Do you allow student recording lesson or video lesson?

[dora96]

Hi teachers,

Recently, I ask my teacher that I like to record the piano lesson, because it is hard for me to remember everything you say, it would be nice for me I can revise my lesson by listening the recording when I practice at home. At first, there is no problem, I have only done it twice, and then I have phone call from my teacher that she doesn't feel very comfortable to record lesson. The reason I may misuse the recording. Digital recording can  turn into WAVE File. It can uploading into the Internet.   I find that it is hard to believe that she would think like that and I feel so insulting,  I will publish the lesson or use the recording for other use.

I feel really upset. I don't feel the teacher trust me.  Honestly, in universities lectures, Churches,  people recording lessons,  sermons , it is very common,  I don't know does she have something to hind? What do you think? Am I being unreasonable? I find that it is struggle for me to understand and remember the lesson and the mistakes I have made in the music. In the lesson, she talks and talks and doesn't make any notes for me. Is there anything I can do about it?

[danny elfboy]

Stop talking about it and don't show your anger or delusion.
Let some time pass and then ask her again.
You must win the trust of people and letting go while also strengthening this trust is the only way. If you now insist too much or make your delusion too evident it will feel even more "ambiguous" to her. But it's easier to trust a person who can let things go and doesn't make a fuss about these sorts of thing. Yeah she probably doesn't trust you completely but it's not easy. Sometimes even the ones we trust strongly delude us or cheat. So I can understand the need to make trust a long term thing, getting stronger with time.

[dora96]

Stop talking about it and don't show your anger or delusion.
Let some time pass and then ask her again.
You must win the trust of people and letting go while also strengthening this trust is the only way. If you now insist too much or make your delusion too evident it will feel even more "ambiguous" to her. But it's easier to trust a person who can let things go and doesn't make a fuss about these sorts of thing. Yeah she probably doesn't trust you completely but it's not easy. Sometimes even the ones we trust strongly delude us or cheat. So I can understand the need to make trust a long term thing, getting stronger with time.

Thank you Danny for your respond. When I asked my teacher for recording lesson, her respond was  " What a good idea !" She praised me that I am always eager to learn and diligent about practicing and studying the music. She also said that she wished more students would have desire to do it. Suddenly, she forbid me doing the recording because she heard other teachers' opinion about recording lesson.  She feel that she may get into trouble if something happen. Therefore for her own sake, it is better not doing it. Honestly, the first couple of recording helped me tremendously for my studying the piece. When I learn a piece Sonata, there are lots to take it. There are many and many details and musicial terms and phrasing need to be addressed. In a lesson it is hard to absorb of it all. It makes me feel sad, I don't have the tangible thing to work on. It also delay  learning the music. It is not fair I feel. I am just wondering how do I know the teacher teaching the right thing or not. Is that the reason she doesn't want me to record?? Danny or teachers out there  if your students ask for recording, would you allow it ?

[keypeg]

Dora, since you cannot record presently, could you solve the dilemma you are currently experiencing in other ways?  You state that you cannot hold on to everything your teacher has taught you in a lesson.  How about asking for 5 minutes at the end of the lesson to summarize the key points you learned so that they will be fresh in your memory, and then going through them immediately when you get home so as little as possible will be lost.

[m19834]

This is an interesting thing to me.  I think I have recorded every vocal lesson and every vocal coaching I have ever had, whereas I have recorded next to zero of my piano lessons and coachings (okay, I have recorded a few).  And, I do sense a variable comfort level with it, too.  It seems that vocal teachers encourage it, expect it, and are perfectly comfortable with it.  Whereas I have had the impression that pianists have not been comfortable with this.

I am not sure how I would respond or feel should I have students wanting to record our lessons together.  If it were in the spirit that you are talking about, dora, I would think I should be very pleased.

Then again, the schematics of my piano lessons as a student have always been *very* different than those of my vocal lessons -- though I am not sure how that fits with regards to recording or not.

Balancing student's needs with teacher's needs can be a tricky thing.

[danny elfboy]

I would allow recording yes.
So many things are said at a lesson and it's easy to forget something and since the teacher is saw just once a week, that's a lot of time to go without remembering something fundamental which has been said or showed at lesson.

[keypeg]

I am wondering whether my capacity to remember would be impaired by knowing that it is being recorded.  Also I think that the presence of the recording device would be distracting on some level.   The only thing I have ever recorded was the accompanist's accompaniment for my solo so that I could get familiar with the rhythms, her playing.  We only had room for two rehearsals.

This is slightly OT but I'm wondering about something: Somebody I know rehearsed with a pianist who had a digital piano.  That piano had a built-in recording device that would recorder only the piano sound while pianist and soloist played.  But it also could record this music in such a way that it played back at half speed (or 3/4?) which allowed the soloist the option of working with the music at that speed as well as full speed.  Is anyone familiar with this kind of piano?  Feel free to chide the OT content. 

[m19834]

I am wondering whether my capacity to remember would be impaired by knowing that it is being recorded.  Also I think that the presence of the recording device would be distracting on some level.

Yes, I think there is definitely something to this, actually, and it's something I have thought about for a while.  I do find myself often thinking during a session that is being recorded "oh, it's on the recording, I don't have to remember this right now."  There are pros and cons to that though.  Firstly, I think it always lodges *somewhere* in us, even if just in our unconscious.  And, I plan to say things seven times to my students anyway, precisely because of this.  Buddha says we hear it on the seventh time .

Anyway, a pro to not needing to remember in that moment is that it can keep a person's thought and perception free and in the present.  All they need to do is be there and be themselves.  Sometimes the anxiety of learning that lessons are completely overwhelming (been there) and that everything must be remembered so you know what to do during the week, well, that also can be a huge distraction (and hindrance).

I would prefer my students feel free to be fully present in their lessons, however that comes about.  Memory is trained by utilizing principles and repetition.

[pianochick93]

I have myself a diary-like book that my teacher writes in. She writes down what I need to improve on in my pieces, what scales I need to practice etc.

That works...except for when I just practice my pieces and can't be bothered looking at the book.

[dora96]

I would allow recording yes.
So many things are said at a lesson and it's easy to forget something and since the teacher is saw just once a week, that's a lot of time to go without remembering something fundamental which has been said or showed at lesson.

Danny knows exactly why I need to record the lesson, as he said the lesson is only once a week. It is a lot information in a lesson, during the lesson I know what should I do to improve the technique and studying the music because the teacher is there to explain. However, when I get home, I just can't execute the learning of the lesson. I think the problem is missing the teacher's speaking.  Old bad learning habit is hard to shape without the constant reminder. Especially the music is so hard and complicated.  Most of video recording is only on the keyboard and hands position. There is no filming the teacher even myself. No one will get embarrassed. The teacher worries that I will upload the recording in the Internet. Honestly I don't have the time or even technology to do it. I will never dream of doing something like this. I just feel the teacher makes mountain out of mole hill. I know we can write the key points and note down the important things but the actual lesson in fact is much more effective.

I have talked to my other piano mates, their teachers also have no problem of recording the lesson. In fact, one of my friend old teacher insisted that filming the lesson, so that he could prove to the parents that kid was not practicing well at home, plus he can revised the technique and solving important musical idea to students. I wouldn't know what went wrong if I didn't stand back and listen to myself. I mean everything is clear once I listen and watch myself playing the piano the tempo, the tone color, the interpretation.

[m19834]

The teacher worries that I will upload the recording in the Internet.

If teachy is so worried about that but you are quite sure you benefit from the recording, write up a formal contract and both of yous sign it, and both of yous have your own copy of the contract.  It's a like a fence between houses, you know ?  It keeps the peace and binds the trust .  However, I have found that even "formal" teachers in "formal" institutes resist formality -- go figure ! 

[danny elfboy]

As a start you can ask the permission to bring a portable audio-recorder with you at the lesson and ask your teacher permission to record her most useful explanations that you fear forgetting.

She can't use the argument that you're going to seel those recordings because for everyone else, except you, they would be totally out of context and meaningless.

Maybe seeing that you are accepting compromises will convince your teacher you didn't plan to make money selling video lessons because after all you're content with just recording what is useful to you and won't mean anything to whatever potential costumer.

[m19834]

ha ha ... and the teacher is not supposed to have an idea on whether or not her ideas would be helpful to more than one student at once ?  The student will tell the teacher that her ideas are useless except for in one context ?  I don't think so  .

Anyway, dora did ask permission as I understand it and has even recorded a couple of sessions, later to be told she could not record anymore.

[danny elfboy]

ha ha ... and the teacher is not supposed to have an idea on whether or not her ideas would be helpful to more than one student at once ?  The student will tell the teacher that her ideas are useless except for in one context ?  I don't think so  .

If you record a whole lesson it might be useful to some (but not many cause the approach with each student is individual and many of the things the teacher does and explain to a student have a meaning only with that specific student education) but if you record pieces of lessons where she is explaining something important pertaining problems specific of dora, of her musicality, of her anatomy and of her pieces/repertoire I assure you that no one would want to pay to get those recordings which would be meaningless for whatever other student ... from such recording you wouldn't even know what pieces they're talking about, how such a thing can be sold?

[m19834]

If you record a whole lesson it might be useful to some (but not many cause the approach with each student is individual and many of the things the teacher does and explain to a student have a meaning only with that specific student education) but if you record pieces of lessons where she is explaining something important pertaining problems specific of dora, of her musicality, of her anatomy and of her pieces/repertoire I assure you that no one would want to pay to get those recordings which would be meaningless for whatever other student ...

See, that is fine.  The thing is that an informed teacher, one who really knows her stuff would know this then, if that is how it is.  So, if dora feels the need to explain this to the teacher, as though teacher does not already know, dora is basically treating the teacher as though she does not know what she is doing.  For some teachers, any form of disrespect on behalf of the teacher's knowledge is unacceptable, and this may be seen as disrespectful.

However, if recording only portions was never on the table before, then yes, I agree it could be asked about.  However, I know that at least I am a curious person.  If somebody were selling any portion of particular lessons with particular persons of interest to me, I may still be tempted to purchase it myself (if I didn't know it was done without consent) -- just to get even a little taste of something sweet -- and fill in everything missing with my own imagination.  But anyway, now for me this ventures into ethics and information availability and so on.

[Bob]

I find it a little odd if the teacher won't let you record.  Usually they just tell you it's only for you and not to hand out the recording to anyone.  Fair enough.

But if you're paying for the lesson, I would expect to be able to take away all the information that way.  You're bound at some point to miss something that the tape can catch.

I have heard however of situations where the teacher demonstrates something and messes up a little.  Then recording gets out of that teacher messing up playing a piece of music.  And sometimes the teacher is purposely exagerrated something to make a point.  But then there's this tape with an off-sounding version of a piece "performed" by them. 

I would take it as a sign that that teacher is uncomfortable with their own teaching if they wouldn't let you record.  Not giving the recording to anyone is fair. 

Sounds a little fishy.  And the teacher tells the student that they don't trust them enough?  That the student might run off and post the lesson on the internet?  And what would that affect?  Suddenly people won't take lessons anymore? 

What's really to prevent you from recording anyway without the teachers permission?  As long as you're careful about it.  You're paying for the lessons.  You want that information.  There's no harm in reviewing.  You can be a renegade student and make bootleg recordings.  Yeah... and then post those reocrdings on the internet or sell them and make a quick buck.  You know how everyone wants to purchase illegal recordings on the internet of other people's piano lessons.

Is this teacher really saying anything brand new and unknown?  I would doubt it.  It's just personalized information for the student.  This whole site is filled with ideas on piano playing, and probably are easier to access since they're already typed out. 

I would consider it a fairly decent insult, that this teacher doesn't trust you enough, that you would put the recording up on the internet.  Sounds a little strange, on the teacher's part. 

If you really want to mess with the teacher, ask if you should take down all the recordings of this teacher that you've already put up on the internet, and how you go about refunding everyone who purchased copies from you.

I would consider it a big compliment and very positive sign that a student was taking the lesson that seriously that they wanted to record it and review it later.  That type of student sounds like they are trying to do the most they can with the teacher's ideas.  Even if it was posted on the internet, what's going to happen then?  What difference is that really going to make?  You could just as easily post your own hand written notes or personal reflections and memories of the lesson.  If the teacher is influential enough, that stuff gets out any way.

[dora96]

See, that is fine.  The thing is that an informed teacher, one who really knows her stuff would know this then, if that is how it is.  So, if dora feels the need to explain this to the teacher, as though teacher does not already know, dora is basically treating the teacher as though she does not know what she is doing.  For some teachers, any form of disrespect on behalf of the teacher's knowledge is unacceptable, and this may be seen as disrespectful.

However, if recording only portions was never on the table before, then yes, I agree it could be asked about.  However, I know that at least I am a curious person.  If somebody were selling any portion of particular lessons with particular persons of interest to me, I may still be tempted to purchase it myself (if I didn't know it was done without consent) -- just to get even a little taste of something sweet -- and fill in everything missing with my own imagination.  But anyway, now for me this ventures into ethics and information availability and so on.

think this thread has blown out proportion. Firstly, the purpose of the recording is extra personal reminder of the teacher's comment on the material I am studying. Once I understood and I can execute and express  the technique and meaning of the repertoires. The recording will be wiped out, and I will record the next problem spot. The video tape is only hold 60 minutes which the lesson is spent. I think the world is fear that the big brother watching and what if .......that something happen. The negative whole effect is robbing an eager and decent person to learn the music. The very super pianists like Baremboim, Bolet, Maria Joao Pires give masterclass to their students, it is also recorded. It is also free from Youtube, there is no charge. What is the matter? Teacher and students even someone we might not know can't exchange idea and learning passion. "FEAR" "What" !!. I am just mad about the  insecurity. I have been going the teacher for 2 years. All the sudden, I might do something ......Where is the encouragement in the beginning ? Where is the Good idea in the beginning because someone has said something bad about it? If the teacher is fear students and  give you insecure or negative comment, she shouldn't teach, shouldn't take people money ( charge me $80 a hour per lesson)  . Right!   

[m19834]

think this thread has blown out proportion. Firstly, the purpose of the recording is extra personal reminder of the teacher's comment on the material I am studying. Once I understood and I can execute and express  the technique and meaning of the repertoires. The recording will be wiped out, and I will record the next problem spot. The video tape is only hold 60 minutes which the lesson is spent.

Firstly, I am not the one whom you need to convince -- I am pro-lesson recording, and I have been all along !  I already know the reasons that you are giving to use it, but I guess if it helps you clarify for yourself while writing it out, be my guest !  I am not your teacher, I am not the one saying "no" -- she is.  Perhaps it's your teacher who is blowing it all out of proportion  .

I think the world is fear that the big brother watching and what if .......that something happen. The negative whole effect is robbing an eager and decent person to learn the music. The very super pianists like Baremboim, Bolet, Maria Joao Pires give masterclass to their students, it is also recorded. It is also free from Youtube, there is no charge. What is the matter? Teacher and students even someone we might not know can't exchange idea and learning passion. "FEAR" "What" !!.

Well, if I understand you correctly (at all), I agree with you and I eluded to this stuff in my previous post.  However, we live in a world where everybody is trying to be one up on the others, and many pianists were "raised" in generations like this.  It's reasonable to think that some teachers may think twice about what they give each individual.  That's just the way it goes.  I won't defend all of the reasons for it, it's just everybody is definitely in their own "position" with it all.  You can become a teacher and decide to post the lessons that you give on youtube -- why not ?

I am just mad about the  insecurity. I have been going the teacher for 2 years. All the sudden, I might do something ......Where is the encouragement in the beginning ? Where is the Good idea in the beginning because someone has said something bad about it? If the teacher is fear students and  give you insecure or negative comment, she shouldn't teach, shouldn't take people money ( charge me $80 a hour per lesson)  . Right!   

Well, perhaps she can be angry about the expectation on your part ?  In any event, you are together where you are.  Have you just talked with her about it ?

[dora96]

Sorry Karli, I am just bit overreacting. I need to talk with my teacher. I have an exam coming up
at end of this year. I am very anxious to get everything right. I am just really too emotional and
overreacting a bit.  Thank you for all the people contributing this thread.

[m19834]

It's okay, dora, and I wish you well with your exam preparations .

You know, video taping is a good idea in general, so even if you don't do this in your lessons, you can do it independently and view them yourself.  You may be surprised how much you see and how much you learn just from that !

[jamieis4real]

This is a long response, but you asked

A lot of teachers at my university suggest to their students to record lessons, because it is impossible to remember every little bit of information they give to you; especially at university where they stop you every 10 seconds to give you a 10000 word essay length of advice. In our lectures where some of the professors demonstrate different technical aspects and hold masterclasses they actually videotape the whole lecture and upload useful parts to the internet for their students to see. This said, it is true that recorders are used regularly at universities and is encouraged.

With my other piano teacher outside of university that I have been learning piano with for 12 years and counting, we have built a good solid trusting relationship. We have gotten to the point where we spend an extra 15 or more minutes after the lesson just talking. I feel if I have family problems or anything I can just talk to her about them and feel comfortable. We got to that point gradually, I always paid her on time without issues. Returned books, cd's etc on time ... I trust her because I also lend her stuff, we chat through email. Its not just the lending stuff to each other but she knows my family and my family knows her family and she knows we are good people. She also knows I would do a lot for her and her childeren such as dressing up in rediculous costumes for performances and parties, give presents and make things for her childerens parties etc. So its more than just a teacher-student thing, we both see it more of a friend thing, but of course I still pay for lessons. With that said I think if I wanted to record lessons she would trust me.

So, have you got to that point in your teacher-student relationship where you see your teacher as more then just a teacher? do you guys just talk like you do with your own friends? I think if your at that point she should trust you. But I am not saying dress up in rediculous costumes and show up to your teachers sons birthday party as a special guest, no no... IDK Maybe your teacher is an older lady and her children are already 30 or 40, in that case I doubt they would have a pirate party or 'winnie-the-pooh' party. I am not saying you have to do any of what I said above, just give it time... Maybe 10 years LOL

But then again, some people feel pressured when a student records. Im just guessing here but maybe some teachers feel like they may say something stupid or something they dont mean, something offensive or anything really and that may be the reason they don't want to be recorded.

[keypeg]

I am wondering if some older teachers might not be used to being recorded and not comfortable around equipment.  I think that I would feel stifled in my teaching.  I'd be ok with it as a student.  (Isn't that weird.)   But older people are often also more fearful of technology and it's a big deal.  If this teacher were comfortable and accustomed to recording, she would not have asked advice from others.