Thalbermad v Ahinton -- Getting women pregnant, paternity issues

[pianochick93]

I am! 

[lostinidlewonder]

Gee this thread has made tangents all over the place.

A male making critique over pregnant women..... sounds stupid. Would be good to make a man pregnant and see if he has the same thoughts about it all.

[shortyshort]

Would be good to make a man pregnant and see if he has the same thoughts about it all.

Sorry, I don't like to think about trying to make a man pregnant, but there are people here that have tried.

[ahinton]

Sorry, I don't like to think about trying to make a man pregnant, but there are people here that have tried.

Pardon?? Would you care to explain that (with examples)?...

Best,

Alistair

[pianochick93]

Sod it, i'm going to bed

[ahinton]

Did you mean to add anything of your own here? If not, may I do so on your behalf - in the form of
(see Reply #51)

Best,

Alistair

[dnephi]

I have been told that inductive processes in the male still occur if you place the fertilized zygote in the correct place- wherever that may be.

[pianochick93]

Did you mean to add anything of your own here? If not, may I do so on your behalf - in the form of
(see Reply #51)

Best,

Alistair

No, I didn't mean to add anything of my own there, if I had've, I would've.

[ahinton]

I have been told that inductive processes in the male still occur if you place the fertilized zygote in the correct place- wherever that may be.

Maybe Thal would know about that; I don't.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No, I didn't mean to add anything of my own there, if I had've, I would've.

OK, fair enough - although that does leave me somewhat perplexed as to your purpose in quoting it without comment...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Maybe Thal would know about that; I don't.

A subject you don't know anything about!!!

Surely you must be able to rustle up a nice little 9,000 word post on the subject.

Thal

[ahinton]

A subject you don't know anything about!!!

Surely you must be able to rustle up a nice little 9,000 word post on the subject.

The only relevance of your figure "9,000" in the present context would seem to me to be that of a modest underestimate of a number of subjects that I don't know anything about.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Sorry, you aint having the last word.

Thal

[Bob]

I am!

Therefore, she thinks?



(Bob rings bell)  Round three!

[thalbergmad]

OK, so now at least you have made yourself clearer on this. I fear that you are wrong to suggest that there is so clear a dividing line between Scotand and England in such matters, for it is my experience that the availability and effectiveness of all three of these things (and others) vary quite widely across areas of both countries; for example, someone with multiple sclerosis would have had much better access to state-supported treatment had she lived next door to where she did several years ago - and I am talking about the borders between Somerset and Wiltshire, not England and Scotland.

You might be interested in a nice little article in today's Daily Mail.

It appears that prescription charges are going up, but only in England.

In Wales, it will remain free, while in Scotland it is going DOWN to £5 and will be free within 3 years.

Nice little bit of equality for you.

Thal

[ahinton]

You might be interested in a nice little article in today's Daily Mail.

It appears that prescription charges are going up, but only in England.

In Wales, it will remain free, while in Scotland it is going DOWN to £5 and will be free within 3 years.

Nice little bit of equality for you.

Thal

I'm not arguing with a word that you say (although I am decidedly not a Daily Mail reader!), but what exactly is the point that you're seeking to make here? I accept that what you present sounds like an unaccountable inequality of application, since the British National Health Service is supposed, at least in principle, to apply equally and evenly across all parts of each and every UK country but, as I pointed out previously, there are already many provable inequalities of its operation within as well as between each of those member countries so, however unacceptable what you write about may be, it's surely no different in realityu to those inequalities of which I wrote.

Furthermore - and whether or not you'll pardon my so saying - this seems to have little if anything to do with the thread topic...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

as I pointed out previously, there are already many provable inequalities of its operation within as well as between each of those member countries so, however unacceptable what you write about may be, it's surely no different in realityu to those inequalities of which I wrote.

Furthermore - and whether or not you'll pardon my so saying - this seems to have little if anything to do with the thread topic...

It is an important inequality, as it clearly illustrates that a policy differs because of a Country boundary, and not because of differences between various NHS trusts.

How many threads stick to the topic in this place?

Not many that you and i are involved in.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Virtuoso of the highest quality.

Thal

[i heart xenakis]

Hey!  Let's get back to the original topic plz.


Boning.

[ahinton]

It is an important inequality, as it clearly illustrates that a policy differs because of a Country boundary, and not because of differences between various NHS trusts.

How many threads stick to the topic in this place?

Not many that you and i are involved in.

Now, knowing how you deprecate people from Eastern Europe coming to UK and costing the English money (as you put it) and knowing how you'd like to send them back to where they came from, you might perhaps care to note an item in today's edition of The Daily Telegraph which reveals that some £28m p.a. is currently being paid by you and other British taxpayers to fund benefits for Eastern European children who still live in Eastern Europe, so maybe sending people back somewhere would not, after all, solve the problem that you perceive and the notion of "go east, young man" may now have more than a little going for it...

But - as "i heart xenakis" understandably suggests - why not get back to the topic? (unless you have no more to say on it)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The incompetence of our immigrant loving Government know no boundaries and indeed that story was not restricted just to the Telegraph. The solution to this idiocy is perhaps not to "send them back", but to stop them coming in.

Regrefully, until the idiots who run the Country persuade a generation of benefit dependant idlers to get back to work, it will be continually claimed that our Eastern European friends are doing us some kind of favour.

It is difficult to get back to the subject when you persist with unrelated posts.

Thal

PS. Did you see the "Enoch Powell" programme on BBC 2 tonight?
PSS. Don't answer. Try to get back on subject.

[ahinton]

The incompetence of our immigrant loving Government know no boundaries and indeed that story was not restricted just to the Telegraph. The solution to this idiocy is perhaps not to "send them back", but to stop them coming in.

Regrefully, until the idiots who run the Country persuade a generation of benefit dependant idlers to get back to work, it will be continually claimed that our Eastern European friends are doing us some kind of favour.

It is difficult to get back to the subject when you persist with unrelated posts.

Thal

PS. Did you see the "Enoch Powell" programme on BBC 2 tonight?
PSS. Don't answer. Try to get back on subject.

To take each of your points in turn...

It makes no difference whether you turn people back or stop them entering if the benefit is still paid - and do bear in mind that we are at least as much a part of an already vast but ever-expanding Europe as we are a nation in our own right - think Iceland to Waziristan and Svalbard to Libya and you'll hopefully get the future drift...

You are at least as habitually off-topic as I have been here.

I missed the Enoch Powell programme as I had to be out; however, for me, if "Powell", then "Jonathan" and, as someone pointed out not so long ago, the nearest we've ever gotten to "rivers of blood" over here as a consequence of continued immigration and emigration is rivers of tomato juice marketed and sold by the ever-expanding Tesco empire which will no doubt eventually hold sway as successfully in a Europe of 70+ nations as it does in UK today.

Now, go on, Thal - back on topic!

Best,

Alistair

[i heart xenakis]

I impregnated 86 men (that's just how potent I am) while you guys were squabbling about immigration.

[rc]

4. Choccies aren't good for you when you are pregnant. Any woman who wants her baby to be properly nourished should be eating fruit all day, not choccies.

I know an old guy, with a long life and loads of stories.  He was once concerned about his pregnant niece, she was anorexic.  "Wouldn't this harm the baby?" he asks a nurse one day, who laughs and says that babies are like parasites and will get their nourishment, whether or not the mother does.  The fetus will absorb from the mothers body is need be, she may waste away but the baby would be alright.

A story of a story.  I've never been a pregnant anorectic woman so I don't know for sure.

[thalbergmad]

It makes no difference whether you turn people back or stop them entering if the benefit is still paid.

Stop people entering and you don't have to pay child benefit to their children. Simple.

No rivers of blood eh. Toxteth, Brixton, Oldham.

You have a habit of wandering off topic and then reminding everyone else to get back on topic. I doubt if you have noticed this.

Thal

[pianochick93]

I know an old guy, with a long life and loads of stories.  He was once concerned about his pregnant niece, she was anorexic.  "Wouldn't this harm the baby?" he asks a nurse one day, who laughs and says that babies are like parasites and will get their nourishment, whether or not the mother does.  The fetus will absorb from the mothers body is need be, she may waste away but the baby would be alright.

A story of a story.  I've never been a pregnant anorectic woman so I don't know for sure.

Yes, that is true. So if you eat a lot of chocolate when you are pregnant, the baby will absorb the caffeine, sugar, and other things present in chocolate.
Too much caffeine, you get addicted. Too much sugar, you get diabetes.

[ahinton]

Stop people entering and you don't have to pay child benefit to their children. Simple.

But how could this be achieved legally? As I have observed previously, every EC national with a very few exceptions has the right of abode in every EC country and the EC has an ever-expanding number of countries. If you want to legislate to keep everyone (including the English) living strictly within their own national boundaries, you'd have first to disband the entire EC mechanism, the Schengen agreement and heaven knows what other existing legislation - which, since it would mean undoing some half-century of legislation and transnational agreements, would require the agreement of the national governments of every member state. Hardly a likely scenario, but one shudders to imagine its cost and who'd have to bear it...

No rivers of blood eh. Toxteth, Brixton, Oldham.

I'm not even going to dignify that remark with a response other than to say "if Powell, then Jonathan".

You have a habit of wandering off topic and then reminding everyone else to get back on topic. I doubt if you have noticed this.

Er - no; you wandered off the thread topic to raise the subject of immigration in the form of comments about people who should and should not have a right to live in - and be entitled to benefits offered by - UK and I responded to your observastions on those issues; the "wandering" is therefore yours and the mere following mine in this instance. I doubt that you have noticed this.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

But how could this be achieved legally?

If you stop the benefit, you will stop a lot of the people. The more rights that are signed away to Europe, the more difficult this will become.

Thal

[shortyshort]

It's a lost cause.

The invasion can not be stopped.

It is very sad.

[thalbergmad]

I'm not even going to dignify that remark with a response other than to say "if Powell, then Jonathan".

What the hell are you on about now? I have given examples of "rivers of blood".

I see no connection with amateur pianists.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I doubt that you have noticed this.

No i did not, and i have got better things to do than to go back through this thread to find out.

You seemingly have not.

Thal

[ahinton]

If you stop the benefit, you will stop a lot of the people. The more rights that are signed away to Europe, the more difficult this will become.

I'm not so sure; do remember that, in many ways, all EC citizens are part of the same country. You refer to certain rights as having been - or at risk of being - "signed away"; the former clearly permits the kinds of action, population movement and benefit circulation - potential and/or actual - between nations that we now know about, so unless someone succeeds in dismantling the entire EC mechanism, what I wrote about will continue and we will continue to be a part of an ever-expanding Europe that may one day include all of North Africa (some of which already has powerful historical connections with Spain, Italy and other nations on the northern side of the Mediterranean) and the Middle East.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It's a lost cause.

The invasion can not be stopped.

It is very sad.

What "invasion"? You cannot realistically describe any part of the comparatively free movement of people throughout the expanding EC as an "invasion".

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

What the hell are you on about now? I have given examples of "rivers of blood".

I am "on about" your statement. I do not perceive the movement to UK of people from other nations or that of UK citizens queueing up to get out of UK as "rivers" of anything, let lone "blood". Enoch Powell had a brilliant mind and was a penetrating thinker but he got this one so appallingly wrong that we're still talking about that gross error all these years later; that must say something for him.

I see no connection with amateur pianists.

I'll try to believe that you didn't say that and, if unsuccessful, I'll at least endeavour to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you meant no such unworthy and wholly unwarranted sentiment towards Jonathan Powell...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No i did not, and i have got better things to do than to go back through this thread to find out.

You seemingly have not.

I didn't have to - I simply quoted your own recently written phrase and ran with it appropriately in direct response to your remarks; if I should have "had better things to do" than that, you should perhaps ask yourself why you wrote as you did in the first place.

Interesting idea, though, this one of having "better things to do"; perhaps if you can manage somehow to divest yourself of the valium, beer or other substances which you seem to think that you need in order to address my quintet, you might appreciate the text by the Scottish atheist novelist and poet Norman Douglas that I set as part of the aria for soprano and double bass in its finale which incorporates the words

He scorns to make proselytes among his fellows:
they are not worth it.
He has better things to do.

as spat out on the recording with the perfect admixture of elegance and venom by that exquisite artist Sarah Leonard; the text incidentally continues:

While others nurse their griefs,
he nurses his joy.
He endeavours to find himself
at no matter what cost,
and to be true to that self when found -
a worthy and ample occupation for a lifetime.

and it occurs to me at times to think that it might not be an especially bad idea if you at least tried to do the same...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

To return to the thread topic(!), I would like, once again (at the risk of inciting boredom), to submit a plea for the curtailment of this thread on the basis that, at least as far as I am concerned, the notion of "Thalbergmad[sp/] v" me is as untenable as it is inappropriate to the extent that, whatever our differences may be or seem to be from time to time, we are not engaged in anything remotely resembling battle against one another and, since at least one of us has already declared less than no direct personal interest either in "getting women pregnant" or the "paternity issues" that one might reasonably expect to ensue thereform, the entire exercise has long since arguably been  pretty pointless.

Best (especially to Thal),

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I do not perceive the movement to UK of people from other nations or that of UK citizens queueing up to get out of UK as "rivers" of anything, let lone "blood". Enoch Powell had a brilliant mind and was a penetrating thinker but he got this one so appallingly wrong that we're still talking about that gross error all these years later; that must say something for him.

I was not referring to movement between countries, i gave you 3 examples of race riots.

Powell did have a brilliant mind, but one of the reasons that his speech is still rembered, is that people can look back at it and relate to its relevance today.

To say it is "appallingly" wrong, is almost as ignorant as saying it is 100% correct. I would claim neither, but unlike modern politicians, he was not afraid to talk about race issues and to speak about the fears of his constituents. Modern politicians only give a damn about themselves.

Under the present Government, the word racist is thrown about so often it has almost lost its meaning. This has stifled any sensible debate and have sent many people to the far right in order to have their voice heard.

The Labour Party has failed the the white working class Englishman, ignored his fears, taxed the crap out of him and will pay for it at the next election.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I didn't have to - I simply quoted your own recently written phrase and ran with it appropriately in direct response to your remarks; if I should have "had better things to do" than that, you should perhaps ask yourself why you wrote as you did in the first place.

Interesting idea, though, this one of having "better things to do"; perhaps if you can manage somehow to divest yourself of the valium, beer or other substances which you seem to think that you need in order to address my quintet, you might appreciate the text by the Scottish atheist novelist and poet Norman Douglas that I set as part of the aria for soprano and double bass in its finale which incorporates the words

He scorns to make proselytes among his fellows:
they are not worth it.
He has better things to do.

as spat out on the recording with the perfect admixture of elegance and venom by that exquisite artist Sarah Leonard; the text incidentally continues:

While others nurse their griefs,
he nurses his joy.
He endeavours to find himself
at no matter what cost,
and to be true to that self when found -
a worthy and ample occupation for a lifetime.

and it occurs to me at times to think that it might not be an especially bad idea if you at least tried to do the same...

Best,

Alistair

Another busy day at the Sorabji Archive.

Did the phone ring or something, you have not written as much as normal?

Thal

[ahinton]

I was not referring to movement between countries, i gave you 3 examples of race riots.

Well, your frequent recourse to remarks about people coming here and not coming here - and the benefits that they may or may not draw - might seem to give the lie to the former part of your sentence here, but the example of "race riots" that you did indeed give was not supported by any data from you, factual or even merely opinion-based, about why they took place and what their respective relevance might be in present-day UK.

Powell did have a brilliant mind, but one of the reasons that his speech is still rembered, is that people can look back at it and relate to its relevance today.

To say it is "appallingly" wrong, is almost as ignorant as saying it is 100% correct. I would claim neither, but unlike modern politicians, he was not afraid to talk about race issues and to speak about the fears of his constituents.

People look back at that speech from long ago largely because of its controversial nature at the time it was made - a controversiality that has by no means dissipated into oblivion today when considered in an historical context. I do not deny Powell's courage or sincerity in what he said, however misguided and tactless it was; where he fell short of reality and human decency, however, was in his allegations that people coming to UK might give rise to those very things that he claimed to fear, whereas such fear apparently did not apply to the outcome of those British people colonising other countries in past decades and centuries - in other words, those "rivers of blood" seemed to him to risk flowing in one direction only, which has always struck me as a view at best profoundly impractical and at worst execrably bigoted. Of course he cared about his constituents, as any politician of conscience should do - but some of his constituents were those very people that he berated in that dreadful speech, so how would it have felt to them to listen to it?

Modern politicians only give a damn about themselves.

Sadly all too true...

Under the present Government, the word racist is thrown about so often it has almost lost its meaning. This has stifled any sensible debate and have sent many people to the far right in order to have their voice heard.

...then more fool both the government and those who've been persuaded that far-right belligerence and bigotry is somehow superior to and more constructive than what the said government appears to offer (but doesn't)...

The Labour Party has failed the the white working class Englishman, ignored his fears, taxed the crap out of him and will pay for it at the next election.

Speaking as white non-class Scotsman living and working legitimately in England (or at least as legitimately as he could work anywhere as the unique bête noire that is a composer), I do not disagree that the present government has failed many people of the kind that you describe and I most certainly concur that it has "taxed the crap" out of anyone from whom it can possibly get any money whatsoever, but what may happen at the next general election is, I fear, rather more uncertain than you suggest, in that one of the other things that this government has achieved is to ensure that, however poor its own mandate might become, it has at the same time ensured that every other party will have at least as parlous a time of it and, in specific terms, the pensions raiding for which the present UK government is especially notorious is something that they must surely know will never be put right by any future elected party, as they've cannily contrived to ensure that sufficient damage has already been done during their own office to guarantee beyond all doubt that it is wholly beyond anyone else's ability to repair. You have to hand it to them for that, if nothing else; however unseemly a ploy it may be, the plan of "screw the nation badly enough and the opposition will never be capable of unscrewing it" is at least a piece of tactical shrewdness, even if it is distinctly unpalatable. Anyway, since I hope soon to be one of those may Brits that's leaving a ship that's being progressively and methodically sunk by its own government, I hope that it may not end up being my problem (said he, as selfishly as almost every other Brit that's leaving)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Another busy day at the Sorabji Archive.

Did the phone ring or something, you have not written as much as normal?

You might be surprised at just how very little time it takes me to write anything here; believe me, I don't spend much time at it and this post will have taken me well under a minute, so I really wouldn't worry about such issues if I were you!

Best,

Alistair

[rc]

Yes, that is true. So if you eat a lot of chocolate when you are pregnant, the baby will absorb the caffeine, sugar, and other things present in chocolate.
Too much caffeine, you get addicted. Too much sugar, you get diabetes.

Oh I see, well nobody wants a diabetic caffeine junky baby!

What if the mother eats a lot of chips and pizza, would she have a greasy baby?  Perhaps an easier, quicker birth?

[ahinton]

If this topic has anywhere left to go (which I seriously doubt), might there be any chance of actually returning to it? There seems to have been precious little discussion of impregnation or issues of paternity of late (though perhaps that is indeed because there's little or nothing more to be said on the subject here).

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

If this topic has anywhere left to go (which I seriously doubt), might there be any chance of actually returning to it? There seems to have been precious little discussion of impregnation or issues of paternity of late (though perhaps that is indeed because there's little or nothing more to be said on the subject here).

Best,

Alistair

The problem is easily solved. The original poster should rename the thread "Thalbergmad v Ahinton - Immigration".

[pianochick93]

Oh I see, well nobody wants a diabetic caffeine junky baby!

What if the mother eats a lot of chips and pizza, would she have a greasy baby?  Perhaps an easier, quicker birth?

nah, just a baby who hasn't had enough of the things he needs.

[ahinton]

The problem is easily solved. The original poster should rename the thread "Thalbergmad v Ahinton - Immigration".

I don't think that this would in fact solve the problem, since the thread seems to address one topic and then go on to discuss another; perhaps it would be better to split the thread...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

however, was in his allegations that people coming to UK might give rise to those very things that he claimed to fear, whereas such fear apparently did not apply to the outcome of those British people colonising other countries in past decades and centuries - in other words, those "rivers of blood" seemed to him to risk flowing in one direction only, which has always struck me as a view at best profoundly impractical and at worst execrably bigoted.

In my understanding (which might be wrong), Powell was speaking for the moment and the future, not the past.

Some of the appalling actions of our ancestors, does not lessen the fear that some people have today, nor lessen the impact of uncontrolled immigration.

Thal

[ahinton]

In my understanding (which might be wrong), Powell was speaking for the moment and the future, not the past.

I think that was probably the case, yes.

Some of the appalling actions of our ancestors, does not lessen the fear that some people have today, nor lessen the impact of uncontrolled immigration.

No, maybe it doesn't, yet when you write about immigration, controlled or otherwise, you hardly ever seem to balance what you write with remarks about emigration, which is far harder for any remotely "democratic" nation to control in any case and yet which is surely of equal importance in changing any nation's population balance.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

No, maybe it doesn't, yet when you write about immigration, controlled or otherwise, you hardly ever seem to balance what you write with remarks about emigration, which is far harder for any remotely "democratic" nation to control in any case and yet which is surely of equal importance in changing any nation's population balance.

Perhaps emigration is a direct consequence of immigration.

I do not know if any surveys have been carried out, but why are people leaving England? Are they simply searching for a better life, or are they so fed up with feeling like a 2nd rate citizen in their own Country, that they no longer wish to live here?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The problem is easily solved. The original poster should rename the thread "Thalbergmad v Ahinton - Immigration".

I have a couple of suggestions.

Thalbergmad v Ahinton - Everything

or

Ahinton should move the Sorabji Archives to Lewisham for some experience with our immigrant friends.

Thal

[shortyshort]

Ahinton should move the Sorabji Archives to Lewisham for some experience with our immigrant friends.

That would be funny.