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Topic: What are the legal circumstances concering (©) when an author is dead?  (Read 1516 times)

Offline Petter

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Lets say I found a book that´s been long out of print (1960) by an author who is deceased. The publisher still exists. Will I get sued back to the middle ages or worse if I start file sharing? Or would no one pursue a law suit on those basis?
 What are the legal conditions when an author or composer is dead?


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Offline Kassaa

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Their children and grand-children probably started a foundation for 'officially' keeping the author's name high but actually it's for getting money for nothing.Publishers are really anal about this stuff too though, but you won't get sued for one book, and you live in Sweden so there should be no problem at all.

Offline indutrial

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Lets say I found a book that´s been long out of print (1960) by an author who is deceased. The publisher still exists. Will I get sued back to the middle ages or worse if I start file sharing? Or would no one pursue a law suit on those basis?
 What are the legal conditions when an author or composer is dead?


The legal conditions shouldn't be an issue if you use private (PM) sharing instead of doing it in everyone's face. Public sharing often gets way out of control and there's actually some leeching scumbags who download people's scans and try to sell the .pdf files on EBay (exactly what the publishers are directly offended by) Also, make sure the forum you're in doesn't have stringent policies regarding copyrighted work. I generally agree that publishers can eat s**t when it comes to things like Bartok and other composers long deceased who they are desperating trying to glean money out of to the ends of the earth (the demise of IMSLP was related to this shameful behavior on UE Vienna's part). While I've scanned a few things in the past, I've generally stuck to things printed very long ago which are not readily available through the publishers and in significant danger of obscurity or deterioration. For example, some of Tansman's early scores from the 1920s-30s are not all in the best shape and not likely to be reprinted. The fact that he lived until 1986 is not going to make me hesitate to create a .pdf of something like that which libraries will probably never be prompted to order again and that would take months for the stupid printing house to dig up. As I've said in other threads, there are composers who composed hundreds of works that are virtually impossible to find and barely stocked in libraries let alone sites like www.sheetmusicplus.com, who are supposed to be the be-all and end-all of sheet music acquisition. There are others of the scummiest variety who feel that it's prudent to charge prices in the stratosphere (e.g. my anecdote about the yellowed Harsanyi score I ordered) for scores that were printed decades ago and left to rot in some stockroom. Worse yet are ones who charge retardedly high prices for frigging xeroxes of their composers' manuscripts. I'm thinking directly of the jerks at EWH who have pretty much completely crippled areas of my research with their berserk pricing. Should a 39-page score of a work for two pianos and percussion (one score, mind you, no parts) cost 60 pounds? C'mon! As far as I'm concerned, some publishers' practices make it seem that are worthy of being subverted, since they seem to have no respect or sense of reality regarding their own consumers. Good examples of people who do seem to understand the proper way to do things are Belgium's Cebedem, Holland's Donemus, and Alastair's Sorabji Archive. When you see what the product is, it reflects the price in a convincing way. I got several string quartets and piano sonatas in score from Cebedem and the prices were remarkably fair, even considering how worthless my lousy American $s seem. The Sorabji items may seem expensive but they are damned huge, and printed on enormous paper (I've not yet ordered one of these, but there are several in the UPenn library that I've looked through).

Besides, if you're sharing in web forums, etc... the responsibility for your actions lies with the forum itself.

Offline thalbergmad

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I would hate to be in your bad books.

Thal ;D
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Offline ahinton

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I would hate to be in your bad books.

Thal ;D
And I'm sure that we'd all hate to be in yours, but in thanking "indutrial" for his kind remarks about what we produce and distribute, I would like to point out that our supply prices have for the most part remained unchanged for many years (other than those at the bottom end of the price bracket), despite increased production and shipping costs.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

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I would like to point out that our supply prices have for the most part remained unchanged for many years (other than those at the bottom end of the price bracket), despite increased production and shipping costs.

That is nice to hear, but i fear you are in the minority in holding your prices.

I am giving up buying scores for a year, as my little ledger book indicates i have spent almost £4000 since April 07. Travis & Emery, The British Library and the Royal College of Music, might notice a fall in their sales.

Could have bought a nice "Mastertone" for that sum.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline indutrial

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I would hate to be in your bad books.

Thal ;D

I do indeed have a tendency to not turn the other cheek about that kind of thing. I just don't want anyone to step in the same piles of annoying dung that I've encountered in the past.

Offline Bob

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Just contact the publisher and ask.  They should know. 

I think things are public domain before 1923, but there are always exceptions.  You need to know the date it was published, the death date of the author, things like that.  I think works are still protected for something like 75 years after the death of the author. 

Even if it's not under copyright anymore, they could have made an arrangement of it, so you could be sued for using something similar to the new arrangement.

Even if it's out of print, it can still be under copyright.  They just don't print if they don't think they will make money.  They can still hold the rights to it though.

You just need to know if it's under copyright still or in public domain.  If you've got the publisher, that's a plus.  That's not always possible, and then where do you go?

There is a Harry Fox agency that deals with that stuff.  I don't know if they are on the performance end or the print end though. 

I would just contact the publisher.  Ask if it's in public domain.  Or even if it's under copyright, ask if it's ok for you to make a copy and give that to a friend, no charge.  If no one's buying the music, they might not charge.  They might say they have to make the copy.  They might say you have to include a copyright notice on the copy. 

It's hard to tell on that stuff, but you're having good luck to have the publisher's name like that.  Sometimes the publisher really doesn't care about the original work.  They just want a return on the formatting work they did.  In a case like that, you can go back to the original and use that if you were making an arrangement. 

Let us know what happens.  I'm curious.  I don't really understand what you're asking though.  I'm assuming you want to scan a piece of music out of an anthology and send it to a friend. 

And if you want to be freaked out along those lines, I hear they put a little extra encoding into devices so they can track the media they produce.  Scan something, and the scans have your machine's number embedded into them.  Take a picture and you're camera's number is attached to the picture.  Scary.  If that's true.  I even heard that about paper printers.  Efforts to deal with counterfeiting. 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline ahinton

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Just contact the publisher and ask.  They should know.
Indeed they should, although there's no absolute guarantee that the publisher still exists, of course; when there is no existing publisher, the best thing to do is contact the organisation that deals with such rights, licensing, etc. - PRS in UK, SACEM in France, GEMA in Germany, ASCAP in US, SOCAN in Canada and so on.

I think things are public domain before 1923, but there are always exceptions.  You need to know the date it was published, the death date of the author, things like that.  I think works are still protected for something like 75 years after the death of the author.
These are indeed facts of which one needs knowledge before deciding what one may and may not do within the law. The 1923 date is one that is peculiar to US; I believe that it applies to works published before that date as being in the public domain there. Copyright law varies from country to country; if only it didn't, there'd be far less misunderstanding of it and of how it is supposed to apply. There have been attempts at harmonisation of intellectual property laws, one consequence of which has been that a term expiring at the end of the 70th year following the composer's death applies in quite a few countries, principally in Europe. The absence of co-ordinated law internationally ensures that works that are in the public domain in some countries remain in copyright in others, which is a most unsatisfactory and confusing state of affairs. I personally had to deal with this anomalous situation in negotiating permission for performances of Sorabji's piano paraphrase of the closing scene from Salome; the score of Strauss's opera was first published a little over a century ago and is in the public domain in US and certain other territories but is firmly in copyright throughout Europe and will remain so until 1 January 1920.

Even if it's not under copyright anymore, they could have made an arrangement of it, so you could be sued for using something similar to the new arrangement.
Broadly speaking, this is true, since the arranged work may be in the public domain but the arrangement itself can be copyrighted; however, if both the arranged work and the arrangment are in copyright, the rights of the original composer usually take precedence over those of the arranger.

Even if it's out of print, it can still be under copyright.  They just don't print if they don't think they will make money.  They can still hold the rights to it though.
This is very true (but see below).

You just need to know if it's under copyright still or in public domain.  If you've got the publisher, that's a plus.  That's not always possible, and then where do you go?

There is a Harry Fox agency that deals with that stuff.  I don't know if they are on the performance end or the print end though. 

I would just contact the publisher.  Ask if it's in public domain.  Or even if it's under copyright, ask if it's ok for you to make a copy and give that to a friend, no charge.  If no one's buying the music, they might not charge.  They might say they have to make the copy.  They might say you have to include a copyright notice on the copy. 

It's hard to tell on that stuff, but you're having good luck to have the publisher's name like that.  Sometimes the publisher really doesn't care about the original work.  They just want a return on the formatting work they did.  In a case like that, you can go back to the original and use that if you were making an arrangement. 

Let us know what happens.  I'm curious.  I don't really understand what you're asking though.  I'm assuming you want to scan a piece of music out of an anthology and send it to a friend. 

And if you want to be freaked out along those lines, I hear they put a little extra encoding into devices so they can track the media they produce.  Scan something, and the scans have your machine's number embedded into them.  Take a picture and you're camera's number is attached to the picture.  Scary.  If that's true.  I even heard that about paper printers.  Efforts to deal with counterfeiting. 
Such efforts to overcome counterfeiting are usually a waste of time in terms of effectiveness, frankly; there's almost always ways around it. One point that's often overlooked in this matter, however, is that a publisher doesn't just have rights; he also has responsibilities attaching to those rights. I have come close to putting this to the test on one occasion. If a publisher has the publication proofs of a copyright work that is out of print, he is legally obliged to supply copies to bona fide purchasers upon request at a price that would be deemed reasonable in a court of law. Years ago, I wanted to obtain a copy of Frank Bridge's Second Piano Trio (one of his finest works, I think) which was then out of print and is in copyright. I contacted the publisher to ask for one but received no response. I repeated the exercise with the same non-result. I consulted a lawyer who advised that, provided that I could prove that I had made my request unsuccessfully in writing on successive occasions and that the publisher had received the correspondence, I could go ahead and photocopy the publication (assuming that I could find an original somewhere) without breaking the law, in that, in the unlikely event that the publisher then to find out and sue, I would win any court case without question. Fortunately, this matter did not go to court, but in my final request to the publisher I did state that, in the continued absence of response, I would follow this advice; this did the trick, although they charged me a small fortune for a tatty photocopy of a used score (not impressive, that).

Many people feel that copyright is an imposition that ought to be done away with altogether. Obviously, as a composer, I disagree that it should be abandoned, but I do agree that harmonisation and simplification of international intellectual property law would be a desirable thing, one not insignificant outcome of which might be a more positive public attitude to it. The question of how long the copyright term should be is a vexed one to which there can be no correct answer; to those who criticise terms such as 70 years following the composer's death as being excessive, I would point out that some works may not get performed until late in the composer's lifetime and others not until after his/her death, so some reasonable post-death extension of the term is far from unrealistic in practice. A composer can, at least in theory, sidestep the law by placing some or all of his/her works in the public domain everywhere by implementing a legal deed to that effect; this is equivalent to someone giving away some or all of their possesions. I am not aware of any such examples, however, although the bizarre laws of the former Soviet Union had a not dissimilar effect on quite a few of the works of Russian composers to the extent that many works by Shostakovich, for example, are in the public domain even though he's been dead for only a little over 30 years.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline Bob

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Very interesting.

I remember all the effort it took to do the right thing and get an official copy, paying $5 for some clerk to copy a page of music and stick a publisher's stamp on it.  Lop-sided copy too.  Cheap, thin paper.  You would have thought they would make a nice, neat, professional copy.  But it was all legal that way.  And it took forever.  A few months, but that's forever when you need it right away.

Very interesting though.  And it's all so easy to just scan or photocopy and be done with it all.  Except you might get sued... but I don't really know of anyone who has... but it might just be your bad luck if you do make a quick copy....

It does feel really nice once you're completely in the clear though.  There are no questions or concerns like this weighing down your mind.  I had this little concern in the back of my mind that if I did make an illegal copy, somehow just before the performance, something would happen that would stop everything.. all based on making an illegal copy.  Not having time enough to correct things and having that performance completely halted.  Five bucks isn't so much compared to having that happen.

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline richard black

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In practice, publishers vary just as much as companies (and indeed individuals) in any field of activity. I once needed copyright clearance to reprint a poem for some CD sleeve notes. I went to considerable trouble to track down the publisher and it turned out to be part of one of the very big conglomerates. I wrote to them and got a very nice letter back saying, basically, we can't find any record of publishing that, it was all a very long time ago, go ahead and reprint. I rang Novello a few years ago asking about a small number of missing pages in a second-hand score I had bought - they sent the pages, immaculately copied, by first class post the next day, with no invoice.

But some are proper grasping. I'm still cross at having to pay £6.50, nearly 10 years ago, for a three-page song by Poulenc - a single piece of paper, folded, with no cover of any kind. But I needed it and couldn't find a library or second-hand copy anywhere. And how does Boosey and Hawkes justify £70 (roughly) for Salome when Die Frau ohne Schatten (nearly twice as long) is £27 from Richard Strauss Verlag in identical quality of printing and binding? The former seems pricey, the latter frankly a bargain, in or out of copyright (given how many they'll sell, it's not exactly Carmen).

But then I suppose if I understood business decisions I'd be a businessman, not a piano player!
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Offline thalbergmad

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By the time you have finished reading AH's post, most works would be out of copyright.

Problem solved.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

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By the time you have finished reading AH's post, most works would be out of copyright.

Problem solved.

Thal
No, Thal - problem not solved, because part of that post opens up the question of how long that copyright period should be. Your problem appears to be that you like everything to be plain and simple and, if it isn't, you have to pour scorn on it and then that's OK. I have tried as succinctly as I can to address the subject, fleshing out my remarks as best I can with a single personal experience of how it operates in practice. It is not my fault that international intellectual property laws are as complex and anomalous as they are, but I would be doing everyone here a disservice if I omitted to point out that this is inded the case. Just read that post again; it's quite simple, really, although the subject itself is, as I observed, replete with all manner of complexities that affect many people and against which I sought to rail as best I could, for what that might or might not be worth. Have another think, Thal; at the very least you owe that to yourself and to the rest of us here...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

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Chill man
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Offline ahinton

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Chill man
In this cold english weather I am already more than sufficiently "chilled", thanks! (I'm just not much good at handling damp, cold english weather, even though it's been pleasant enough here today apart from the - er - chill factor).

But to return to the subject - you remarked about my post which was supposed to address the question, so instead of writing about "chilling", why not consider contributing something that's directly relevant to it yourself?

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

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Indutrial summed everything up perfectly.

I have nothing to add.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline Bob

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I was told "reasonable costs" for them making a copy include paying a clerk's hourly pay, not just the .10 per page.

If you do get authentic, official copies, they or you are supposed to put some kind of notice on it indicating you got permission.  Although, thinking about it now, I suppose you could just do that part illegally too.  Having the reciept/invoice and papertrail is a smart move too. 

In the case these mysterious copyright police ever come around.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline ahinton

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I was told "reasonable costs" for them making a copy include paying a clerk's hourly pay, not just the .10 per page.

If you do get authentic, official copies, they or you are supposed to put some kind of notice on it indicating you got permission.  Although, thinking about it now, I suppose you could just do that part illegally too.  Having the reciept/invoice and papertrail is a smart move too. 

In the case these mysterious copyright police ever come around.
There aren't many copyright policemen/women around that are operating full-time in our field, but having an appropriate paper trail to evidence and support one's investigations, requests and subsequent possession is, as you rightly say, a wise idea; if you have that paper trail including the publisher's sanction (or evidence that you obtained the copy from the publisher), you need not stamp any kind of supportive or corroborative notice on your legitimately obtained score, since the correspondence would already provide all the evidence that you'd ever need in the relatively unlikely event that the matter were questioned in court...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline Bob

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A funny thing is, on some pieces, buying the individual parts, the postage is actually higher than the amount of money the publisher gets.  Plus the time it's taken out of your day and the clerk's time. 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."
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