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Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO (Read 8105 times)

Offline sarrasani

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Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
« on: March 17, 2008, 01:09:19 AM »
Thank you for viewing/hearing.
Piano Bohemia, mics. Rode K2
All best,
Sandro


piano sheet music of Prelude - La fille aux cheveux de lin


Offline viking

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 01:28:49 AM »
Are you serious?


Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #2 on: March 17, 2008, 01:47:57 AM »

>Are you serious?

My fault to your eyes is probably to enjoy myself when I play.
I apologize if my body language is different from that you like, but
I've no problems with it and I think it help me to play in the way I
feel right. I do not know if am serious, surely you are not correct
(and/or intelligent) when write so silly and no-etiquette question.
Thank you for feedback (even if the music considerations are absent), now I'll try to stay at piano as ABM (Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli), then I'll record again hoping
you'll like this time.
All best,
Sandro


Offline viking

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 02:14:45 AM »
I can't believe you reported me for stating the obvious question, that being if you are serious or not.  My problem with your playing is the fact that excessive movement and facial gestures do nothing for the sound, which is all that counts when one makes a recording of their playing.  If anything, it breaks the line and switches the listener's attention from the music to the whatever else is happening.  Needless to say, I can tell you are capable of making music, and music is highly personal and opinionated.  I suppose if you enjoy yourself that's all that counts.
Best of luck,


Sam

Offline thierry13

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 02:26:23 AM »
The only thing that I can say is that your youtube nickname fits you well ... what a circus! I think your expressions definitely hinder your playing. Your playing is brutal, your tone is harsh, and you can't phrase it. Concentrate on the music instead of your "circus" and you might do some.

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 02:58:04 AM »
I'll tell Bunin and Mustonen that you think they must not move.
I hope they'll survive to this new, as I survive. But it so sad, thinking you like not.
Terrible, I beg your pardon and promise to stop with my insane and unuseful gestures.
Now I go to learn from your videos (so boring but this is not a problem....)
Can you suggest other boring videos from boring pianists, to begin my redemption?
Thank you viking-thierry-master-of-good-manners and unique thinking, and all best,
Sandro


Offline viking

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 03:02:07 AM »
Is this boring?



(sorry, I had to do it)


Best,

Sam

Offline viking

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 03:04:54 AM »
Or this?



He doesn't need to dance like a monkey to make his point...



Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 03:13:09 AM »

>Is this boring?

Nothing special, but I respect your work (and invite you to make the same with
others' work). Congraulations.




Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #9 on: March 17, 2008, 03:22:22 AM »
This is an hammer-pianist.  I bought his CD with Prokofiev Sonatas and it's
a pefect negative example respect Gilels, Richter, Sofronitzky, Mustonen (oops,
sorry, he move himself), Pogorelich, Sokolov and others.
Continue so: my ideas are good, other ideas....are they monkeys?
Are you an adept of canadian fascism?
All best,
Sandro

Offline thierry13

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 03:32:46 AM »
I'll tell Bunin and Mustonen that you think they must not move.
I hope they'll survive to this new, as I survive. But it so sad, thinking you like not.
Terrible, I beg your pardon and promise to stop with my insane and unuseful gestures.
Now I go to learn from your videos (so boring but this is not a problem....)
Can you suggest other boring videos from boring pianists, to begin my redemption?
Thank you viking-thierry-master-of-good-manners and unique thinking, and all best,
Sandro

The fact is that even lang lang does less gestures than you. Gould does less too. Where is the REAL PROBLEM, is not the fact that you actually do them ... but the fact is that it is the ONLY thing you do ... it hinders your playing. You stop doing music because of your stupid circus. If it wouldn't affect the music I would have no problem with it.

Offline thierry13

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 03:37:05 AM »
Nothing special

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... and you are basing yourself on WHAT to say that had nothing special ... your ones  :o Get some music to compare with music, will you ?

Offline quantum

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #12 on: March 17, 2008, 03:53:51 AM »
You could try working more with tone.  I see you doing a lot with your hands before you play a note but not after.  You should not forget about a note just because you have played it and held with pedal, there is much more you can do tonally after the initial attack. 

Also you could try more variation in how you approach your attacks. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline cygnusdei

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #13 on: March 17, 2008, 04:08:52 AM »
Zimerman does that 'conducting with the left hand thing' too. And Uchida seems to spend more effort in making constipated faces than actually playing. But she comes across as not doing it for show, just habit.

Offline gerry

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #14 on: March 17, 2008, 04:32:06 AM »
Thank you for viewing/hearing.
Piano Bohemia, mics. Rode K2
All best,
Sandro


You've got to be pretty thick-skinned to put a video up on this site ::)
Durch alle Töne tönet
Im bunten Erdentraum
Ein leiser Ton gezogen
Für den, der heimlich lauschet.

Offline rachfan

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #15 on: March 17, 2008, 04:35:32 AM »
My own opinion is that the role of the pianist is to act as medium between the composer and the audience.  If the pianist serves the composer well, then the listeners will automatically be well served.  This is a lofty and solemn responsibility.  This means that the pianist, to the extent possible, must be nearly transparent.  The audience should dwell only in the music, not on antics of the pianist.  Extreme mannerisms and anything but economy of motion create a visual disturbance to the listener/observer, become highly distracting, and generally interfere with artistic piano playing.  In short, the pianist becomes the prime focus, not the composer's music.  I feel very strongly about that.  I would encourage you, sarrasani, to please reconsider your approach, as I honestly believe it adds no real value to your performance.  I believe that your playing of this Debussy piece would be far better without the dual agenda.

So that I am not accused of being an armchair critic, I've included a link to my own recording of Debussy's "La fille aux chevaux de lin".  This is an audio recording, not a video, but I can assure that when I play, it is without any extraneous motions or facial contortions whatsoever.  I think that just in listening you can readily discern that my full attention is intently on the music per se--period.  The link within Audition Room:

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,26748.0.html 

Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline allthumbs

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #16 on: March 17, 2008, 05:46:00 AM »
sarrasani

I have to agree with viking and rachfan on this. When I first saw the video, I was completely distracted from the music.

When I listened to your piece again without watching the video itself, I found your playing quite enjoyable. Nice effort.

BTW - Check your music, measure 7 is C flat, not C natural as you play it (at least in my edition).


Cheers

allthumbs
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Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #17 on: March 17, 2008, 12:53:01 PM »
> Extreme mannerisms

What we like=spirit of the composer
What we notlike= mannerism
OK.....

> In short, the pianist becomes the prime focus, not the composer's music. 

This is obvious. We do not listen to Chopin, but the pianist.
The pianist and his creativity, who try to link himself to the same myths and expressive
world of Chopin.  Do you go to a concert for hearing Chopin? My best wishes, I go to
listen to Pogorelich or Brendel or someone else. A real man with his creativity; Chopin
is a myth,  the score a clue of sense....


>  I would encourage you, sarrasani, to please reconsider your approach,

The same I tell to you. Music is a living thing, not a museum.

>as I honestly believe it adds no real value to your performance. 

But I do not "add" nothing, this is the question. And if the gesture helps or not the playing is
NOT so simple to determine, as somebody too much sure here make.
At the same level, I can tell to Viking to have a more ambitious and expressive gesture, because
this will help him to be more convincing. To play is to comunicate, as an actor. Do you like actors
with ONE face and ONE body  position on the scene? Tastes....


Thank you for education (for somebody here an optional) and all best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #18 on: March 17, 2008, 01:01:47 PM »
>You stop doing music because of your stupid circus.


I know it's difficult for you, but the fact that my gesture afflict my playing that become "circus" is only a your personal, subjective evaluation.
As my personal evaluation is that your playing is rigid and poor in nuances and colours
and expression, and a different approach to keys will help you.
It's all, tastes and opinions....
Are you sure that a generic public will enjoy more your version of this Prelude than mine?
Ok, maybe it's so, maybe my version will be preferred (many listeners, musician or not,
write to me their enthusiasm for my playing. Sorry but it's true).
Best wishes for your career (as pro or more probably as amateur like me) and be less
rigid in thinking and playing.
All best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #19 on: March 17, 2008, 01:15:28 PM »
>
You could try working more with tone.  I see you doing a lot with your hands before you play a note but not after.  You should not forget about a note just because you have played it and held with pedal, there is much more you can do tonally after the initial attack. 
Also you could try more variation in how you approach your attacks. 

Uh, the light of intelligence in a interesting post , after injuries.  What a pleasure.
You have reason about my release of keys hoding pedal. But 1) this is a particular
colour I like to obtain  2) the so interesting fact of modulate timbre AFTER depressing completely
the key I think is all to demonstrate. Probably the timbre is all in the velocity and acceleration
of key depressing, in combination with pedalling.
I think so and play preparing the depressing of the key with (useful or unuseful, I don't care) the maximun attention to expressive intents of each note. You win or loss the war preparing and depressing the key.
The problem is here, in your words "much more you can do tonally after the initial attack" .
Not me (my opinion is poor thing) but many think this is not possible.
Which do you think can be the phisic reality of this sound control after touching?
Thank you and all best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #20 on: March 17, 2008, 01:19:40 PM »
>
Zimerman does that 'conducting with the left hand thing' too. And Uchida seems to spend more effort in making constipated faces than actually playing. But she comes across as not doing it for show, just habit

Ok, Uchida (and Mustonen, and hundreds others in the past)  for habit, me for show.
Thank you, now I've understood.
Best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #21 on: March 17, 2008, 01:23:43 PM »
You've got to be pretty thick-skinned to put a video up on this site ::)

Really, I could not imagine so much arrogance and ignorance (they travel together).
But so is the life (when one is a lucky man as I am):  a caresse and a slap, all
regular both the enthusiasm of somebody and the insultant word of somebody else......
When I think that an immense pianist as Pogorelich (and not a decent amateur as me) was insulted by certain critics in USA and not only. Or when we think to the story
of Nyragiazi.....

All best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #22 on: March 17, 2008, 01:26:31 PM »
Thank you allthumbs,
this is different from insulting.
Thank you also fro the mistake indication.
All best,
Sandro

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #23 on: March 17, 2008, 01:45:31 PM »
I know it's difficult for you, but the fact that my gesture afflict my playing that become "circus" is only a your personal, subjective evaluation.

Dear Sandro,

I'm quite sure, that you were not aware of what you did, when you posted your videos in this LIONS CAVE called pianostreet  :D

People will haunt you if you use pedal (even when playing Debussy  ;D ), when you don't play exactly in time (metronome, holy be thy name), if you take personal liberties and of course any movements that are not needed for pressing the keys on the piano are strictly forbidden  :D

I often have the feeling, many people here use the word "music" in a sense of "I don't know the meaning of the word, but it will make me look sophisticated, if I pretend to know what it is. Something that is unbelievable fast and artistic and produces an audible noise."
 
Perhaps I'm in the wrong forum too...  ::) :D

I like the way you play. It shows that you understand: music is not only a series of notes of different frequencies  ;)

Keep smiling

counterpoint
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline thierry13

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #24 on: March 17, 2008, 03:03:16 PM »
Then if it is not your mannerism that affects your music, go practice and find out what it was. You are far from being a decent amateur. Your talk about your personnality and your tastes disgust me. You seem to not be knowing what music is. If you want to show your personality, COMPOSE and do not destroy the work of real musicians (Chopin, Debussy, Beethoven, etc.). Music is NOT acting. SOME mannerism can be accepted if it does NOT affect the music. Why do I criticise yours ? Because that's all you have. Or at least that's the impression you leave in your videos. If music was only expression of self in any free way, the organisation of the notes would not be important, and everybody would play and sound like Xenakis' Herma in a butchered way. Yeah you play the notes ... some are played correctly ... but too much are butchered. At least give the effort of learning the music correctly before destroying it. Just please. BTW if your playing would be any decent I would not criticize your mannerism that much.

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #25 on: March 17, 2008, 03:18:56 PM »
> go practice and find out what it was. You are far from being a decent amateur.

And 1) I do not need piano lessons from you.  2) This is only your opinion. Here and otherwhere
somebody else think differently. Destroying words for you, but be resigned: I received many
posts and e-mail of congratulations. What are you tellig me? Ah, ok, these are all ignorant and
you only know what music is.  Take it easy and consider also different tastes, ideas and piano playing styles.  Take example from me: I find not interesting your (Viking) playing style, but I've
not the necessity to insult you. Best wishes for your career, and play and think in more plastic and rich way.
All best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #26 on: March 17, 2008, 03:23:02 PM »
>I'm quite sure, that you were not aware of what you did, when you posted your videos in this LIONS CAVE called pianostreet  :D

Eheh, it's so. But it's ok, caresses and slaps.... and many arrogant persons will be planed by life
and his disappointments. They are so sure of their truth....

>People will haunt you if you use pedal (even when playing Debussy  ;D ),

If they hear to Scriabin-as-pianists recordings, or Nyregiazi ones, or Pletnev,  they'll faint....
But they are so arrogant, and arrogance is also ignorance. Then, they ignore these names...


> when you don't play exactly in time (metronome, holy be thy name), if you take personal liberties and of course any movements that are not needed for pressing the keys on the piano are strictly forbidden  :D

But the problem is that is valid also at higher level than the modest amateur Sandro Bisotti-Sarrasani.
In competitions who plays searching passion and colourfull richness more than mechanical precision is cut-off, in concert hall you can see and hear typists with no sense of music as art.
But now is better than 15-20 years ago. Some free and interesting artists as Pogorelich, Pletnev,
Mustonen, Sokolov and other have their spaces, and the boring and academic playing style is not more so leading.....let's hope.



>I like the way you play. It shows that you understand: music is not only a series of notes of different frequencies  ;)

very kind words, thank you.  I play for fun and for personal love of art, with a technique not bad-not amazing and my ideas and tastes. Really, mine will be more an example of freedom and respect of certain values of expressive phrasing and mellow sound (neglegted in industry-style mainstream pianism) than an exibithion of my (modest) personal artistic and technical value.
I hope do demonstrate only a good cantabile (singing) technique.

>Keep smiling

No problem, but thank you and happy (also if with elmet) if you like something of my works,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #27 on: March 17, 2008, 03:30:33 PM »


http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,26748.0.html 

Correct and pleasurable version. Very precise, transparent and coherent.
But I continue to prefer my version:
more mellow. warm general tone , and a most free and airy phrasing.
 "sans rigoeur".... you play well, but IMHO without the freedom in tempo and micro-dynamics and the dreaming tone here requested.
Happy to have known your version and thank you,
Sandro

Offline Essyne

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #28 on: March 17, 2008, 04:17:44 PM »
Sandro, it seems like you are posting here not for critique but sheer argument value. Many people are saying that you are distracting, and, unfortunately, you are. Playing an instrument/singing/acting, etc. is not about YOU, it is about the music. You are a mere vessel. Make your music more about what Debussy was trying to convey rather than "Spotlight: SANDRO!." The music will speak for itself.  If you want it to be about YOU, then do what thierry said and compose. You are not being insulted; it is merely constructive criticism (something that all musicians must learn to accept).
"A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song."
                                                 - Chinese Proverb -

Offline viking

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #29 on: March 17, 2008, 04:50:03 PM »
I wonder why one posts here unless they are willing to take constructive criticism and feedback.  You also speak of people who write to you saying they enjoy your music.  However, you post your videos here in a forum full of amateur/professional pianists and dismiss all criticism as ignorant?  You might consider the fact that people here are likely more educated in the realm of music than your average listener who writes you emails...




Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #30 on: March 17, 2008, 05:08:51 PM »
> You are a mere vessel.

Imbossible to disappear. Also who play "without personality" has a personality.
I (and you) do not go to hear Chopin, but mister X who plays Chopin.
But this is and old question, and there are different opinion and trhinking school about
this.

All best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #31 on: March 17, 2008, 05:19:12 PM »
> However, you post your videos here in a forum full of amateur/professional pianists and dismiss all criticism as ignorant? 

Criticism is a thing, "are you serious?" is another thing. It is an arrogant behaviour, proper of
ignorant persons. It's so clear...

>You might consider the fact that people here are likely more educated ....

Education and you lives in different worlds. But your stupidity is also funny to me, a so
perfect example of arrogance.......please continue, don't return to play (in the boring way all
we can see) your piano.
Thank you for your unuseful muscle exibithion, if you will to work in my circus is ok....
with lions, or at the piano...
All best,
Sandro



Offline Essyne

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #32 on: March 17, 2008, 05:25:48 PM »
 I can see that it is not the music that you think of; rather, it is yourself, and that completely differs from my personal philosophy. It would do you some good to be open-minded, though.

I can relate to you, Sandro. I am beginning to get very serious w/ my voice, and need to correct all of the little "habits" that I have developed over the years. At first, I felt like I was compromising my artistry and my potential, but then, I became more open, and realized that I could still BE an artist, but MY artistry must convey the artistry of the COMPOSER. You do not have to "disappear" - that is a common misconception (as I said, I made that misconception once as well) - You simply have to understand your PURPOSE.

As for whether or not I "go to hear Chopin" or "mister X" - I'm sorry, but I couldn't get past 30 seconds of your recording. I go to a concert/recital to hear the music first and foremost - the (wo)man playing is irrelevant, as long as he is playing THE MUSIC and not HIMSELF.

You act as if you are the "say all, end all" of piano playing - and I can see that because you are so GOOD that I you don't need my opinion. But always remember, Mr. Sandro, there is a big blue line between "good-ness" and GREATNESS, and there is even a BIGGER line between GREATNESS and just musical. You can be "good" and "great" for yourself, but the true musician is just musical.

EDIT: When I DO go to hear "mister x" , it's not because the puts on a show or a "circus," but because he conveys a feeling of intimacy - he is passionate and THAT is the source of his movement. It's like when dancing the waltz - there is extreme beauty in simple, fluid movement. If you make everything planned and overdramatic, there is no MAGIC on the dance floor. Similarly, humor me and just try to make your performance purely organic and see what happens. You don't have to record it or post it on YouTube . . . just play IN YOUR BODY and be connected to your RAW emotions, not the superficial ones.
"A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song."
                                                 - Chinese Proverb -

Offline Essyne

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 05:28:39 PM »
Furthermore (just because this is bothering me), viking only voiced what everyone else on this forum was thinking - and I find it very hypocritical that you would report him for being honest, and then would go around mud-slinging and expect not to get reported yourself  :o .

... there, I'm finished.
"A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song."
                                                 - Chinese Proverb -

Offline quantum

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 06:49:14 PM »
Uh, the light of intelligence in a interesting post , after injuries.  What a pleasure.
You have reason about my release of keys hoding pedal. But 1) this is a particular
colour I like to obtain  2) the so interesting fact of modulate timbre AFTER depressing completely
the key I think is all to demonstrate. Probably the timbre is all in the velocity and acceleration
of key depressing, in combination with pedalling.
I think so and play preparing the depressing of the key with (useful or unuseful, I don't care) the maximun attention to expressive intents of each note. You win or loss the war preparing and depressing the key.
The problem is here, in your words "much more you can do tonally after the initial attack" .
Not me (my opinion is poor thing) but many think this is not possible.
Which do you think can be the phisic reality of this sound control after touching?
Thank you and all best,
Sandro

Just because a golf player has struck the ball does that mean he should stop his swing?

Although the piano does not allow things such as crescendos or vibrato throughout the body and decay of a note does not mean we are not powerless to shape such items.



You say you take a free approach to playing music.  Yet I notice you are not so free to accept the critiques of people here.   You highly underestimate the knowledgeable people that are on Pianostreet.  My suggestion to you is to take in such knowledge instead of trying to argue your way through. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #35 on: March 17, 2008, 07:24:05 PM »
>Furthermore (just because this is bothering me), viking only voiced what everyone else

Counterpoint here, and many others on youtube and in private mail write to like
(or to like much) my videos. Are they all stupid ?
Thank you,
Sandro

Offline Essyne

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #36 on: March 17, 2008, 07:35:06 PM »
I apologize for my hasty generalizations, but do not put words into my mouth. I never said anyone was stupid, and if they prefer your method of playing, then we will agree to disagree. This is a forum and people are entitled to their opinions as well. You can take/dismiss as you please, but I'd recommend that you take some advice that you DONT like into consideration - it can't hurt you. If you only pay attention to what you LIKE, you'll just keep playing at the level that you are on now and will not progress.

I'm finished here until there is anything of consequence said; I will not engage in an immature "he said/she said" battle (I get enough of that in high school, thank you very much)
"A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song."
                                                 - Chinese Proverb -

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #37 on: March 17, 2008, 07:46:49 PM »
>Although the piano does not allow things such as crescendos or vibrato throughout the body and decay of a note does not mean we are not powerless to shape such items.

Uh, in which mysterious way?
You speak of the swing playing golf. I play decently tennis, and there is the same.
Some schools thinks that the swing must be completed up the shoulders, other school
that swing has not importance after heating the ball.  Curious, isn't it?
Complexity and flexible thinking, this is the rule.

>  You highly underestimate the knowledgeable people that are on Pianostreet. 

The thing I have oversetimated is the education and the intelligence of members as
viking(alias thierry etc.). I'll seek for Pletnev or Pogorelich here for taking lessons.
From others I saw here, no thanks  (or: the lesson I can give and receive)
All best,
Sandro

Offline viking

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #38 on: March 17, 2008, 08:09:30 PM »
And now you're attacking my musical education?  Just because I think differently than you, doesn't mean I'm uneducated.  Notice that not one person has stood up for you.  For your information, I probably go to and play in more concerts/competitions in one year than you have in your entire life, but that's not the point.  Do you take lessons?  Do you go to music school?  You know, I'm really too tired to continue this argument.  Do whatever you want - I could care less.


Sam

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #39 on: March 17, 2008, 08:26:37 PM »
Nice that you prefer your own version, but when you aren't watching, just listening, you hear bad legato, ugly phrasing, a lack of sense of rhythm, unwritten accents that seriously harm the flow of the piece, no thinking of where the work should go. And when watching, I get nauseous on top of all the previously stated issues I have with your playing.

I don't have problems with anyone playing for pleasure and own enjoyment, I neither have problem with those people posting their recordings on the internet, but I DO have a problem with those people when they don't accept any kind of criticism and think they play like Horowitz. Like you, but also this:
.
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #40 on: March 17, 2008, 08:40:33 PM »
Brendel does to me what Schumann does to Thalbergmad.

I think, this quote of Kassaa (from an other thread) will make clear, what's the problem.

If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #41 on: March 17, 2008, 09:21:43 PM »
I think, this quote of Kassaa (from an other thread) will make clear, what's the problem.
I think not. I simply do not like Brendel, can't help it. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate his musicianship. And, I love Gould, and I love watching Gould too, and I in general don't have any problems with excessive body movements, if they don't DISTURB the listening experience, what seems to be the case here.

So what's the problem?

Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline rachfan

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #42 on: March 17, 2008, 10:02:42 PM »
Hi sarrasani,

Music is a living thing, so we need not be concerned about being called museum curators.  A musical score is the blueprint.  What the composer has written, must be observed, respected and played as intended, of course.  With the passage of time, some things must be questioned.  For example, pedaling in Chopin sometimes needs modification, as the pianos in his time were different from our modern day pianos. 

In order to capture the composer's intent from the score, there is the artist's interpretation.  An interpretation, however, has to comport with the score, be consistent with the musical period, employ generally prevailing performance practices, and aim for the pursuit of excellence in terms of musical aesthetics--i.e., musicality and musicianship.  Any and all interpretations must always be defensible and justifiable on grounds of musicology, music theory, prevailing practices, and artistry.  "Feeling" the music a certain way unto itself is not a reasonable justification.  I have yet to encounter a good justification for mannerisms as enhancing performance. 

When I said earlier that the artist is the "medium between the composer and audience", that is not to say that the the artist abandons his personality.  To a reasonable degree, personality will help differentiate one artist's rendition from another person's rendition.  If it were not true, then everyone's playing would be the same flavor of vanilla in all circumstances, which is never actually the case--except at competitions were personality and risk taking are discouraged. 

The fact remains, however, that personality is NOT a license for exhibiting extreme mannerisms at the  piano which, in effect, completely deflect attention away from the music, as do yours.  Playing the piano is not theater, circus clowning, sign language,  conducting, or pantomime.  Rather, it is the art of performance--a lofty and solemn responsibility for the serious pianist, as I said before.   

In his day, Liberace had more than his share of mannerisms.  He was in the business of light entertainment.  Yet I'm sure he also knew better than anyone else that he was a showman, not a performing artist. 

sarrasani, it's obvious that you'll continue with your mannerisms regardless of the near unanimous opinions here to the contrary.  I can tell you that those expressing opinions are all well meaning and trying only to be helpful.  You should also know that there are some fine and accomplished musicians participating in this forum.  I've always appreciated having the benefit of their thinking. 

But as they say, "It's a free country."  If you're  totally committed and unyielding in the matter of your very unconventional and idiosyncratic ways of playing the piano, then  good luck with it!   
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #43 on: March 17, 2008, 10:40:50 PM »
>
But as they say, "It's a free country."  If you're  totally committed and unyielding in the matter of your very unconventional and idiosyncratic ways of playing the piano, then  good luck with it!   

Each one for himself. Do you like the grey  "mainstream" style? Free to love it, free to
criticize other options as mine, but it would be correct you accept also criticism to your playing....
without soul, cold and a bit boring.
All best,
Sandro

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #44 on: March 17, 2008, 10:50:30 PM »
>
And now you're attacking my musical education? 

Yes sir. Only you can attack others here (see YOUR insulting post that begin this flame, and stop to  send posts with different names)? So we are two.....

>Just because I think differently than you, doesn't mean I'm uneducated. 

Not because you think differently, but because you offended me asking if I was seriouly playing.
You are not my brother or my friend (for God's mercy), and then I descended on your low level.

>  For your information, I probably go to and play in m>ore concerts/competitions in one year

The problem is not "how much" but "how", and also "why".

Best wishes to all your nicknames and thank you for improve my poor "fighting" english...
Sandro

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #45 on: March 18, 2008, 06:32:37 AM »
The sad fact is that Viking has a music education 1000x better than yours.
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #46 on: March 18, 2008, 08:35:53 AM »
Furthermore (just because this is bothering me), viking only voiced what everyone else on this forum was thinking - and I find it very hypocritical that you would report him for being honest, and then would go around mud-slinging and expect not to get reported yourself  :o .

... there, I'm finished.


essyne, you created a new thread, where you talk about your lack of passion.

Look at Mr.Sarrasani, then you know what passion is!
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline thierry13

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #47 on: March 18, 2008, 12:18:50 PM »
>
And now you're attacking my musical education? 

Yes sir. Only you can attack others here (see YOUR insulting post that begin this flame, and stop to  send posts with different names)? So we are two.....

>Just because I think differently than you, doesn't mean I'm uneducated. 

Not because you think differently, but because you offended me asking if I was seriouly playing.
You are not my brother or my friend (for God's mercy), and then I descended on your low level.

>  For your information, I probably go to and play in m>ore concerts/competitions in one year

The problem is not "how much" but "how", and also "why".

Best wishes to all your nicknames and thank you for improve my poor "fighting" english...
Sandro

You're funny. Were you implying that I am Viking? Look at my post number. I am not a different name for Viking haha. The fact is that opinion is good TO A CERTAIN EXTENT but there IS good or bad in music. Music is a science, a language, and therefore is established and is not THAT personnal (if you do not invent a new language or COMPOSE like I suggested you do). It's like if I told you : "you is verry bhad mistther sarrasani becauz yur muzik suonds lyk my anglysh". Then I would tell you wow, that's bad english, then you would tell me no it's not bad I like it better this way! It's my opinion leave me alone there is no good and bad! Your point is as stupid as that. You want the TRUTH and a FACT? You COMPLETLY DESTROYED debussy's piece. It is as true as I completly destroyed english in the exemple sentence I gave you. Everybody can, and MUST, speak in his own words(the personnality factor), but must respect grammar and spelling etc. ... you did NOT respect the grammar and spelling of the music. That is a fact as much as it is a fact my sentenced was in a destroyed english. Man, you do not accept even constructive criticism! You allways stand by your interpretation as if it was perfect and as if nobody could do it better than you. On the opposite, you're quite the worse I ever heard. Subjectivity and personality has it's limit in music and you got WAY too much further than the limit. I could tell you that it is similar to music but it is not really, as much as my example sentence was not really english.

Offline rob47

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #48 on: March 19, 2008, 08:14:03 PM »
You're funny. Were you implying that I am Viking? Look at my post number. I am not a different name for Viking haha. The fact is that opinion is good TO A CERTAIN EXTENT but there IS good or bad in music. Music is a science, a language, and therefore is established and is not THAT personnal (if you do not invent a new language or COMPOSE like I suggested you do). It's like if I told you : "you is verry bhad mistther sarrasani becauz yur muzik suonds lyk my anglysh". Then I would tell you wow, that's bad english, then you would tell me no it's not bad I like it better this way! It's my opinion leave me alone there is no good and bad! Your point is as stupid as that. You want the TRUTH and a FACT? You COMPLETLY DESTROYED debussy's piece. It is as true as I completly destroyed english in the exemple sentence I gave you. Everybody can, and MUST, speak in his own words(the personnality factor), but must respect grammar and spelling etc. ... you did NOT respect the grammar and spelling of the music. That is a fact as much as it is a fact my sentenced was in a destroyed english. Man, you do not accept even constructive criticism! You allways stand by your interpretation as if it was perfect and as if nobody could do it better than you. On the opposite, you're quite the worse I ever heard. Subjectivity and personality has it's limit in music and you got WAY too much further than the limit. I could tell you that it is similar to music but it is not really, as much as my example sentence was not really english.

I could tell you that it is similar to music but it is not really, as much as my example sentence ENTIRE POST was not really english.

just joking. I know English is not your first language...which is why your whole comparison is kind of.... :-X

Also thierry, i think you are saying way too many brutal and rude things to someone much older than you, which is despicable.  You're not an experienced musician, and whatever your professors tell you is not the end all answer to piano performance. You would cease to be a music student were you to stop questioning what others present to you as absolute truths.  However, judging by a million of your other posts stating 'facts', it seems you have already set off on this path.  And by 'music student' I don't mean student enrolled in a music program or conservatory.

To the original poster, I would agree with what most people have said here.  I mean once your fingers reach the bottom of any key,  no other movements will affect or change the sounds produced right?
"Phenomenon 1 is me"
-Alexis Weissenberg

Offline thierry13

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Re: Debussy "La fille aux chevaux de lin" VIDEO
«Reply #49 on: March 19, 2008, 11:29:29 PM »
just joking. I know English is not your first language...which is why your whole comparison is kind of.... :-X

Also thierry, i think you are saying way too many brutal and rude things to someone much older than you, which is despicable.  You're not an experienced musician, and whatever your professors tell you is not the end all answer to piano performance. You would cease to be a music student were you to stop questioning what others present to you as absolute truths.  However, judging by a million of your other posts stating 'facts', it seems you have already set off on this path.  And by 'music student' I don't mean student enrolled in a music program or conservatory.

To the original poster, I would agree with what most people have said here.  I mean once your fingers reach the bottom of any key,  no other movements will affect or change the sounds produced right?

The fact is that I don't praise my english as good or good because it's personnal. Did you read all sarrasani's posts? He sure doesn't deserve any kind of respect, and does not act like someone older than me. It's funny because, what you think is my weakness in music, is actually my strength. And it's funny too that I allways think about that with the exact words you told it : allways in questionning and nothing has absolute truth. I allways question what my teacher tells me, I allways question even what I hear in masterclass by people who studied more than my teacher, I simply question everything. My playing is the result of my personnal interpretation after testing the things the teachers told me, that and watching great pianists, analyzing the things I like and the things I like less/why do I like it less, and testing out their technical gestures to see if anything works for me. All that I say in my posts is not the repeat of the things I was told. As for the experience, I can safely say I have enough to write everything I wrote here and much more than sarrasani, wich is not really hard to beat.