Thalbermad v Ahinton -- Getting women pregnant, paternity issues

[shortyshort]

Perhaps emigration is a direct consequence of immigration.

I do not know if any surveys have been carried out, but why are people leaving England? Are they simply searching for a better life, or are they so fed up with feeling like a 2nd rate citizen in their own Country, that they no longer wish to live here?

Thal

This is very true.
I would go tomorrow, if I could.

[thalbergmad]

That would be funny. 

I can imagine a scenario where a Jamaican junkie walks into the Sorabji Archives in Lewisham High Street:

Jamaican Junkie: Hey man, have you got any Bob Marley sheets, innit?

Ahinton: I have no knowledge of a composer of that name, and I would have thought it plainfully obvious due to the signage on the outer wall of this premises, that enclosed within is only sheet music of K S Sorabji. Might i be so bold as to suggest that it could well be to your advantage to perambulate by whatever means is at your disposal, to another sheet music store which contains a more varied stock. I respectfully submit that should you desire to follow my suggestion,  you are greatly increasing your chances of locating the sheets you require by the composer you mentioned when first entering these premises. I would add at this point that i am not responsible for any inaccuracies contained within this verbal remit and should you not locate the sheets you  require, i and the Sorabji archive admit no liability whatsoever. Should any dispute arising thereon be dealt with in a Court of Law, i can assure you that all claims will be contested.

Jamaican Junkie: Whatever you are on man, i want some.

THE END

[ahinton]

Perhaps emigration is a direct consequence of immigration.

I do not claim to have any scientific proof of what I'm about to say, but I rather doubt that most of it is so (even if there just might indeed be the odd occasional exception to this).

I do not know if any surveys have been carried out, but why are people leaving England? Are they simply searching for a better life, or are they so fed up with feeling like a 2nd rate citizen in their own Country, that they no longer wish to live here?

I would hazard a guess that each of these may well apply, though there are plenty of other reasons as well.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Ahinton should move the Sorabji Archives to Lewisham for some experience with our immigrant friends.

Why so, when the archive happens to have very little contact with those who live around here but the population here is already sufficiently multinational to obviate any necessity to incur an expense that I could not afford for no discernible reason to move the whole operation to Lewisham?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

This is very true.
I would go tomorrow, if I could.

You don't say which of Thal's statements here are true but, if you think that one or other or both are so, I'd just like to inform you that no one that I know of is either preventing or otherwise discouraging you from joining that ever-expanding band of emigrants from UK...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I can imagine a scenario where a Jamaican junkie walks into the Sorabji Archives in Lewisham High Street:

Jamaican Junkie: Hey man, have you got any Bob Marley sheets, innit?

Ahinton: I have no knowledge of a composer of that name, and I would have thought it plainfully obvious due to the signage on the outer wall of this premises, that enclosed within is only sheet music of K S Sorabji. Might i be so bold as to suggest that it could well be to your advantage to perambulate by whatever means is at your disposal, to another sheet music store which contains a more varied stock. I respectfully submit that should you desire to follow my suggestion,  you are greatly increasing your chances of locating the sheets you require by the composer you mentioned when first entering these premises. I would add at this point that i am not responsible for any inaccuracies contained within this verbal remit and should you not locate the sheets you  require, i and the Sorabji archive admit no liability whatsoever. Should any dispute arising thereon be dealt with in a Court of Law, i can assure you that all claims will be contested.

Jamaican Junkie: Whatever you are on man, i want some.

THE END

I really do appreciate your wit here; I enjoyed reading that! Having said so, however, I should perhaps remind you that people only visit The Sorabji Archive by prior appointment, so there would be no chance of anyone walking in off the street either in Lewisham or where we are now; you should also remember that we at The Sorabji Archive deal in the music and literature of a mixed race composer who had roots in Irán, so I'm not even sure that any Jamaican junkies would even want to apply for an appointment to visit if they feared that what they might encounter (however wrongly) could possibly have some connection with Middle Eastern terrorism.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I would love to book an appointment, but my next vacation is in completely the opposite direction.

Spending a couple of weeks in the Orkneys. Might drop in and see Peter Maxwell Davies and have a few beers.

Thal

[shortyshort]

I'd just like to inform you that no one that I know of is either preventing or otherwise discouraging you from joining that ever-expanding band of emigrants from UK...

I have commitments that I can not leave prematurely. If I am still alive in about 10 yrs. then I will be gone.

EDIT: Actually ON TOPIC

[thalbergmad]

I think i might go to Romania. I hear they have decreasing population.

Thal

[ahinton]

I would love to book an appointment, but my next vacation is in completely the opposite direction.

Spending a couple of weeks in the Orkneys. Might drop in and see Peter Maxwell Davies and have a few beers.

See if you can get invited for some swan casserole as well. Yes, we have no intention of relocating The Sorabji Archive to the Orkneys although, while you're over there, do ask Sir Peter if he can have another think about what he did with the orchestration of the first two movements of Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum that he made around 1955 (the last I heard he couldn't remember to whom he'd given it - he, by the way, was the musician responsible for giving his friend John Ogdon his first copy of that work and encouraging him to play it - that was, i believe, around 1956)...

Anyway, never mind - some other time for your visit, perhaps - but do try to do it before we relocate to France...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I think i might go to Romania. I hear they have decreasing population.

Then you shouldn't necessarily believe all that you hear; just watch the Ukrainiains, Moldovans, Belorussians, etc. from east of there trying to get in to Romania now that it's an EC country; in fact, it wouldn't even surprise me if, somewhere in Romania, there's a Romanian equivalent to Thalbergmad complaining about the influx into the country of all these eastern Europeans. That said, why in any case would the prospect of a country's decreasing population constitute an attraction for the visitor? Is the population of the Orkneys decreasing, despite immigrants such as Sir Peter?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I have commitments that I can not leave prematurely. If I am still alive in about 10 yrs. then I will be gone.

EDIT: Actually ON TOPIC

Since you say that your remarks here are indeed on topic (which makes an especially pleasant change in this thread), might we ask what those commitments are that bind you to these shores apparently against your will and otherwise better judgement? None of our business, perhaps, but then you can say so if you so wish.

Best,

Alistair

[shortyshort]

Since you say that your remarks here are indeed on topic (which makes an especially pleasant change in this thread), might we ask what those commitments are that bind you to these shores apparently against your will and otherwise better judgement? None of our business, perhaps, but then you can say so if you so wish.

I have two step children that i'm responsible for.
The father would not allow us to take them from this country.
The eldest is also at a boarding school that we wish her to stay at.

When they are both independent, my time to leave will have arrived.

[ahinton]

I have two step children that i'm responsible for.
The father would not allow us to take them from this country.
The eldest is also at a boarding school that we wish her to stay at.

When they are both independent, my time to leave will have arrived.

I had indeed surmised that your reasons might be along such lines and I'm sorry to hear that you are subject to this unfortunate imposition (by which I don't mean the step-children themselves, of course, but the stricture over your ability to emigrate with them), especially if you feel that their education and other issues could be equally well addressed in another country (that's if you do so, of course). Where do you eventually intend to go?

While on that subject, you might have been amused and/or bemused to hear of the latest UK proposals to encourage peope to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen and country (or "Country", as Thal would have it) upon leaving school; leaving aside the fact that, for a whole raft of reasons, this would be almost more risible than it is absurd, it would sit especially oddly in cases such as yours, in that it might seem a rather redundant exercise for your step-children to swear such an oath at that time and then demonstrate its credibility in practice by - er - leaving the country. I have nothing against the principle of encouraging some sense of citizenship, but swearing allegiance to the Queen if one is of Republican persuasion or to UK if, despite having UK citizenship, one is racially non-British, would seem to serve no obviously useful purpose; in any case, why not also expect school leavers to swear an oath of allegiance to EC, since almost all British citizens and British subjects (and/or their parents) possess an EC passportas their principal form of ID? I can only presume that this laughable nonsense is just another piece of governmental puff to distract the electorate from the multiplicity of far more serious issues affecting it, not least this year's Budget in two days' time.

Perhaps the egregious Prime Monster of UK might like next to spout forth some recommendations about the rights and responsibilities of British citizens to get women pregnant and address paternity issues; at least that would be on topic...

I wonder how many new laws have been passed in UK in the few moments that it took me to write this post?

Best,

Alistair

[shortyshort]

I had indeed surmised that your reasons might be along such lines and I'm sorry to hear that you are subject to this unfortunate imposition (by which I don't mean the step-children themselves, of course, but the stricture over your ability to emigrate with them), especially if you feel that their education and other issues could be equally well addressed in another country (that's if you do so, of course). Where do you eventually intend to go?

I think that the education of all children is of most importance, but mine in particular.
The eldest managed to get a scholarship to a very good school, and to take her out of it would be foolish, in my opinion. The youngest goes to the best state school in our area and is doing very well also.

I have relatives from Germany, and often used to wish to live there. But most of them have moved to France for a better, cheaper life.

Where to go will, I think, depend on the state of the world at the time of leaving.

While on that subject, you might have been amused and/or bemused to hear of the latest UK proposals to encourage peope to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen and country (or "Country", as Thal would have it) upon leaving school; leaving aside the fact that, for a whole raft of reasons, this would be almost more risible than it is absurd, it would sit especially oddly in cases such as yours, in that it might seem a rather redundant exercise for your step-children to swear such an oath at that time and then demonstrate its credibility in practice by - er - leaving the country. I have nothing against the principle of encouraging some sense of citizenship, but swearing allegiance to the Queen if one is of Republican persuasion or to UK if, despite having UK citizenship, one is racially non-British, would seem to serve no obviously useful purpose; in any case, why not also expect school leavers to swear an oath of allegiance to EC, since almost all British citizens and British subjects (and/or their parents) possess an EC passportas their principal form of ID? I can only presume that this laughable nonsense is just another piece of governmental puff to distract the electorate from the multiplicity of far more serious issues affecting it, not least this year's Budget in two days' time.

I have heard of this.
I am very proud to be English, and would gladly publicly pledge my allegiance to England, provided its government would return the gesture. At the moment the government don't seem to care about me at all.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

While on that subject, you might have been amused and/or bemused to hear of the latest UK proposals to encourage peope to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen and country

Or should that be Queen and Europe?

[ahinton]

Or should that be Queen and Europe?

If you read the remainder of my paragraph on this, you will find at least my own answer to your question, to which at this point I would add only that there's more than one Queen in Europe currently, which fact might appear to make your question at best somewhat dubious...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I think that the education of all children is of most importance, but mine in particular.
The eldest managed to get a scholarship to a very good school, and to take her out of it would be foolish, in my opinion. The youngest goes to the best state school in our area and is doing very well also.

I can well understand and appreciate your view here.

I have relatives from Germany, and often used to wish to live there. But most of them have moved to France for a better, cheaper life.

Yes, quite a few people are doing that; I will eventually be one of them.

Where to go will, I think, depend on the state of the world at the time of leaving.

Fair comment.

I am very proud to be English, and would gladly publicly pledge my allegiance to England, provided its government would return the gesture. At the moment the government don't seem to care about me at all.

Why would you expect the government - especially the present UK one - to care about anything much beyond clinging onto office? Frankly, the less gestures of any kind that it makes in my direction, the more relieved I will be...

Best,

Alistair

[shortyshort]

Why would you expect the government - especially the present UK one - to care about anything much beyond clinging onto office? Frankly, the less gestures of any kind that it makes in my direction, the more relieved I will be...

I don't expect them to.

As they don't expect me to swear my allegiance.

It would be nice to have a government that even seemed as if they cared a little about us.

[thalbergmad]

do ask Sir Peter if he can have another think about what he did with the orchestration of the first two movements of Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum that he made around 1955 (the last I heard he couldn't remember to whom he'd given it

Leave it to me AH, i will track it down for you.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

That said, why in any case would the prospect of a country's decreasing population constitute an attraction for the visitor? Is the population of the Orkneys decreasing, despite immigrants such as Sir Peter?

1. A large amount of immigrants to the UK are young males, so one would think they are leaving their females behind, which would create a shortage of men. Therefore, there must be a few nice Romanian peasant girls with hairy armpits and beards, suitable for lil ole me.

2. The natural growth rate of the Orkneys has been in decline since 1997, but this has been balanced by newcomers to the Island. The population is approximately 83% Scottish, although the Islanders do not consider themselves Scottish, but Orcadians. People moving from Scotland, would therefore still be considered as immigrants.

Thal

[ahinton]

1. A large amount of immigrants to the UK are young males, so one would think they are leaving their females behind, which would create a shortage of men.

That doesn't necessarily follow; suppose, for example, that a significant proportion of those young male immigrants are gay (not that I'm necessarily suggesting that this is the case).

Therefore, there must be a few nice Romanian peasant girls with hairy armpits and beards, suitable for lil ole me.

If I could believe a word of that (which of course I can no more do than anyone else here, I imagine), I'd wonder why your standards and expectations appear to be so low when at the same time you rant on about the lack of standards of decency in UK these days.

2. The natural growth rate of the Orkneys has been in decline since 1997, but this has been balanced by newcomers to the Island. The population is approximately 83% Scottish, although the Islanders do not consider themselves Scottish, but Orcadians. People moving from Scotland, would therefore still be considered as immigrants.

That's right. The Orcadians are just like the Shetlanders in regarding themselves as non-Scottish (even though some of them are indeed of Scottish descent); that's fine, of course, but they are all EC citizens, just like the Romanians, the Scots, the English, the Maltese, the Slovenians and all the rest (which is, as I've said, a rapidly increasing "rest").  For all that Leon Botstein contends (in an essay in the Mahler Companion) that Mahler was utterly Viennese in spirit and a master of Vienna's cultural politics (and who's to argue with that?!), Mahler himself famously protested that he was "an exile three times over - as a Bohemian in Austria, as an Austrian in Germany, and as a Jew all over the world"; Mahler therefore appeared to understand what is was to be an outsider and a multi-layered immigrant, yet who today would question his greatness? On that (admittedly purely illustrative) example alone, it seems less than easy to believe that the average Orcadian has a genuine problem about the high percentage of Scots living on the islands; what do you think about that? As a Scottish composer living in England it is quite easy for me to perceive the status of "immigrant" (irrespective of legal rights) as something indicative of the outsider in certain particular cases, although I'm not necessarily claiming that this is by definition a "bad" thing, even if it might on occasion prove to be a difficult one for some. Who's to say how successfully or otherwise anyone's music might travel from one country to another at any given time? (especially bearing in mind that this entire phenomenon, like Easter, is almost inherently designed to be a moveable feast).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

it seems less than easy to believe that the average Orcadian has a genuine problem about the high percentage of Scots living on the islands; what do you think about that?

Hopefully, they would have no problem with it at all, since i doubt that Scots would go there to ponce off the state, eat swans, deal drugs, create no go areas, open up brothels, breed like rabbits, get preferential housing, beg in the high street, harrass people to have their cars cleaned and take over the clothes peg market.

Interesting programme tonight on the Poles in Peterborough. Did you see it?

Thal

 

[Bob]

Ding!!!   Round four!!!

I can't believe they're still going.  Heavyweights for sure.  Can someone summarize the arguments for me?  Someone not inolved in the argument, another spectator?

[ahinton]

Hopefully, they would have no problem with it at all, since i doubt that Scots would go there to ponce off the state, eat swans, deal drugs, create no go areas, open up brothels, breed like rabbits, get preferential housing, beg in the high street, harrass people to have their cars cleaned and take over the clothes peg market.

Well, well - surprise, surprise; on certain past form, I'd have thought that you might assume that the Scots, being Scots, would be up for all that kind of stuff anywhere they could! - well, apart, perhaps, from the "no go area" bit (since the islands are so small that such areas would be rather difficult to establish and maintain) and the "preferential housing" issue (since there's so little housing there at all, "preferential" or otherwise). I do think, however, that what you write about here (with the possible exception of swan consumption) are the kinds of thing that one would expect to encounter in almost every urban area in almost every country (and rather less so in rural areas) - and the presence, the encouragement or the direct actions of immigrants are hardly necessary in ensuring the establishment and maintenance of these traditions, as the so-called "indigenous" peoples of most countries can manage this quite effectively for themselves. By the way, a few streets away from where I am there's a married couple of whom the male is half Mongolian and half Afghan and the female half Albanian and half - wait for it - Scottish; they're in their 30s, have no children as yet, have good jobs on the salaries from which they each probably have more tax deducted per month than I make in a year and I have no evidence of their involvement in any of the activities that you mention - not even barbecuing the local pigeons (let alone swans) on a balmy summer's evening. I rather doubt that their being expected to swear oaths of allegiance to Queen and Country (see the other thread in which this latest of the UK government risible and distracting "proposals" is mentioned) would cut much ice with either, but I doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would want such efficient taxpayers to leave the country either...

Interesting programme tonight on the Poles in Peterborough. Did you see it?

No, I didn't; I knew about it in advance but was too busy to watch it. Perhaps you can tell us about it. I imagine, however, that there have been Poles in Peterborough for many years; there is a Polish community in Bath and a much larger one in nearby Bristol, each of which is also long established, the latter even having its own church.

I really don't have a problem in principle with immigration, other than when the numbers coming in so far outweigh those going out that the population movement adversely affects the economy - and nor should I have such a problem, since I plan to emigrate myself and do not expect to be frowned upon as an immigrant where I go.

I think that many of the issues you raise are manifest among the poor rather than the foreign and that poverty rather than nationality is the principal root of the problem. If, for example, all the money wasted - and I really do mean wasted - by governments, national and local, in UK were shared out among this country's poor, a lot of poverty would rapidly disappear here (that won't actually happen, of course). It's no good complaining too loudly about state benefit abuse either, because, whilst it undoubtedly does occur on a large scale, the gross incompetence within the tax and benefit system at all levels from legislator down to tea-maker is unquestionably responsible for at least as much financial drain on the country's economy - and it's worth remembering that there are also many millions of pounds each year in unclaimed state benefits and overpaid tax to which citizens are genuinely entitled and that, if all such monies were claimed and every legitimate tax advantage taken, the nation would be brought perilously close to financial ruin by reason of that alone.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I really don't have a problem in principle with immigration

Neither do most people until it starts to negatively affect their way of life.

It is illegal immigration that is the main problem, as these people are making no contribution to our society.

After watching last nights programme, it appears that immigration has caused more problems for Poland than it has done here. Women are having to do many jobs as there are no longer any men left and they don't have anyone to build their nice new football stadium. In addition, a bigwig from Poland came over to Peterborough to try to talk people into going back, but it appears many intend to stay here.

So, we now have the situation where we are using Polish workers to do jobs that the English don't want to do and the Poles are using Korean workers as they have a shortage of men. So i now wonder who the Koreans are using to make up their shortfall?

In the long term, i fail to see how either Country has benefitted. We have millions of unemployed and a large benefit dependent population, and they will not get back to work until the government gets a backbone.

This is also unlikely to happen as it is possilbe that a large proportion of said scroungers are likely to be Labour voters.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

By the way, a few streets away from where I am there's a married couple of whom the male is half Mongolian and half Afghan and the female half Albanian and half - wait for it - Scottish; they're in their 30s, have no children as yet, have good jobs on the salaries from which they each probably have more tax deducted per month than I make in a year and I have no evidence of their involvement in any of the activities that you mention - not even barbecuing the local pigeons (let alone swans) on a balmy summer's evening. 

It warms my heart when i hear stories like this. Love can certainly overcome all cultural differences and people like this are a great addition to our Society.

The fruit of their loins would be an interesting concoction. A warrior skirt wearing goat herder, who likes wearing colourful hats and eating sheeps bladders.

Interesting.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is illegal immigration that is the main problem, as these people are making no contribution to our society.

Even some illegal immigrants pay tax and those that do so are thereby trying to hide their illegal immigrant status and hoping to get away with it and not be deported. That said, I do agree that the principal immigration problem anywhere is the illegal kind, especially since governments have, by definition, no control over it.

After watching last nights programme, it appears that immigration has caused more problems for Poland than it has done here. Women are having to do many jobs as there are no longer any men left and they don't have anyone to build their nice new football stadium. In addition, a bigwig from Poland came over to Peterborough to try to talk people into going back, but it appears many intend to stay here.

So, we now have the situation where we are using Polish workers to do jobs that the English don't want to do and the Poles are using Korean workers as they have a shortage of men. So i now wonder who the Koreans are using to make up their shortfall?

It goes on going around and around, of course. The fact is that many people want to up staick and go to other countries for all manner of different reasons and as long as that continues to be the case there will be ample legal and some illegal immigration.

In the long term, i fail to see how either Country has benefitted. We have millions of unemployed and a large benefit dependent population, and they will not get back to work until the government gets a backbone.

This is also unlikely to happen as it is possilbe that a large proportion of said scroungers are likely to be Labour voters.

Many of them don't vote at all. The extent to which people have to depend upon state benefits is due to many factors of which immigration plays only a very small part; if we had no working immigrants in UK and those jobs that they do were still not being done by the Brits, the economy may well be in an even more parlous state than it is now, although the other darling Alistair is about to tell us that we've never had it so good, or something...

Best,

Alistair non darling

[thalbergmad]

if we had no working immigrants in UK and those jobs that they do were still not being done by the Brits, the economy may well be in an even more parlous state than it is now

Undoubtedly true, but the Government must get more Brits back to work. The dependency culture means that the rest of us will pay even more tax (which we undoubtedly will after the budget).

The Govenrments inablility to sufficiently fund local councils for expenses incurred with looking after illegal immigrants will also increase taxation.

All we need to do is to construct some machine gun posts at all of the ports and the problem will be solved.

Thal

[ahinton]

Undoubtedly true, but the Government must get more Brits back to work. The dependency culture means that the rest of us will pay even more tax (which we undoubtedly will after the budget).

I can only agree with part of this; the first part I can only agree with in part, by which I mean that one manifestation of this "dependency culture" is a dependency upon the government of the day to do too much. Of course it has (or should have) some rôle is helping to encourage people to get work, but we should not expect all responsibility for this to rest with the government. The more we expect the governmet to do, the more it will have to spend on doing (or not doing) it and so the more taxes we'll all be expected to pay or avoid.

The Govenrments inablility to sufficiently fund local councils for expenses incurred with looking after illegal immigrants will also increase taxation.

The government has to fund all aspects of dealing with breaches of the law; the amounts devoted specifically to deling with illicit immigration are but a small part of its overall spend in policing and prosecuting crime of all kinds. All of that spend impacts upon the required tax take.

All we need to do is to construct some machine gun posts at all of the ports and the problem will be solved.

Anyone who seriously believes that this would solve all the government's crime problems and its expenditure in dealing with them would be living in cloud-cuckoo-land, but even were one to take this seriously for a moment, it would be necessary to ask who would pay for the requisite legislation for them, for the posts themselves, for their staffing, for the myriad accompanying security measures, for disposal of anyone killed and treatment of anyone injured at any of them and, above all, the costs of all the hundreds of thousands of lawsuits arising as a direct consequence of their misuse? Got it in one - the taxpayer!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The government has to fund all aspects of dealing with breaches of the law; the amounts devoted specifically to deling with illicit immigration are but a small part of its overall spend in policing and prosecuting crime of all kinds.

Might be a small part in some areas, but it is an ever increasing one in others. I think Kent had 40 million shortfall. Could have built some machine gun posts with that.

Congrats to Mr Darling for putting up child benefit. What a twat.

Thal

[ahinton]

It warms my heart when i hear stories like this. Love can certainly overcome all cultural differences and people like this are a great addition to our Society.

The fruit of their loins would be an interesting concoction. A warrior skirt wearing goat herder, who likes wearing colourful hats and eating sheeps bladders.

Interesting.

I wonder if they agree with you and that this is why there has so far been no such fruit?(!)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Might be a small part in some areas, but it is an ever increasing one in others.

That I do not doubt, but I still maintain that the issue of illegal immigration costs the government only a small fraction of the total crime-addressing budget.

Congrats to Mr Darling for putting up child benefit. What a twat.

Someone said to me only today "don't you fell you want to change your name?", to which I instantly replied "no - I want him to change his". I do agree with you that child benefit is one of the less acceptable of state benefits, in that state malt whisky benefit doesn't address the need of people to buy the malt whisky that they would otherwise be unable to afford, if you see what I mean; I admit that there are many reasons why I have never wanted to be a parent, but one of the more significant of them has always been that I simply cannot afford to fund all of that myself, which I would feel a responsibility to do without any state help whatsoever if I did become a parent.

The more important issue over the dull and boring Darling Budget of March is that if only we all stopped expecting the government of the day to do so much (and if only they didn't themsevles foster that expectation as though their lives depended upon it - which one might argue they do, to a point), then we'd be in less of a taxation mess than we are; the scenario of tax legislators constructing ever more complex and onerous tax régimes only to have the bigshot accountants and financial advisers find ever more loopholes therein is quite sickening, because all it ever does in perpetuating that bloodless but profoundly pernicious war is ensure the ever-increasing wastage of money on all sides.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

That I do not doubt, but I still maintain that the issue of illegal immigration costs the government only a small fraction of the total crime-addressing budget.

Let us hope that it is small, but i fear it is not when you have to add on the absurd millions now spent on translators, for the poor immigrants that cannot be bothered to learn English.

It does not cost the government anything, it costs me and you, and when they do not provide local councils sufficient to cover costs incurred by illegal immigrants, its costs us even more.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I admit that there are many reasons why I have never wanted to be a parent, but one of the more significant of them has always been that I simply cannot afford to fund all of that myself, which I would feel a responsibility to do without any state help whatsoever if I did become a parent.

I am with you 100% on this one, i feel exactly the same.

However, thousands of little teenage mums will now been clapping their hands with glee as they will be able to afford another packet of cigarettes every week.

Thal

[ahinton]

Let us hope that it is small, but i fear it is not when you have to add on the absurd millions now spent on translators, for the poor immigrants that cannot be bothered to learn English.

I agree that this cost alone is not small, yet some of the poorer immigrants cannot afford to learn English and, for all that one might sympathise with them for this particular consequence of their poverty, the immigrants who do best are those who become the most proficient in English. I might add, however, that and increasing number of signs, etc., even in France include English translations and it must be remembered that English is not merely the principal language (so far!) in UK but a major language in many other parts of the world whose use continues to increase. If you do go to Romania, won;t you expect there to be people who can translate into English for you or will you not go until you are at least reasonably proficient in Romanian?

It does not cost the government anything, it costs me and you, and when they do not provide local councils sufficient to cover costs incurred by illegal immigrants, its costs us even more.

Nothing costs the government anything because it has no money of its own - only that which it sequesters from us; the cost of illegal immigrants (and I am not at all defending illegal immigrants) is only one cost of very many that the government can therefore not meet from its own resources.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am with you 100% on this one, i feel exactly the same.

However, thousands of little teenage mums will now been clapping their hands with glee as they will be able to afford another packet of cigarettes every week.

You know, Thal, this is where I really do think that you're wrong; the number of young women who deliberately go through pregnancy, childbirth and all that follows purely in order to get another weekly packet of fags or any other handout is infinitesimally small; people whose principal concern is to screw the state for every penny that they can get are not usually the sort that are prepared to make any sacrifices that are other than absolutely dire necessities in order to get what they want.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Might not be in Bath mate. You need to spend a few weeks where i live.

The budget has been very kind to single mothers. This simply encourages more pond scrapings to breed.

Thal

[ahinton]

Might not be in Bath mate. You need to spend a few weeks where i live.

The budget has been very kind to single mothers. This simply encourages more pond scrapings to breed.

Frankly, I doubt that there's a whole lot of difference between the single (and not necessarily single) mothers of Bath and those of Gravesend in this regard; I still maintain that, whilst there is undoubtedly no shortage of mothers who cannot afford to raise their children without state aid (and you already know enough of my views on that, the reasons for it, its defensibility or otherwise and the proper responsibilities that should fall to parents), there are very few women who deliberately get pregnant and give birth to children for the sole specific purpose of qualifying for state or other social benefits for which they would otherwise be ineligible.

This week's UK Budget strikes me as being pretty much as inept as most of the recent ones, but the extent to which it has been "kind to single mothers" might arguably depend to a certain extent upon whether those single mothers drive gas-guzzling cars and drink spirits.

You seem to have a lot of ponds in your neighbourhood; might it not be better were at least some proportion of the moeny you'd otherwise have the government spend on "machine gun posts" allocated instead to draining them and filling them in?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Hinty, i have considerable experience with the lower end of society. I worked for a Bank in a deprived area for nearly 20 years and a large portion of that was dealing with the pond.

Children are a passport to benefits and housing and the pond are most certainly aware of this.

Having children should be means tested and i strongly feel that an exam should have to be taken in order to apply for a pregnancy licence. As a Country, we must be careful as to which sections of Society are allowed to breed.

By cutting down on pond pregnancies, we are decreasing the benefit bill in years to come and probably the prison population as well.

Thal

[ahinton]

Hinty, i have considerable experience with the lower end of society. I worked for a Bank in a deprived area for nearly 20 years and a large portion of that was dealing with the pond.

But Thal, that is not the only end of society, is it? - and people from all echelons of society have children and almost all of them derive financial benefits of some kind therefrom, whether they can afford to go without them or not (i.e. if not via the social security system then via the tax system). So it's not all about what you charmingly call "pond life", by which phrase your appear to define everyone below a certain unspecified (but fairly low) income threshold.

Children are a passport to benefits and housing and the pond are most certainly aware of this.

So are you telling me that poor people (your "pond" people") who have no children don;t get any such benefits? Of course they do - and the extra ones that those with children get are hardly profitable.

Having children should be means tested and i strongly feel that an exam should have to be taken in order to apply for a pregnancy licence. As a Country, we must be careful as to which sections of Society are allowed to breed.

By cutting down on pond pregnancies, we are decreasing the benefit bill in years to come and probably the prison population as well.

Well, I'm sure that the next right-wing Fascist government that gets elected in UK will introduce some such measures. I'm not 100% in disagreement with what you say here (only 99%), but it's up to individual people to consider their own means before having families, as I would have done had I wanted one.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

by which phrase your appear to define everyone below a certain unspecified (but fairly low) income threshold.

This is pond. Nothing to do with income, as due to benefits, they are probably earning more than me.

We neem to stop them from multiplying and this can only be acheived by cutting benefits.

Thal

[berrt]

Having children should be means tested and i strongly feel that an exam should have to be taken in order to apply for a pregnancy licence. As a Country, we must be careful as to which sections of Society are allowed to breed.

An excellent opportunity for bureaucrats going mad!

B.

[thalbergmad]

Gone mad over here berrt.

Thal

[ahinton]

This is pond. Nothing to do with income, as due to benefits, they are probably earning more than me.

We neem to stop them from multiplying and this can only be acheived by cutting benefits.

Thal

I've never "neemed" any of them - and "i" before "e" especially when cutting benefits - something which people would have to elect a government to do on the understanding that their electoral mandate would be to increase them beyond all recognition, just so's when they get into office they'll do just what we've come to expect all governments to do - i.e. the exact opposite of what they'd loudly promised in their election manifesto. Anyway, people can't "earn" more than you by virtue of receiving benefits; you "earn" your money by working (as I'm sure you've noticed).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK then, receives more than me, gets more than me or perhaps takes home more than me.

Whatever way you look at it, the pond needs to be decreased.

Thal

[ahinton]

OK then, receives more than me, gets more than me or perhaps takes home more than me.

Whatever way you look at it, the pond needs to be decreased.

I wasn't looking at it, as it happens (and, after all, its portrayal as you presented it here is hardly a pretty sight), but I did commend you to consider the possibility of draining and filling in the many ponds of Gravesend as a preferable option to the setting up of machine gun posts, did I not?

Best,

Alistair

[pianochick93]

Ding!!!   Round four!!!

I can't believe they're still going.  Heavyweights for sure.  Can someone summarize the arguments for me?  Someone not inolved in the argument, another spectator?

Sorry Bob, it seems no-one is paying any attention anymore.

[ahinton]

Let me try to help you out, then.

1. The "arguments" - if indeed there are any here that can realistically be dignified by that term - are supposedly about getting women pregnant and issues of paternity; little discussion of these seem to have been forthcoming.
2. In terms of heavyweight status, I cannot speak for Thal (although I think that he has spoken for himself quite clearly on that issue on several occasions elsewhere on this forum), but it certainly is not something for which I qualify.
3. As far as the subject matter covered in this thread is concerned, much emphasis has been placed upon various political issues including state benefits, poverty, immigration and the like, of which Thal has invariably been the instigator and I a mere respondent; indeed, I have even advocated at one point that, should these matters be deemed worthy of discussion, they should be transferred to a dedicated thread.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Thanks Mr Darling for giving loads more money to single mums.

The poor things need it.

Thal