Thalbermad v Ahinton -- Getting women pregnant, paternity issues

[Bob]

Argue away. 

Spun out of this thread.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/board,7/topic,28853.20.html#msg332778

[ahinton]

Argue away. 

Spun out of this thread.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/board,7/topic,28853.20.html#msg332778

Don't you mean "spin"? Anyway, why bother; it's a discussion of sorts (and, as such, one of hundreds here), not a battle!

Best,

Alistair

[pianochick93]

Don't you mean "spin"?

If he meant spin, I believe it would be better if it was phrased 'A spin out of this thread'

Anyway Thal, you try having a period, and see how happy you are.

[pianochick93]

whilst said women takes months off sitting on their arse eating choccies.

Pregnancy does appear to be an excuse to get out of work. As I said to one of my female bosses once. "If you wanted a career, you shouldn't have had the bloody thing".

Ok.
1. Towards the end of your pregnancy, you put on a lot of weight, as you are eating for both you and the baby, and the baby just keeps getting bigger.
2. You are carrying this weight around all day, everyday. You get very very exhausted.
3. The damn thing even wakes you up by kicking you in the middle of the night if it wont keep still.
4. Choccies aren't good for you when you are pregnant. Any woman who wants her baby to be properly nourished should be eating fruit all day, not choccies.

Having said all of that. To many women having a child is absolutely the best thing that had ever happened to them. Would you take that away from them?

[Bob]

I meant spun.  Stop nitpicking grammar! :-p

Maybe if the government provided a temp worker while the lady is out.  Except that's still everyone paying a pregnancy, but that doesn't put any burden on the other workers. 

I'm not sure "parent licenses" are a bad idea.  There are too many messed up, neglected kids out there. 



I have to go brush my cat's teeth now...

[ahinton]

I meant spun.  Stop nitpicking grammar! :-p

I wasn't; I was just putting a somewhat different - er - "spin" on it...

Maybe if the government provided a temp worker while the lady is out.  Except that's still everyone paying a pregnancy, but that doesn't put any burden on the other workers. 

No, but that would constitute subsidised pregnancies to an even greater extent than may be implied by the use of maternity leave and I'm sure Thal would be horrified by such an idea and I'm by no means sure thatI could go along with it either.

The point, however, is to put what Thal was talking about into a wider, yet similar, context. To do so on the back of his question, would one choose a 59 year old man over a 29 year old woman? or a unionised man over a non-unionised woman? - etc. etc. In the end what both Thal and I and others recognise is that every employer wants to prioritise future value for money in selecting particular employees and, in order to do this, many factors need to be considered besides the risk of the maternity leave. Give me a brilliant and well-organised woman than a man who is less so any day (if I were to have to employ one of them).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Anyway Thal, you try having a period, and see how happy you are.

I assure you, that when some of the women i have worked with are "on the blob", i suffer just as much, if not more.

When "Aunty Flo" pays a visit, it aint just women who suffer.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Having said all of that. To many women having a child is absolutely the best thing that had ever happened to them. Would you take that away from them?

Most definately YES.

Women who want careers and a baby are greedy. You cannot have everything in life and sometimes, you have got to make a choice.

Thal

[Bob]

I wasn't; I was just putting a somewhat different - er - "spin" on it...

(annoyed... yet also amused)


I wonder why the business gets stuck paying for it all.  It does make that candidate appear to be a negative if the business has t pay out money and still get that work done.  I've seen and heard plenty of places that are searches for a "full house" of every type of person available.  The people who hire are sitting there thinking it's a negative if it's a young female candidate, and they do want to know the answer to that question -- Is she just going to get pregnant and leave the business paying for it?  On the other side, I've seen places promoting their staff diversity when they can if they have one of everyone there.

Not that this dicussion is solving anything. 

How about having licenses for parents?  "License to procreate" or "License to Reproduce" ?  Give advantage to those who show they will and are good parents.  I've seen plenty of neglected kids who mess things up, though it's not exactly their fault.

[thalbergmad]

"License to Reproduce" ? 

Scrapping all child benefit would help.

Thal

[jlh]

Don't you mean "spin"? Anyway, why bother; it's a discussion of sorts (and, as such, one of hundreds here), not a battle!

Best,

Alistair

No, he meant "spun", but I'd like to nitpick a bit further:  "spun off" instead of "spun out"...

Signed,
The Eternal Nitpicker

[Bob]

Spun, yes...  spun out of the other thread.

Or... spin off of the other thread.


(sounds it out)
spin... spun... spin.. spun... spun... If-it-wasn't-for-my-horse-I-never-would-have-made-it-through-college.... (brain pops)

[pianochick93]

Most definately YES.

Women who want careers and a baby are greedy. You cannot have everything in life and sometimes, you have got to make a choice.

Thal

Some, maybe most, families can't support a child if only one parent is working. It isn't as black and white as one or the other.

[thalbergmad]

Some, maybe most, families can't support a child if only one parent is working.

Fine, don't have one then.

Why should empoyers/employees have to suffer?

If you can't afford something, go without.

Thal

[pianochick93]

Fine, don't have one then.

Why should empoyers/employees have to suffer?

If you can't afford something, go without.

Thal

Are they really suffering that much - losing one employee for a few months? If every female in the workforce didn't have a child, the human race would diminish.
Once a child is weaned, even before that, a mother is able to go back to work. Many however, don't want to, as it is not the best option to have a child in childcare all the time.

[thalbergmad]

If you are operating a small business with maybe only a workforce of 4 or 5, losing one person can have a drastic effect. I know this as I have experienced it.

In a larger business, it is possible that many women will be on maternity leave at the same time, so the effect can be just as great.

What is the point in having a child and then dumping it in a nursery?. You are hardly going to see it growing up and their is a greater risk of it becoming retarded.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

Sorry Ahinton, i have to agree with Thal. Maybe its not fair for the women, but highly pregnant women cant work. Thats what gives the male the advantage, especially if your business product is very dependent on that job.

[thalbergmad]

Sorry Ahinton, i have to agree with Thal.

That does not happen very often. Thanks.

AH probably does not have any females helping out at the Sorabji Archive.

Thal

[michel dvorsky]

Maury: Welcome back to the show. We're about to find out whether Alistair is the father of Sue-Ann 4 year old baby Rodney. Let's get him up on the screen.
Audience: *awww*
Sue-Ann: I'm tellin' you Maury, the baby's got his EYES
Alistair: Maury, dat kid look NOTHIN like me, man she just be spinnin lies
Sue-Ann's Mother Jo-anne: You better pay child support you bastard
Alistair: Whatever, b****
Maury: Well, we've got the results of the paternity test right here...
*tension*
Maury: Alistair, you are NOT the father!
Alistair: ...I TOLD Y'ALL SHE WAS A HO!!! YEAAAH

 

[thalbergmad]

Unlikely but amusing scenario.

Hinty on the Jeremy Kyle show would have to be a 4 hour special.

Thal

[ahinton]

Unlikely but amusing scenario.

Hinty on the Jeremy Kyle show would have to be a 4 hour special.

Thal

No, actually, it would be a very short appearance - about 4 hours shorter than you suggest, in fact, thanks all the same.

What I think you omit to consider here is that, as someone else has already observed here, most couples cannot afford to live on just one salary, so both parties have to work. If all women who are either married to or in civil partnerships with men and who cannot afford not to work agree not to have children during their years of employment (as you would appear to advocate), only the wealthiest of women (who could afford not to work) would ever be able to have children; can you imagine the effect that this would have over, say, two to three generations? For one thing, employers would be struggling to find anyone to work for them, since the younger population would have become minuscule in number.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Scrapping all child benefit would help.

Thal

Help what? Help this present UK government to make a few less mistakes than it already does, perhaps, but what else?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

If all women who are either married to or in civil partnerships with men and who cannot afford not to work agree not to have children during their years of employment (as you would appear to advocate), only the wealthiest of women (who could afford not to work) would ever be able to have children

Great, it would keep the "pond" part of society from multiplying.

Thal

[ahinton]

AH probably does not have any females helping out at the Sorabji Archive.

Now I appreciate your use of the word "probably" here, since you can have no idea how many females there might be here, either "helping out" or in any other capacity, but what I can confirm (although I thought that I'd already done so) is that I do not have any females or males on the payroll as I am not an employer; not every organisation necessarily has always to engage people under contracts of employed service in order to get them to do things that need doing.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

For one thing, employers would be struggling to find anyone to work for them, since the younger population would have become minuscule in number.

Complete bollox.

In 10 years or so, half the population of Eastern Europe will live here.

Don't you have any Poles in Bath.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Help what?

Scum from procreating.

[ahinton]

Great, it would keep the "pond" part of society from multiplying.

Should it be assumed from this that you believe that only the wealthiest of women who can afford not to work should be allowed to have children and that all children born to any women other than those in that group contribute to "the "pond" part of society"? I repeat (using your own terms) that, if the pond dries up entirely, employers will be able to find almost no one to employ, especially if that tiny number of children born to wealthy women become sufficiently wealthy in their own right to be able to afford not to work.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Scum from procreating.

So all working men and women responsible for having children are "scum", just because they work as well as procreate? OK, we now know exactly where you stand on this subject!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

So all working men and women responsible for having children are "scum", just because they work as well as procreate? OK, we now know exactly where you stand on this subject!

Best,

Alistair

I refer to those which use children to increase benefits and get to the front of the council housing queue.

Thal

[ahinton]

In 10 years or so, half the population of Eastern Europe will live here.

Leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of that fraction, what's that got to do with the subject under discussion? I had assumed you to be referring to all people working in this country, regardless of nationality and that your belief about working women not being allowed to have children during their term of work would apply to all women, irrespective of origin.

Don't you have any Poles in Bath.

Of course - and there have been many Poles in UK for many years, some of whom fought during WWII, so that's hardly anything new. What you also seem to forget when you get on to immigration (which, as I stated, is not the subject under discussion here) is the sheer numbers of people leaving this country; yes, the balance of nationalities in changing here, without doubt, but then so it is wherever all the Brits leaving this country go.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I refer to those which use children to increase benefits and get to the front of the council housing queue.

Ah, so are now now beginning to accept the possibility that it's OK for women to have children while they're under employment contracts provided that they do not abuse the benefits system by so doing, or are you simply saying that it's not OK but at least those women are not "scum"?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of that fraction, what's that got to do with the subject under discussion?

I used it to illustrate that the workforce is hardly likely to run out.

[thalbergmad]

Ah, so are now now beginning to accept the possibility that it's OK for women to have children while they're under employment contracts provided that they do not abuse the benefits system by so doing, or are you simply saying that it's not OK but at least those women are not "scum"?

Scum do not work.

They congregate outside McDonalds spending their child benefit on cheap cider.

Thal

[ahinton]

I used it to illustrate that the workforce is hardly likely to run out.

Then it's a poor illustration, for if all the Eastern European immigrants kept to the Thalbergmad rules that working women must not give birth during terms of employment, the workforce would get close to running out; perhaps what you sought to imply was that Eastern European immigrants would take no notice of those Thalbergmad rules, in which case the illustration is less poor but what it illustrates is less relevant!

Let me assure you that if I ever do decide to employ anyone, the first person I'd approach would probably be you! At least I know that you wouldn't dream of exploiting either my employ or the benefits system or expect paternity leave if ever you fathered a child!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Scum do not work.

In that case, they are not part of this discussion, which is specifically about working women and procreation.

They congregate outside McDonalds spending their child benefit on cheap cider.

Well, let's hope that neither McDonalds nor the manufacturers of cheap scrumpy for scum employ women who get pregnant; that would never do, would it?!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Let me assure you that if I ever do decide to employ anyone, the first person I'd approach would probably be you! At least I know that you wouldn't dream of exploiting either my employ or the benefits system or expect paternity leave if ever you fathered a child!

Thank you, i agree completely. This is why it is better not to employ women of child bearing age.

If only there were more employers like you.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Well, let's hope that neither McDonalds nor the manufacturers of cheap scrumpy for scum employ women who get pregnant; that would never do, would it?!

They do not need to work.

The Labour Party are giving them money and houses. Why would they work.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thank you, i agree completely. This is why it is better not to emply women of child bearing age.

If only their were more employers like you.

Thank you for the compliment, although I would never consider employing anyone who might get pregnent if their speling was as bad as sum peple's is...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

They do not need to work.

The Labour Party are giving them money and houses. Why would they work.

The Labour government will not be in power forever, you know!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

The field's your for a while now, Thal. I'm off to get someone pregnant. I mean I'm off to do some work.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The Labour government will not be in power forever, you know!

Thank the Lord for that, but millions of people on benefit will probably vote for them.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I'm off to get someone pregnant.

Don't do it.

Best to wear some willie wellies.

Nite.

Thal

[ahinton]

Don't do it.

Best to wear some willie wellies.

It's such a shame that you persist in selective quotation before you post your reponses. I'm sure that you realise that you were replying to a joke of sorts. As to "willie wellies" - and assuming that what you meant by your reference to these things was not the kind of footwear worn by Sir William Walton as he strolled around his estate in Ischia - let me assure you of two things; firstly, I simply cannot get into wellies at all unless they have a zip down the side (I'm talking of traditional wellies here, of course) and secondly I do not need any kinds of wellie - willie or otherwise - in order to do what I said I was about to do - namely some work.

Nite.

Did you miss out "Gelig" before this accidentally or deliberately?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Notwithstanding Thal's patently obvious intense dislike of foreigners of almost any kind entering UK for almost any reason, let us not forget the French take on the thread topic as exemplified in the time-honoured phrase liberté, égalité, maternité.

And just in case anyone here (whether or not they may be Thal) might wonder (assuming that they have little better to do), let me assure the forum that my brief absence earlier this evening was purely for the purpose of getting some work done and that no future pregnancies, potential or actual, played any part therein...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Notwithstanding Thal's patently obvious intense dislike of foreigners of almost any kind entering UK for almost any reason, let us not forget the French take on the thread topic as exemplified in the time-honoured phrase liberté, égalité, maternité.

I have no problem with those that want to work, obey our laws and make a contribution to our Society.

The rest can go home and the sooner the better.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

He is about to post, i can sense it

[thalbergmad]

AH, is almost ready, just the last few words of BS

[thalbergmad]

Must be a long one

[thalbergmad]

Sod it, i'm going to bed

[ahinton]

I have no problem with those that want to work

Assuming that, the best will in the world notwithstanding, they can actually get any.

obey our laws

Just like the Brits do / assuming that they can understand them / notwithstanding how silly some of them are (not least those to which you draw our attention with regard to state benefits, etc.)

and make a contribution to our Society.

Well, I'm an immigrant myself; do you suppose that I've done any such thing?

The rest can go home and the sooner the better.

Well, were "the rest" to include me (and I'm not saying that it does), you'd doubtless still be complaining that even "going home" isn't good enough for me, since from my "home" position I'd continue to bleed the English dry...

Might you therefore perhaps advocate in UK the kind of seccessive arrangement that has just befallen Serbia (in the splintering from it of Kosovo), with Scotland, Wales and the quaintly misnamed "Northern Ireland" breaking away from England so that there is no longer anything that could reasonably continue to be called an "United Kingdom"?

Best,

Alistair