Is major creativity the mind *not* working properly?

[Bob]

I'm watching a thing on tv.  Half watching.

The idea is that creative people's mind aren't weird up exactly the way they 'should be' for one reason for another. 

That it produces heightened sensitivity, a drive to get ideas out of the mind in artistic ways, etc. 


Interesting idea.  Makes sense.  I have been thinking genius is "more" than average, but maybe it's just different, or even messed up. 

[Petter]

Yes, here´s proof

[Bob]

This goes on the nature side.  It's not about how much you work and practice.  It's just how the mind is set up.

Is art the highest human achievement, or is just the product of a messed up brain?

[thierry13]

Is art the highest human achievement, or is just the product of a messed up brain?

Haha, both.

[indutrial]

Is art the highest human achievement, or is just the product of a messed up brain?

Indeed, sometimes the most brilliant artists you will meet are incredibly scatter-brained or absent-minded, but that's not always the case. I've met some composers who are cool, collected, and perfectly normal to interact with.

Even if art and music require a messed-up brain, I'd rather tote that around in my skull than a brain that makes me submit to the forces of rote habit and cowardly consumerist dullness, which is what a lot of the other human-sized squirrels around here seem to have going on. The only negative by-products the average artist will deal with are minor things like the occasional mind-wandering and a more acute boredom trigger. Oh well. I guess having an artist's brain will hinder any future efforts to become a data-entry clerk, collections agent, or quality-control manager. I guess I'll never discover why it is everyone likes crap like Michael Bay movies and American Idol. Woe is me.

[term]

messed up? Relative to what way of functioning? As if there was an absolute one.
Think again.

[timothy42b]

messed up? Relative to what way of functioning? As if there was an absolute one.
Think again.

I don't think it is "messed up" as such.

I think creativity comes from randomization, and randomization can come from lots of directions.  Some of them are healthier than others. 

[term]

I don't think it is "messed up" as such.

I think creativity comes from randomization, and randomization can come from lots of directions.  Some of them are healthier than others. 

souns good. Indeed, the right half of the brain is specialised for randomisation according to scientific research. 
There is no such thing as messed up, even 'low functioning' brains like those of severely mentally retarded autists are able to understand enormously complex things. So quality evaluation like good or bad, intelligent or stupid and others are totally obsolete when it comes to the brain or intelligence as such, whatever that may be.

[keypeg]

I haven't a clue what the answer is.  But I'm highly creative and in my everyday dealings I'm sure I leave puzzled people scratching their heads in my wake.  If you are creative then facts and objects alike become toys that you want to do stuff with, and ideas want ot come out in colourful metaphor.  There isn't enough time to do, and there isn't enough time to acquire the skills to do "well".

[Etude]

Isn't it just a personality trait, that people possess to varying degrees?  Why would it mean they have a messed up brain?  Maybe if the person were an artistic savant...

[timothy42b]

Isn't it just a personality trait, that people possess to varying degrees?  Why would it mean they have a messed up brain?  Maybe if the person were an artistic savant...

Because creativity requires you to vary from the expected logical answer. 

People who are very good at linear convergent thinking are going to get the right answer.  But there are times when the wrong answer might work too. 

What should the next note in a melody be?  Hmm, I'm on a leading tone, I should resolve it to the tonic.  But if instead I shook dice to determine the note, I'd get something different.  Usually it would be wrong, but some of the time it would be interesting.

I used to think that creativity was a separate talent.  Now I think it is just increased access to randomization, like shaking dice.  I would note that it is common for some artists to increase their randomization by doing things like sleep deprivation or drug abuse, things that have a long term negative effect but do produce some art. 

[opus10no2]

^ very true, the musicians with the greatest conventional cognitive ability aren't guaranteed to be the most memorable and exciting musicians.

Accidental beauty, machines are incapable of it. Great music expresses and is born out of human flaw.

[Bob]

This tv show was saying creativity was the sensitivity that everyone possesses, but that gets ignored by the logical left brain.  Awareness of patterns, shapes, what goes together with what, etc.

I thought it was interesting that they said everyone had it, but those people who really use it are ones whose brains are working "less than regular" so that logical part of the brain isn't interfering with those "noticing" signals.

They some people on who were "normal" and got injured and suddenly became very creative and driven.  And started producing a lot of art. 

But it kind of defeated the purpose of working hard if that's the case.  If you want that level of creativity, you can't get it by working hard.  It's how the brain is wired up.  I suppose that's true too, to some extent at least.

[keypeg]

No, creativity is not randomness.  It is the ability to see things from many perspectives, to rearrange them in orders that are not always linear, but there is an order to them nonetheless.  It is playfulness.  It involves conceptualizing beyond what is there, macroscopaly, microscopally, and otherscopally.  Sometimes it is borne from the pure despair at the linear limit-minded world so that one resorts to exaggerated metaphor and imagery.  If it cannot explained in a book, maybe a single note or splash of colour will do it.

[Bob]

Yes, this wasn't random.  It was more like "just right" type of thinking.  Being able to notice and create things that just fit together well.

[timothy42b]

No, creativity is not randomness.  It is the ability to see things from many perspectives, to rearrange them in orders that are not always linear, but there is an order to them nonetheless.

Well, yes, of course you're right.  I think the basis for creativity IS randomness, but once the randomness is produced you still have to notice it, evaluate it, judge it, use it.  The ability you mentioned is very important but it works with the raw material it's given, and that raw material is primarily produced by randomness. 

And perhaps secondarily produced by primary process - but now we're getting pretty psychoanalytic. 

[keypeg]

NO, that is still in the rhealm of linear thinking.  The creative person holds many concepts and many items in his mind simultaneously, and seeks interrelationships and different kinds of order. By definition, this is not random but the opposite.  He begins with the concept and then draws the lines, pulling in the facts he already sees.  The linear logical person begins with the facts and works in predictable order. The linear logical person trying to be creative in this manner tries still to begin with the facts, but now keeps them jumbled, and then tries to see where this jumble leads in some kind of way - he's not beginning with concept to fact; he is beginning with fact to concept and is still stuck on the usual path.

Those making these t.v. shows are themselves linear thinkers who must then also dummy it down and simplify it to fit the concept of t.v. audience.

[Bob]

Or... both?   Haha.

This show was saying that everyone is taking in things, but certain people are "allowed" more access to this basic stimulus.

[keypeg]

These shows are usually for the birds and the experts are usually scientific types who would disect a bird to figure out why its singing is beautiful.

[schartmanovich]

Well, yes, of course you're right.  I think the basis for creativity IS randomness, but once the randomness is produced you still have to notice it, evaluate it, judge it, use it.  The ability you mentioned is very important but it works with the raw material it's given, and that raw material is primarily produced by randomness. 

And perhaps secondarily produced by primary process - but now we're getting pretty psychoanalytic. 

Why do people continue to carry around Freud's psychoanalytic bullshit even though it has been totally ransacked by the scientific community?...and this is nothing new. The man was, for the most part, wrong. End of story.

Also, if creativity is based on randomness, not much can be said about craftsmanship. The human brain is capable of a lot more than random selection and tweaking.

[gyzzzmo]

I dont think there's a 'should be' brain. Maybe an 'average brain' but with only average brains there wouldnt be evolution

[Bob]

"It's a good brain!"





(Bob contributes nothing substantial to the conversation.)