanks, I'll try that.

[guendola]

I think that's exactly the point I was trying to make -- something is wrong! I can play arpeggios legato, but not with correct technique.

But I can do it if I swivel my wrist and elbow to the right....ift my 3rd finger from the keyboard...

Try lifting your wrist a bit and keep it up all the time while doing faster appreggios. If the wrist is too low, you can't do thumb-under at all. And try the exercise that I suggested
And for real fast appreggios, do the thumb-under movement while shifting the hand to the next position. It will change into the correct movement after a while and then you can call it "thumb-over" if you like.

Also check on youtube for Valentina Lisitsa playing a Chopin waltz, she is very good at this (but she also uses thumb-over).