Weak fourth and fifth fingers

[trampindenial]

I keep finding that my fourth and fifth fingers are extremely weak compared to my others which makes my playing sound really uneven, can anyone suggest any methods/exercises that can help remedie this?

[michel dvorsky]

Scales, arpeggios, and Bach.

[counterpoint]

My 4th and 5th fingers are weak too.

No problem 

[dnephi]

10-2, FF, Mend-Rach Midsummer Night's Dream, and La Campanella.

Glad to have been of no help.

[gyzzzmo]

Chopin etude op 10/2. If you're tired of that one you can do 25/6

[ramseytheii]

Use the muscle on the side of your hand to play better.

ALso, don't attempt to lift your fourth finger, but just play downwards.

Walter Ramsey

[nick]

I second what Walter said.

Nick

[allthumbs]

I second what Walter said.

Nick

Hey trampindenial

Try a couple of these Pischna exercises. They helped me with that problem immensely.

Excercise #7 can be repeated by reversing the fingering from 3-4-5 to 5-4-3 in both hands.

Cheers

allthumbs

[dan101]

With time, these two fingers will gain independence. Be  careful not too strain too much by overstretching. Also, play a lot of scales and have patience. Good luck.

[kiwi_bd]

Bach's Well-tempered Klavier is good for practicing fingers

[alhimia]

Be carefull with playing too much with the fingers only. Piano playing is mostly armwork. Many 'weak finger' problems can be solved by just a (different) movement of the arm/hands.

Besides that, everyone's fourth and fifth fingers are weak. No exercise that can make them stronger.

[gyzzzmo]

Be carefull with playing too much with the fingers only. Piano playing is mostly armwork. Many 'weak finger' problems can be solved by just a (different) movement of the arm/hands.

Besides that, everyone's fourth and fifth fingers are weak. No exercise that can make them stronger.

That they'll always be weaker than fingers 1/2/3, doesnt mean you cant train them
Ofcourse theres the anatomy problem, but the main problem of those fingers is that the brains doesnt really see them as seperate fingers, but thats something you can train with etudes like choped 10/2.

gyzzz

[slobone]

Hanon, of course. Nothing's better for 3, 4 & 5, especially in the LH.

[gyzzzmo]

Hanon, of course. Nothing's better for 3, 4 & 5, especially in the LH.

talking about controversial advice :p

[alhimia]

That they'll always be weaker than fingers 1/2/3, doesnt mean you cant train them
Ofcourse theres the atonomy problem, but the main problem of those fingers is that the brains doesnt really see them as seperate fingers, but thats something you can train with etudes like choped 10/2.

gyzzz

You said it very well: you should train your brain, not your fingers. That's why I said that it is impossible to make fingers 'stronger'. And regarding exercises, make them out of pieces and play the pieces you love, don't waste your time on Hanon etc. unless you love to play Hanon.

[viking]

Fingers will always be unreliable.  That is why one should use the weight of the arm to gain a more constant and reliable technique.  Now of course your fingers do move when you play the piano, but one should not focus on this.  This is why I believe Bach can sometimes be dangerous for technique.  Sure, it gives you finger independance, but if this results in the habit of playing with the fingers and not the arm you're playing will be unreliable and uneven.  In addition, playing with the entire arm, shoulder, bum, allows one more endurance than finger playing, which typically results in a stiff tense forearm.  Try to find a teacher who can explain this concept to you in person, as you benefit from immediate feedback as they physically put you in the right position.  Good luck.

Sam

[gyzzzmo]

Fingers will always be unreliable.  That is why one should use the weight of the arm to gain a more constant and reliable technique.  Now of course your fingers do move when you play the piano, but one should not focus on this.  This is why I believe Bach can sometimes be dangerous for technique.  Sure, it gives you finger independance, but if this results in the habit of playing with the fingers and not the arm you're playing will be unreliable and uneven.  In addition, playing with the entire arm, shoulder, bum, allows one more endurance than finger playing, which typically results in a stiff tense forearm.  Try to find a teacher who can explain this concept to you in person, as you benefit from immediate feedback as they physically put you in the right position.  Good luck.

Sam

Thanks for all this rubbish  mr Viking, but its totally useless. What he needs is finger independence, not semi-intellectual 'weight of arms' stuff. Using 'weight of arms' still requires the stiffening up of a certain finger, wich requires independant finger controll. And that is what you train with etudes.

[counterpoint]

Thanks for all this rubbish  mr Viking, but its totally useless.

Perhaps it's useless for you - because you never made the experience of playing with hand and arm. But it is very useful for people who are open to give it a try and then hear and feel the difference.

From my personal view, it is not so much the weight, but the control of the speed of the movement. The weight itself does not make the sound loud or soft.

[ramseytheii]

Fingers will always be unreliable.  That is why one should use the weight of the arm to gain a more constant and reliable technique.  Now of course your fingers do move when you play the piano, but one should not focus on this.  This is why I believe Bach can sometimes be dangerous for technique.  Sure, it gives you finger independance, but if this results in the habit of playing with the fingers and not the arm you're playing will be unreliable and uneven.  In addition, playing with the entire arm, shoulder, bum, allows one more endurance than finger playing, which typically results in a stiff tense forearm.  Try to find a teacher who can explain this concept to you in person, as you benefit from immediate feedback as they physically put you in the right position.  Good luck.

Sam

I don't think this is semi-intellectual, and for the most part it's true.  But playing Bach isn't harmful for the technique because it doesn't demand much of the arms.  Playing Bach will teach you the best way to balance different types of touch, types of touch that you will use whether or not you have to play a huge series of chords like in the Prokofiev 2nd concerto.

Even when playing music that appears to be for the fingers alone, you still use your whole body.

Walter Ramsey

[gyzzzmo]

Ofcourse you dont play stuff with your fingers only, but if you sit the right way, the whole body weight story is just alot of talking about something very simple, wich is very basic. Too many people just start rambling about that over and over, wich often has little to do with the topic, and what they just heard/read somewhere.

[ramseytheii]

Ofcourse you dont play stuff with your fingers only, but if you sit the right way, the whole body weight story is just alot of talking about something very simple, wich is very basic. Too many people just start rambling about that over and over, wich often has little to do with the topic, and what they just heard/read somewhere.

Maybe for you it comes more naturally for other people, but I have to disagree that it's a matter of sitting the right way.  There's no sitting posture, but only acture, that is, how the body moves in action.  In order to use the weight of your body to assist your playing, you have to be able to move your body around a center point, not just sit still.  You have to be able to apply your body weight whether playing in the highest registers, the lowest, or a both at the same time, or all over the place (Prokofiev 7th sonata).

And also I think it has a lot to do with the topic, because if people keep thinking they need to obsess about finger strength, they will not realize that using the body to play the piano relieves the fingers of the need to be strong.

Walter Ramsey

[viking]

gyzzzmo  (??)

If you manage to post a video of yourself playing the 2nd movement of prokofiev's 2nd concerto, or the finale of chopin's 2nd sonata using only fingers to play it, I'll buy you a house.  Your claims are completely ridiculous.  It is obvious that a finger cannot make the same sound that an entire arm can.  Therefore, one should use the entire arm, and even shoulder, bum, etc.. as much as possible to produce the most beautiful and reliable sound.  The thing is, every finger is different, capable of different strengths and weaknesses.  The thumb, obviously, is large and clumsy.  The pinky is skinny and short - generally weak.  However, you have one arm, and that doesn't change.  This is not being intellectual, this is being real.  No, Bach isn't bad for your technique, but it can be dangerous, as one can play Bach well without engaging the entire body, formulating bad habits for the future.  But obviously much can also be learned in terms of voicing, structure, style, phrasing, etc... 

Just my two cents



Sam

[gyzzzmo]

Well i gues im special then  , I actually can play the more difficult pieces without breaking my brains about how to put my shoulder and bum into a note... Also, i never had problems with my 'clumsy thumb' and 'skinny and short pinky' (i sound like some bragging kid  ).

Btw, with good body position i mean: bend abit over and relax your arms. Ofcourse you can move left and right, i look like a drunk when i play choped 25/12, but the bending over and relaxing stays the same, wich i gues results in that 'weight of the arms' story you guys keep talking about.

Anyway, the starter of this topic sounds rather like an average piano player who has rather control problems of his 4/5 finger than a strength problem. Playing melodies clearly with that 'skinny and short pinky' requires the ability to think with that pinky and thats what he should train (at least, to my opinion).


gyzzzmo

[gerry]

Well i gues im special then  , I actually can play the more difficult pieces without breaking my brains about how to put my shoulder and bum into a note...

Yea, I once had a vocal coach who advised me to sing from my perineum...as I get older I guess I'll have to begin wearing Depends at the piano bench

[slobone]

Scales, arpeggios, and Bach.

... except that scales and arpeggios don't use the fifth finger at all 

[slobone]

talking about controversial advice :p

Bring it on...

[Derek]

sometimes when I'm just sitting idly at a desk somewhere I'll drum my fingers on the desk, and as I go from my thumb to my pinky, I increase the pressure with which I use each finger, and then on the way back the lightest hit is my thumb.  Since the thumb is so accustomed to rather hefty pressure compared to the pinky, this can help teach you how to "balance" the pressures each of your fingers create.  Of course, not all music requires absolute evenness everywhere, but if you would like evenness to be one of your abilities, I've personally found that little practice technique to be useful.  I use it when playing the piano, too, of course. I just gradually increase pressure the closer I get to my pinky. It seems to have done a pretty good job for me.

I also find a good exercise to strengthen the 4th and 5th finger is to do trills with them. At first they will be difficult. But I've found over time if I do it really slow, and when I press down the 5th finger I completely relax the muscles which control the 4th finger, and then switch, completely relaxing the 5th finger... eventually I can speed this up and now my trills in 4/5 are almost as speedy as all other pairs of fingers.   It took a couple years to get to the level I'm at with it....it'll probably go faster for most people.    That'd my advice anyhow...hope it helps.

[allthumbs]

Besides that, everyone's fourth and fifth fingers are weak. No exercise that can make them stronger.

This is not so. If that were the case, how does one account for the fact that these two fingers are quite strong in all concert pianists and advanced players or are they born with this ability innate? 

Besides, I don't think that the term 'weak' necessarily needs to mean 'lacking in strength', but could also refer to 'lack of dexterity or control'.

To that end, exercises specifically designed and targeted, is more effective, IMHO, than performing an entire piece that may contain sparse instances where the troubled digits are worked sufficiently to effect real change in performance in a desired short period of time.

Mind you, exercises are not as musically satisfying as a Bach prelude.

However in the end, it's not what you play those matters ultimately, just as long as the fingers are worked in the desired manner.


Cheers, 

allthumbs

[alhimia]

This is not so. If that were the case, how does one account for the fact that these two fingers are quite strong in all concert pianists and advanced players or are they born with this ability innate? 

Besides, I don't think that the term 'weak' necessarily needs to mean 'lacking in strength', but could also refer to 'lack of dexterity or control'.

To that end, exercises specifically designed and targeted, is more effective, IMHO, than performing an entire piece that may contain sparse instances where the troubled digits are worked sufficiently to effect real change in performance in a desired short period of time.

Mind you, exercises are not as musically satisfying as a Bach prelude.

However in the end, it's not what you play those matters ultimately, just as long as the fingers are worked in the desired manner.


Cheers, 

allthumbs

Sorry, but what is your point? Where do you disagree with me? If you read my post, you'll notice that I am the one that says that it is about control, and coordination, rather than pure strength. It's more brain work than training your fingers in order to make them 'strong', the target of many exercises.
for example: I am struggling with a passage and after changing my position of my hand and fingers, I can play it perfectly well. Did I train my fingers? No, I changed my way of thinking. So, if anyone is telling here that he/she is having problems with his/her fourth and fifth fingers (provided that the person plays the piano for, let say, one or two years) it is obvious that the problem is not in the fingers, but in the head.

The fact that concert pianist give the illusion that there fourth and fifth fingers are not weak, is because they know how to use them and how to create that illusion, not because they did tons of exercises.

And I didn't say that you have to play whole pieces in order to solve your problem, I said that you make your own exercises out of the pieces you love.

I hope this is more or less clear.

[thalbergmad]

Did I train my fingers? No, I changed my way of thinking. So, if anyone is telling here that he/she is having problems with his/her fourth and fifth fingers (provided that the person plays the piano for, let say, one or two years) it is obvious that the problem is not in the fingers, but in the head.

The fact that concert pianist give the illusion that there fourth and fifth fingers are not weak, is because they know how to use them and how to create that illusion, not because they did tons of exercises.

My God man, i wish it were that simple.

If becoming a superb pianist was simply a matter of changing the way of thinking and all problems were in the head, every single member of this forum would would be posting Don Juan recordings.

Strange how they are not.

Thal

[counterpoint]

Strange how they are not.

Of course we are not 

But does that make the claim, that everything is controlled mentally, wrong?

[gyzzzmo]

My God man, i wish it were that simple.

If becoming a superb pianist was simply a matter of changing the way of thinking and all problems were in the head, every single member of this forum would would be posting Don Juan recordings.

Strange how they are not.

Thal

Well, playing piano happens for 98% in the head, pity though that it takes shitloads of practising being able to play your Don Juan recordings :p

[alhimia]

My God man, i wish it were that simple.

If becoming a superb pianist was simply a matter of changing the way of thinking and all problems were in the head, every single member of this forum would would be posting Don Juan recordings.

Strange how they are not.

Thal

You got it totally wrong. I never said that it was simple and that changing the way you think and feel is a simple process. It is actually very hard and difficult and sometimes even painful, at least much more difficult than sitting for hours at the piano simply moving fingers up and down without thinking at all.

[thalbergmad]

You got it totally wrong.

No, you got it totally wrong, you made it sound simple whereas it is evidently not.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

for example: I am struggling with a passage and after changing my position of my hand and fingers, I can play it perfectly well. Did I train my fingers? No, I changed my way of thinking.

Oh dear, if only.

Thal

[viking]

I'm going to have to disagree with you Thal.

[thalbergmad]

Good, that is what Forums are all about. I am glad you used the word "disagree" and not "totally wrong" though. That smacks of someone that thinks they know everything and are rigid in their opinions.

However, i am going back to my normal hovel of the anything but piano board. I have got involved in too many of these arguments before and they get nowhere. I will post no more here.

I just hope that the initiator of this thread experiments, uses what works for him and discards what does not.

Thal

[arrsr]

I am leary of giving advice because there is so much bad advice on this forum - advice that I think could really do more harm and cause more pain or weakness.  But I will try to speak from my own experience.

I also experienced weakness in my 4th and 5th fingers.  I feel strongly this cannot be solved by 'strengthening' those fingers.  There really isn't much to 'strengthen' in a finger.  If you pay attention to where your motion is coming from you might get some answers.  I have been studying the Taubman technique and, after three years of pain and weakness, I feel 100% better.  I wonder if you are near a reputable Taubman teacher?  Supporting my fingers with my hand has worked for me but, again, I can't go into detail because I wouldn't want to make your situation worse.  I would suggest looking into this technique, either taking a few lessons or at least doing some reading.  This technique has improved my playing so much and is great for anyone experience limitations in their playing.  Hope this helps.

[gerry]

RE: Taubman Technique - Know anyone with a used set available (new is $855 for the 10 volumes).

[jinfiesto]

I don't understand why anyone would want to get into Taubman technique. Sure, there are some good solutions to various pianistic problems, it is definitely not as comprehensive as it claims to be. For instance, Taubman's ideas on walking across the keys in Jeux D'eau work against the music completely. It may be convenient technically, but it fights the sound that that particular section needs.

[ramseytheii]

I don't understand why anyone would want to get into Taubman technique. Sure, there are some good solutions to various pianistic problems, it is definitely not as comprehensive as it claims to be. For instance, Taubman's ideas on walking across the keys in Jeux D'eau work against the music completely. It may be convenient technically, but it fights the sound that that particular section needs.

Interesting - could you tell us more?  What exactly does Taubman suggest for Jeux d'eau?  What effect is created?  Are you thinking of any passage in particular?

Many thanks,
Walter Ramsey

[jinfiesto]

Walter, basically what Dorothy suggests for Jeux deau is "walking" the hand across the keys to prevent the extension. Basically, she says sink the weight into one note, then move to the next and so on and so forth, don't try to maintain the extended hand position. Which is dandy, except for the weight part, the video is available as a free sample on the Taubman website I believe.

In my opinion, from a musical standpoint, sinking the weight of the arm into every freakin note, is not only a waste of effort, it produces an articulated sound, and by sinking weight, I don't mean transferring weight. In the video, she clearly "lifts" and puts it back down again. Which, in my opinion works against the musical goals of the piece. It's kind of by definition a "weightless" piece.

Now, I'm a firm advocate of weight playing, but from a musical standpoint, I don't think the kind of weight playing that she advocates here serves a musical goal. It's just technically convenient. However, imo, there are much better solutions, that serve both ends.

Here's how I do it, the beginning at least. So, since the goal (in my mind) is a watery, weightless sound, I think the piece should be done without much weight, I control the sound mostly gesturally in this piece. I start, with a slightly higher wrist position to keep myself from using too much weight, and I also tip my pelvis back, to keep myself farther away. This prevents too much arm or back weight from getting in the way... IMO. Now, from this position, I can still be relaxed. Also, you need a loose wrist. So I start with a slightly extended hand position, but I'm not extending it fully. Play the first note, and as I play to the last note in the group of notes ie the highest, I'm grouping gesturally here. The hand closes simultaneously to prevent tension.

IMO, this solves both the technical issues, and the musical quite well. I can post a video demonstrating both methods if this helps anyone.

[nick]

Walter, basically what Dorothy suggests for Jeux deau is "walking" the hand across the keys to prevent the extension. Basically, she says sink the weight into one note, then move to the next and so on and so forth, don't try to maintain the extended hand position. Which is dandy, except for the weight part, the video is available as a free sample on the Taubman website I believe.

In my opinion, from a musical standpoint, sinking the weight of the arm into every freakin note, is not only a waste of effort, it produces an articulated sound, and by sinking weight, I don't mean transferring weight. In the video, she clearly "lifts" and puts it back down again. Which, in my opinion works against the musical goals of the piece. It's kind of by definition a "weightless" piece.

Now, I'm a firm advocate of weight playing, but from a musical standpoint, I don't think the kind of weight playing that she advocates here serves a musical goal. It's just technically convenient. However, imo, there are much better solutions, that serve both ends.

Here's how I do it, the beginning at least. So, since the goal (in my mind) is a watery, weightless sound, I think the piece should be done without much weight, I control the sound mostly gesturally in this piece. I start, with a slightly higher wrist position to keep myself from using too much weight, and I also tip my pelvis back, to keep myself farther away. This prevents too much arm or back weight from getting in the way... IMO. Now, from this position, I can still be relaxed. Also, you need a loose wrist. So I start with a slightly extended hand position, but I'm not extending it fully. Play the first note, and as I play to the last note in the group of notes ie the highest, I'm grouping gesturally here. The hand closes simultaneously to prevent tension.

IMO, this solves both the technical issues, and the musical quite well. I can post a video demonstrating both methods if this helps anyone.

Could it be that you are not far off from Taubman in that you too are using weight, just not alot. Could it be that it is a degree of weight we are talking about?

Nick

[jinfiesto]

Yes, but I believe my concept of weight is more dynamic than Taubman's at least in this instance. I try to use all sorts of variations of weight in my playing as the music demands it.

     I actually hope my previous  posts haven't come across as snide. I respect Taubman very much, and I think that she has a great and in many ways very comprehensive system going for her. However, it's important to keep in mind that her system was developed because she had to deal with many students with injuries, and needed extreme solutions for extreme problems. So sometimes, to facilitate technical ease, and relaxation, things are compromised musically, but remember why. It's because of the injuries her students have suffered.

    Anyways, for those of us who don't have to rebuild our technique because of injuries, well, I actually had too, but that was a while ago. Anyways, for people without tension issues in their technique, there are better more musical solutions than all of Dorothy's. However, the Taubman techniques are very sound in principal, at least from a technical standpoint, and are very well worth knowing. At the very least, it's a good way to start, especially if you have tension issues.

[counterpoint]

If it was the weight that makes the sound - everything would sound the same. Since the weight of hand and arm doesn't change from one minute to the other.

It's the movement that makes the sound.

[jinfiesto]

Exactly, so through the combination of weight and gesture, you can achieve consistency and be able to also create a variety of sounds.

[thierry13]

If it was the weight that makes the sound - everything would sound the same. Since the weight of hand and arm doesn't change from one minute to the other.

It's the movement that makes the sound.

It's how much weight you USE, not how much weight you HAVE, that changes. Of course the weight you HAVE can't change, but the weight you USE is a different thing, and can be changed by many other factors than movement.

[nick]

It's how much weight you USE, not how much weight you HAVE, that changes. Of course the weight you HAVE can't change, but the weight you USE is a different thing, and can be changed by many other factors than movement.

Exactly what I would have said. Silly to think if weight was the only factor making sound, everything would sound the same. As Berhard would have said   Er, how about gradations of weight to achieve crescendo etc. Furthermore, I'm sure Taubman does not use only one amount of weight.

Nick

[counterpoint]

Do you need weight to play a loud note? No.

Do you need weight to play a soft note? No.

Weight has nothing to do with dynamics.

(You can use weight, if you like to, but there is no real need for it.)

[nick]

Do you need weight to play a loud note? No.

Do you need weight to play a soft note? No.

Weight has nothing to do with dynamics.

(You can use weight, if you like to, but there is no real need for it.)

sure you can use just fingers to produce the sound if you like. More difficult in my opinion and more likely to create tension than using gravity to produce sound. Difference of opinion here.

Nick