Help my technique is not progressing despite prcticing.

[etcetra]

Hi i recently  graduated from a university with a degree in jazz piano.  I am writing in this post because i feel like the kind of progress i have made in technique has been.. well disappointing to say the least.  I have been practicing the piano seriously for the last 10 years, and i practiced about 4-6 hours a day on average, sometimes up to 7-10 hours during my more intense phase of my life. 

I started piano late and i had only 2 yrs of formal training in highschool, and i know that this may be a factor, but i think i did everything that any other students would have done.. I've warmed up on scales, practiced everything slow.  I know i haven't done a whole lot of classical repritore, but i have learned all the bach inventions, at least dozen other pieces by bach, learned the first book of hanon in all keys,  I am sure i've learned 30-40 piano pieces in the last 10 years.  I spent most of my time learning different patterns for jazz and learning 100s of transcriptions ( i dont see how this is any different than learning classical pieces since you are taking a written music (that you transcribed) and learning them slowly, working on small sections at a time).

I don't expect myself to a virtuosso or anything.. but i really feel like the amount of time i put in has not been translated into a noticable progress.  I am struggling to play eighth notes at 100 bpm ( which is not very fast at all).  I know that some of it has to do with my earlier training in the university (without going to much in detail, i starting having problem with my hands 6 months into my music program, and i had to stop playing after i graduated because of tendinitis, and i seemed to have picked up major tension problems )

I am starting to think perhaps i may have physical limitations that I may have to come in terms with.  I know i have really bad motor/corrdinatoin skills..I remember that it took me hours to learn how to tie my shoes, and it took me more than 6 months to learn how to drive..  I am starting to notice these kinds of shortcomings in my life where i seem to have much harder time learning skills that are much easier for others to obtain, and i am starting to think maybe i have physical disabilities that limits my ability to learn and play the piano competently

I guess my questions is have anyone here, had experiences with people like that? have any teachers had any student who's development seems to inconsistent with their effort? its very frustrating for me because when i started piano i progressed very fast until i started college.. and it seems like i have not progressed technically since then

And right now technique is the only thing that is getting in the way of my success.. everyone around me ,(my teachers, my friends, proffesional musicians) see the talent i have in me, and they all tell me that i will go far if i get my technique, but technique is just one part of the music i just can't seem to improve on.  I know that developing technique is a lifelong endavour, and it doesnt happen overnight.. but its been 10 years of practicing, and the progress is abysmal.. and I am thinking maybe its time to come in terms with whatever physical limitations i have about myself..

[Bob]

Yeah, my technique didn't develop as fast as I would have liked.

I made a physical routine.  Did it daily.  Push and heal, push and heal.  Technique got better.  But just technique.

[etcetra]

Bob,

Thanks for the reply, I have tried setting up various routines over the last 10 years, and none of it really seem to have worked, in fact, i seem to be more prone to injury with them.  And well I've always had the same warm up routine for scales.. i put the metronome at a slow tempo and i play i octave of whole notes, two octave of quarter notes.. etc etc

[etcetra]

Also i would like to add that i am not just trying to get technique for technique's sake..i seem to do fine in other areas..frankly all the classical teachers that i've studied with (however short that may be) were quite impressed with my musicality and expression when i was playing easier pieces, and all my colleagues and my teachers sees the potential i have.  Well basically everyone that has heard me play tell me that i have everything going for myself except for technique, and thats the part i just cant seem to do anything about.

[Petter]

What was the longest time you studied for a classical teacher? Iīm from the "jazz" field aswell and itīs not until recently when I started classical lessons that I started progressing again. Sounds like you already did it but when I started to take fingerings, posture, how to produce certain sounds, avoiding bad stress, practicing less but more concentrated and so on, seriously that I started to progress.

[richy321]

i starting having problem with my hands 6 months into my music program, and i had to stop playing after i graduated because of tendinitis, and i seemed to have picked up major tension problems )

I think that is a clue to your problem. Excess tension not only causes injury, it has a crippling effect on technique in multiple ways.  I urge to to, first, look into Alexander technique (it is about movement in general, not only in musical performance) to see if your posture or way of moving is faultly.  Then, I recommend finding a Taubman or Golandsky-trained teacher for a consultation.  I did so, after a lifetime of frustrating practice, and the results have been unbelievable.

[rc]

I believe that a lot of technical difficulties come from how we're thinking about playing, often when I'm having troubles with something the solution comes after I change my approach to practicing it...  Things like listening more closely to what I'm playing, or developing the idealized sound of the piece in my head.  Or going from thinking visually of what the hands are doing to how they feel in playing, or visualizing the keys being played.  Focusing on eliminating excess tension (there's a certain feeling of 'ease' in the body to hold as an ideal).

When the thinking is slowed down so is the playing.  In the beginning it can be useful to think of what the hand looks like and what the wrist is doing, but this is a lot of information to process and eventually must be left to the subconscious, while the conscious can be focused on what keys are to be played, then groups of keys and larger musical ideas and meaning...  The conscious mind can be freed up from minutiae and be concerned with broader and finer aspects of the music. 

I believe that a lot of tension originates from overworking the conscious mind, trying too hard.  Not only is being focused on small details too much too think of in more difficult passages, the effort often leads to a sort of mental 'forcing it' which I believe expresses as physical tension.

I don't know if you've tried such things, but I've found these mind-experiments crucial for myself.  Perhaps you've created the habit of pushing harder rather than changing the approach?  It's a 10 year rut, but maybe a different way of thinking about it could allow progress?

[staccato1975]

this is similar to a dialog I had with my teacher, hope it helps.

teacher: so how many hours per day are you working.

me: six

teacher: not true. No one can work for six hours per day.

me: but I did, I worked on these and these X scales and Y etudes, and these Z pieces for six hours.

teacher: then it's no longer work for you.  Do something you can work on for two hours max, then you know you're working.

I'm still a beginner, nowhere near your experience, but I hope it helps you as it did for me.

[etcetra]

Hi thanks so much for all the posting, i've read them and it's been extremely helpful.  I am sorry it took this long to respond, for some reason i didn't get any notification about the new responses.

rc: I think you are right, a lot of my problem seems to be mental.  I remember i used to get extremely nervous when I played, and my first college piano teacher instilled a lot of fear on me through negative reinforcements. It could be that I am really tense somewhere.. and I am not noticing it because I am so used to playing that way.

richy321: Someone else recommended Alexander technique too, so I think I am going to look into it.  I had a chance to study with a taubman trained teacher for a short period of time during college, but i didin't have time to work with her extensively because of my schedule.  I remember that it was very helpful and it really helped me free up a lot of my tension.. i hope i can find a taubman teaher where i live ( I live in taiwan right now).

stacatto1975:  what you said reminded me of what my last teacher said.  I took me a long time to realize that its better to practice less and be efficent that practice long hours.  I think I am a lot more focused right now than I was, and I really had to learn how to practice. 

[thierry13]

What was the longest time you studied for a classical teacher? Iīm from the "jazz" field aswell and itīs not until recently when I started classical lessons that I started progressing again. Sounds like you already did it but when I started to take fingerings, posture, how to produce certain sounds, avoiding bad stress, practicing less but more concentrated and so on, seriously that I started to progress.

Proof of everything I've been advancing in the "what about jazz" thread... the original thread starter is a proof, also.

[Petter]

What proof? Proof that McDonald actually is good food? And I want cheese on my big mac gīdamnit, hurry up.

[etcetra]

Dear Theiry,

I, among other students are here posting their concern to get help with our problem, and I wish you had more constructive things to say.  Not only is your comment  useless, your it is quite short-sighted considering the fact that I started playing the piano late and I started having problem with my hands after studying with a classical piano teacher.  And its quite absurd and arrogant to think that what my experiences would amount to some kind of "proof" that jazz is inferior, since my experience is no way typical among jazz pianists.

I've read your comments about jazz.. i really think its one thing when someone says that they don't understand jazz, but its another thing when they judge everything else on the narrow criteria of what a good music is.  I am sure you have a good idea of what a great classical piano playing is supposed to sound like, but I dont think you have the capability of every understanding what makes Nat King Cole, Or even Ray Chalres (Who is more of an R&B singer/pianist) musical.  I wonder what you would think of someone like Ruben Gonzalez(Afro Cuban pianist), or pianist specializing in tango music.  Millions of people are moved by their music, but I am sure you will find a pedantic and academic ways to belittle their music

To me you sound like a musical equivalant of a racist.  You just don't like anything that doesn't adhere to a set of narrow standards of what good music is supposed to sound like.

I know Horowitz had a great respct for Art Tatum, and Glenn Gould called Bill Evans to congragulate his effort on his solo recording.  Most accomplished classical pianists I met have a great respect for jazz, if not they are humble enough to admit that they don't understand the music.

You on the other hand lacks neither the wisdom and humility to do either.  It's one thing to be ignorant and something else to be arrogant; you somehow manage to be both at the same time.  I may sound rude to you, but I think it's even more  rude of you to address the post starter in third person with no intention to make any meaningful comments.  Please don't bother wasting your time or my time posting on this thread.

[etcetra]

And also to say that western classical music is the pinnacle of human achievement, seems to be overstating, if not short sighted.  I am sure it ranks as one of the top, but how about Indian Classical music? I don't have the expertise to know their significance, but I would certainly hate to say its better or worse than western classical music, that is like saying that Hedegger is more important thinker than Naragjuna in philosophy.  I think the situation is analagous; it shows your Euro-centriciism in your thinking.

[faulty_damper]

Etcetra,

One of the most difficult feats of coordination - perhaps one that even trumps piano playing - is the impossible act of.... standing.  Standing is the most difficult thing to do because it requires so much fine muscular coordination from the head down to the toes.  If one part fails, the entire body falls.  It's a very obvious system: standing or lying on the ground.

Piano playing is not so obvious.  If one part fails, other parts can be used to compensate.  This leads to over-dependence and under-use of essential muscles.  If this were continued for extended periods of time, the pianist gets injured - sometimes permanently.

When I hear some of my peers mention that their technique isn't improving, one thought automatically runs by: they have no idea was "technique" is.  And when their abilities are considered, they are severely lacking in the skills necessary to play the piano.  A lay way to describe them: they suck.

Technique isn't something abstract nor can it be abstracted from music-making yet so many pedagogues and students think it is.  This is the technique myth.  Contrary, there is no music-myth.  Why is that?

I once thought the same: technique is something separate that can be demonstrated with scales, arpeggios, Hanon, Czerny studies, etc.  I had to suffer with pain in my hands and wrists.  And the worst suffering: no appreciable improvement regardless of the 4+ hours a day of practice.  I chose not to suffer.

My choice inevitably led to immediate conflicts with my teachers' advice.  I could no longer practice a minimum of 3-4 hours a day.  I could no longer practice scales or arpeggios.  In fact, I barely practiced at all.  And yet in one year's time, improvement came like a thunderstorm.  Former teachers were shocked.  They couldn't believe what I had accomplished without any instruction.  They were even offended that they couldn't take credit for it!  Not only could I play extremely difficult works but I played them comfortably.  Whereas other students struggled and made even easy pieces look difficult, I made difficult pieces look easy.

No doubt!  I mastered one of the most difficult feats of coordination at an early age: standing.  No one ever mentioned how wonderfully I stood or how comfortably relaxed I was when I stood.  And yet they said this of my piano-playing ability and it's easier than standing.  In fact, I sit down when I play.

It's not that I practiced more.  It's that I practiced with the idea that piano-playing is easier than standing.  Playing the piano is the easiest thing in the world when compared to standing so why is it so difficult?  Because you probably believe like most people, pianists and non-pianists, that it's difficult.  It's not.

You aren't progressing because your aim has not been to progress, as ironic as it sounds.  This is always true in all cases!  Even if you say it isn't, you are deluding yourself thus giving direct evidence that the statement is true because "... my technique is not progressing despite prcticing [sic]."

[etcetra]

Faultey_damper.

thanks for you comments, its certainly one of the most intriguing advice about piano playing that I've ever received in my life.  Are you saying that most of your technical improvement is based on perception and shift in your attitude? 

I guess I can kind of relate to the story, I remember how fast i progressed before I started studying with a teacher in college.  I was playing the 3rd movement of Beethoven's moonlight sonata in my senior year.  It's not the most difficult piece in the world, but I think it's quite a feat considering the fact that I started playing the piano at the age of 15.  It's only after i started college that I started having tension problems.. I think a lot of negative reinforcements about how i am behind really affected my playing mentally.  I think that's when i started having problems improving on my technique. 

I am really curious about what you did, did you just tell yourself that piano playing is easy all the sudden your playing got better?  It's almost hard to believe, but i've seen self-taught with prodigious technique so I know its possible.  How were you able to change your mindset all the sudden and what led you to your conclusion in the first place?

[m]

Dear Etcetra,

It is hard to give any definite advice without seeing what you are actually doing, but the most common problem (and from your message it seems that you have it) is a lot of tension in your hands.

Now, for a second think and analyze what happens when you through a stone. You have in your head an image--your target which you want to hit. Your hand is naturally relaxed and at some point accumulates energy, which then gets released and immediately your hand is back being free as a rope.

Playing piano is not much different. First, you have a music image in your head, then you need that there won't be any barrier or tension between this image and piano string--then you are in control and your technique will be translating your musical images and ideas in a most efficient and effortless way.

I'd urge you to find a good teacher, who specifically works on relaxation and who knows the secrets--I am afraid that would be the only correct way.

Best, M

[faulty_damper]

Faultey_damper.

thanks for you comments

You are welcome.

Are you saying that most of your technical improvement is based on perception and shift in your attitude? 

Do you think about contracting your diaphragm when you breathe?  What happens when you think about it?  Do you breathe better?
Likewise, when I practice to learn a piece I don't think about technique.  When I think about technique I end up practicing more with worse results.

Do you know why your diaphragm contracts?  To suck in air so your blood can exchange carbon dioxide for oxygen.
Do you know why you play the piano?  To impress naive young women into *****.  Also to make music.

I am not saying most of my technical improvement was based on a perceptual shift of attitude.  It started with the premise that playing the piano was easy.  This premise evolved to: Playing is easy.  Learning is hard.  If learning is hard and playing is hard, you did not learn.  If learning is easy and playing is hard, you did not learn.  If learning is easy and playing is easy, you are no longer learning.  This last one should be the goal.


"Pianist" VS "Musician"
A pianist plays the piano.  A musician makes music.  But a pianist is not necessarily a musician.  A musician makes music, which is a phenomena of interesting timing, dynamics, and correct notes.  A pianist gets these aspects mostly right thus not as interesting in terms of music.

Do you know why you play the piano?  Pianists don't.  Who do you think does? 

I am really curious about what you did, did you just tell yourself that piano playing is easy all the sudden your playing got better?  It's almost hard to believe, but i've seen self-taught with prodigious technique so I know its possible.  How were you able to change your mindset all the sudden and what led you to your conclusion in the first place?

What is technique?  What is prodigious technique?
Contract diaphragm.  Relax.  Contract.  Relax.  Contract...  This the technique of breathing.  Is it prodigious technique?  If you are dead, then...  But if you are still alive... do you think about it?  Do you have to?  Now relax.

I didn't just change my mindset.  That would be easy.  If it were easy, I didn't learn anything and I had a lot to learn.  I learned that learning is hard.

Technique isn't something abstract nor can it be abstracted from music-making.  Maybe what you refer to as "prodigious technique" is really just prodigious music-making.  Maybe you should explore this?

[etcetra]

faulty_damper

How are you distinguishing the difference between learning and playing?  Are you specifically talking about how one learns a piece?   What is it about learning that is so "hard", and are you really supposed to learn a piece of music? And what do you think of people who tell me that when I play easier pieces I play very musically but my technique is preventing me from playing musically when I am doing things that are more "technically demanding"? 

I've heard a lot of people who seem to have a lot of technique but sound very boring to me, I've also heard pianists who have ususual technique, or even "bad technique" and yet they are extremely musical.  I dont know how much you know about jazz or listen to it, but there is something that makes Theolonius Monk brilliant, and it certainly can't be judged according to the canon of acdemia.

I guess I am a little confused, I definitley feel like I wasted a lot of time in school. I've seen  people work very hard and yet not achieve any results and on the other hand I've seen people who progress at a tremendous level.. I met a 18 yr old (electric) bassist who is playing professionally and he is far ahead of anybody else despite the fact the he has been playing for only two years. I always hesitated to think that this was merely a matter of talent, and I always thought maybe the problem is that we are misunderstood ..

I guess you made the analogy of someone walking on their knees.. for someone who is walking normally it may seem utterly ridiculous, but if people around you are walking on their knees, including your teachers, it is very hard to really see the alternatives, or even realize that such things exist.  You really don't have the oppertunity to question what has been normal to you for so long, and even if you suspect something is wrong its extremely difficult to pinpont what it is that is wrong.

Again thanks for your comments.  I am not really sure what to make out of them, its certainly refreshing and challenging.

[etcetra]

Looking back at my experiences in school, I realized that most teachers I met tend to prioritize technique, almost as if technique and musicality are mutually exclusive.  They are thinking that the student have to have the right technique before they can play a passage musically.. would it be more correct to think of good technique and musical playing is one and the same thing and not abstract them?

In fact I can cite numerous occasions where similar things happened.  I remember my first college piano teacher (the person that i got a lot of tension from) told me that I am going to study nothing but classical in the university so that I will be equipped with enough technique to do what i want afterwards.  When I later found a teacher for jazz piano, I told her I had concerns about me improvising and not feeling like I am communicating something, that I am making music, she told me that once I get all the concepts and chops under my belt that would cease to be a problem.

I guess what I am seeing is that this is a way to avoid teaching musicality.. maybe its because teaching technique is easier since its what is musical can be debatable.  It seems like technique, according to them is something you can always improve on, so therefore you never really get to the point where you have enough technique to play musically.  I remember listening to a lot of my peers both classical and jazz, who has "enough technique" to do some impressive things, but I was always appalled by how lacking it was in substance and musicality.   

It was extremely rare to hear any talks about how a student is interpreting the piece, it was always about how you can employ a certain kind of technique to play a difficult passage.  I was also amazed how some people who are unschooled can create music that is very musical and alive, and I always felt like there was something wrong.  It was even more difficult, seeing how some of these students are being championed among their peers and teachers and how some of them even went to a prestigious grad school with scholarship.

I am not here to say all academia is wrong, but I've certainly seen enough of it to realize that there is something wrong with the way music is taught in a lot of places, even among respected institutions as universities.   I remember seeing so many students who were struggling and going no where, i just wonder how differnt it would be for them in different circumstnaces.

[etcetra]

Marik, thanks for your comments, I think finding a good teacher, is probably the hardest thing to do.  I realize that a lot of teachers are just teaching what they are taught, regardless of whether it is helpful to the students or not.  I wish I had better teachers when i started, but when you are young and just starting to learn, even a not so great teacher may seem amazing.  I've seen amazing teachers who really knows exactly what to tell their students because they know what's going on with their students, but thats really rare.

[term]

would it be more correct to think of good technique and musical playing is one and the same thing and not abstract them?

Exactly. Ideally, both come together.
Technical exercises are futile and a waste of time in my opinion. Why don't practise the ability to memorize and play music in your head? Why focus on technical approach, positioning, movement, anatomy of the body, thumb over/under, bla here and there, instead of talking about the infinite shades of grey when it comes to interpretation or the creative process of making music? Who's to say a posture or movement is wrong when the only thing that matters is the sound produced, and that's something that is not restricted to one possible approach but rather to as many as there are pianists.

[etcetra]

Term,

It's interesting how students, including myself have seem to abandoned the whole idea of finding your own sound on the piano in order to have the correct 'tone'.  I was criticized for playing too light when i was in school.  I think it's important to have the ability to play wide range of dynamic and sound but i think its not something you should give up your own sound for. 

I still think it's important to find a good teacher, but ultimately the sound has to be guide.  When I see keith jarrett he looks like he has a very unhealthy technique, but the sound he can get out of the instrument is incredible.  I know i tend to go beyond the scope of classical piano in this discussion, but from my limited experience with South American piano music  (tango, afro-cuban) etc, I always found their sound unique and interesting, its beautiful in their own way.  I can't really hold them to the standards of classical or jazz piano playing, but the more i listen to them for what they are the more i can appriciate what they are doing.

I wish there were more discussions like this in school, not about technique but about sound, about music.. is there any place in this forum or elsewhere that i can go to read up on this? thanks.

[term]

I agree. While i'm not exactly a fan of individualistic ideology, i think at the piano every pianist has to express himself and find his way, nothing else.

When I see keith jarrett he looks like he has a very unhealthy technique, but the sound he can get out of the instrument is incredible. 

Let me just make a comment on this one. There's quite a number of pianists with bad posture, one of the worst was glenn gould who had an incredibly bad hunchback even at a young age.
It's indeed important how you position yourself at the piano, i think that has also been said by Fink (afaik), but the human body can work in any position conceivable. The only question a pianist has to face is which one is best for him, not which one he has to conform to according to certain rules or ideals imposed upon him.

[faulty_damper]

When I critique a pianist, I don't even have to listen to him or her.  I can just watch.

When I see a pianist sitting too low and his shoulders are raised to compensate, I know he hasn't learned how to coordinate his body to be most effective and efficient.

When I see a pianist sitting too high and has to slouch over to compensate, I know he hasn't learned how to coordinate his body to be most effective and efficient.

When I see a pianist sitting neither too high or too low but only his fingers move, I know he practiced "finger equalization".

When I see tension, I know his technique is centered on a crutch that would fail if he eliminated the tension.

When I see movement that is haphazard, jerky, or not fluid...

And I don't have to listen to them.  The expression on their face is perhaps the most telling.

And in all of the above instances (and more) I took note.  And when I opened my ears, there was a direct correlation of sound and body.  If the goal was just to get from beginning to end just playing the correct notes, at the expense of music, then their "technique" obviously worked.  But if the goal was to make music, then they had no technique.

[m]

When I critique a pianist, I don't even have to listen to him or her.  I can just watch.

Does it mean whenever we want to critique somebody playing piano all we have to do is just to turn off the sound and watch? I actually can clearly see some critics doing it this way.
What the heck?!! sometimes I'd go even further and turn off the picture, as well  .

When I see a pianist sitting too low and his shoulders are raised to compensate, I know he hasn't learned how to coordinate his body to be most effective and efficient.

Yeah, I agree--those play crap and their music sucks.

Oh, wait a second... how should I critique those individuals who sit too low, but their shoulders are NOT raised to compensate? 

If the goal was just to get from beginning to end just playing the correct notes, at the expense of music, then their "technique" obviously worked.  But if the goal was to make music, then they had no technique.

Sorry, it is too complicated for a non native English speaking lost soul. Do you mean those who make music have no technique?

[term]

What the heck?!! sometimes I'd go even further and turn off the picture, as well  .

Being factual in criticism is for pussys anyway. Use your imagination, for crying out loud! 
A painter must be judged by his voice, and a politican by his gestures.

[faulty_damper]

Does it mean whenever we want to critique somebody playing piano all we have to do is just to turn off the sound and watch?

Not everyone can read lips.

I have the skills to watch to know what tempo he is taking, how loud he's playing, whether or not he's struggling, whether or not he's banging, among other things.

Some people might laugh at this idea, to be able to hear when not listening.  I feel so sorry for the deaf.

[goldentone]

Faulty, so then you regard the music as irrelevant to correctly judge someone's
playing?  Technique is not the only spring from which the music flows.

[faulty_damper]

Faulty, so then you regard the music as irrelevant to correctly judge someone's
playing?  Technique is not the only spring from which the music flows.

You mis-interpret my idea.  A deaf person can't hear but that doesn't mean he can't understand what is being communicated.

In this case, I do not need to listen to hear.  I hear by watching the pianist play.  I am able to do this because I am also a pianist and know very intimately how sound is produced.  I am able to do this because I have observed many pianists perform.

When I play I do not need to listen to myself.  In fact, if I did I would not play well (nor anyone else).  I inner-hear.  Just as when you speak you do not listen to yourself; you already know what you are going to sound like before you open your mouth.  If you listen to yourself you would end up stuttering.


Most pianists are not aware of these things.  They assume that the sound produced is the product for which to strive for.  It is not.  The sound must already be produced a priori the actual aural phenomenon.  Technique is the physical ability to realize it.  This is why it is so easy to judge a performance only through the visual aspect.

Most pianists are unable to do what I am able to do.  They are usually too focused on on the physical aspects of a performance hence the need to sit on the left side of the hall.  They don't understand that both technique and music are inseparable, that one serves the other.

The opposite of visual observation is also true.  I can listen to a performance and know accurately what kind of technique the pianist is using without watching.  If a note on a scale is uneven, I can figure that his fourth finger is "weak" (a product of "finger-equalization" practice technique).  If it sounds like banging, I can determine just how much he is forcing the keys down.  If there is a delay or hesitation, it may be that he is "resetting" which is my own term for the release of excess tension brought on by difficult passages.  These are just some examples and depending on the musical context can have different interpretations.

so then you regard the music as irrelevant to correctly judge someone's
playing?

A short answer: I don't know how to answer this question directly.

[keypeg]

I would assume that many people are able to hear playing and know what is happening physically, or observe playing and know what they would probably hear.  I thought that was pretty standard.

[etcetra]

Marik,

I was thinking about your analogy about throwing, and it gave me some insights about the way I am playing.  I guess the problem i have would be similar to someone who is trying to throw a stone, but for some reason that person experiences fear, he hesitates to throw at the right moment and therefore misses the target.  I guess it can happen in  a lot of things like horse back riding, or sports, where you go through a traumatic event  and you have hard time finding the fluidity you once had in whatever you were doing, because you are unconsciouslly afraid of doing that task.

I dont want to claim that all the problem I have are psychological, but I remember at one point of my life, I was so nervous about my playing that  I would do considerably worse on my lesson than i did practicing.  It got to the point where when i was playing for my teacher, all i could think of is the fear of missing the note, and it really made it difficult to play at all.  I don't think I ever really overcame that problem.

at first i was playing too light or uncommitted..  in other words my teachers said i didin't dig in to the keys enough.  After studying with my teacher in college I think i learned to use a lot of tension to compensate for that fear.

I've studied with different teachers in various times, and some of them made the injury even worse. a lot of them assigned finger exercise to strengthen my fingers, hoping that it would help me dig in more.  I found a Taubman teacher who was probably the most helpful.. but I couldn't help but notice this awkward tension as i was doing her relaxing exercise, and after couple of months of not being able to get rid of the tension, i gave up on the method.

I know this is getting more into the realm of psychology than piano pedagogy, but I think I am kind of noticing something about my problem.  I remember one of the last teacher I had (he was really great, but I had to stop playing because of tendinitis and i am in a differnt country right now) told me that he didn't really see anything horribly wrong in my technique, and he told me that my attitude about playing may be the reason i had this injury.  I know i feel a lot of pressure because I started late. 

I remember listening to a recording I did a long time ago, and I was amazed at how I sounded.   I was playing in a very relaxed, pressure-free enviroment with my friends, and I was playing with such fluidity.. I was doing a lot of technical demanding stuff but it all seem to come out naturally.  It's almost hard to believe that it was me that was playing on that recording.

I didn't mean to write a story on the history of my problem, but thinking back at what happened, maybe a lot of my problem may come from performance anxiety..

[m]

Marik,

I was thinking about your analogy about throwing, and it gave me some insights about the way I am playing.  I guess the problem i have would be similar to someone who is trying to throw a stone, but for some reason that person experiences fear, he hesitates to throw at the right moment and therefore misses the target.  I guess it can happen in  a lot of things like horse back riding, or sports, where you go through a traumatic event  and you have hard time finding the fluidity you once had in whatever you were doing, because you are unconsciouslly afraid of doing that task.

I dont want to claim that all the problem I have are psychological, but I remember at one point of my life, I was so nervous about my playing that  I would do considerably worse on my lesson than i did practicing.  It got to the point where when i was playing for my teacher, all i could think of is the fear of missing the note, and it really made it difficult to play at all.  I don't think I ever really overcame that problem.

at first i was playing too light or uncommitted..  in other words my teachers said i didin't dig in to the keys enough.  After studying with my teacher in college I think i learned to use a lot of tension to compensate for that fear.

I've studied with different teachers in various times, and some of them made the injury even worse. a lot of them assigned finger exercise to strengthen my fingers, hoping that it would help me dig in more.  I found a Taubman teacher who was probably the most helpful.. but I couldn't help but notice this awkward tension as i was doing her relaxing exercise, and after couple of months of not being able to get rid of the tension, i gave up on the method.

I know this is getting more into the realm of psychology than piano pedagogy, but I think I am kind of noticing something about my problem.  I remember one of the last teacher I had (he was really great, but I had to stop playing because of tendinitis and i am in a differnt country right now) told me that he didn't really see anything horribly wrong in my technique, and he told me that my attitude about playing may be the reason i had this injury.  I know i feel a lot of pressure because I started late. 

I remember listening to a recording I did a long time ago, and I was amazed at how I sounded.   I was playing in a very relaxed, pressure-free enviroment with my friends, and I was playing with such fluidity.. I was doing a lot of technical demanding stuff but it all seem to come out naturally.  It's almost hard to believe that it was me that was playing on that recording.

I didn't mean to write a story on the history of my problem, but thinking back at what happened, maybe a lot of my problem may come from performance anxiety..

Dear Etcetra,

That makes lots of sense. I actually had exactly the same problem, when I panically was afraid to miss one single note, for what in fact, I paid with my whole pianistic career (i.e. after giving about up to 200 concerts a season, in a few years I just quit, only lately playing on and off for my own leasure).

Everyone struggles his/hers own way. Not long ago sitting in the bar I was talking to my friend, very smart man, very famous pianist, about all that stuff. His response was quite cold and straight to the point: "Piano playing is not about missing notes, or notes you hit right, it's about who you are and what you are. Realize yourself first, only after that reach to the instrument".

Indeed, it is extremely hard to feel yourself naked in public evening after evening. On the other hand, if you want to be an artist there is no any other choice. It is like meeting a cougar--you should look straight into its eyes and make yourself bigger than you are. Should you run--you are a prey.

The piano playing is not even about music or technique. It is about who you are and how badly you want to say what you want to say. If you have clear idea about the latter you should be able to find means of expression. If you are afraid of your own ideas, then...

Best, M

[dan101]

You've already had so much valuable input. Here are just two more points:

1) Try to analyze your progress by comparing your current playing to how you played a while back (say a month or two ago) . In other words, don't compare to yesterday of a couple of days ago. This leads to frustration.

2) Don't take yourself too seriously. Above all, have fun. Life's too short.

Best of luck. 

[etcetra]

To  everyone,

Again, thanks so much for the input, i can't thank you guys enough for all the advice and suggestions. 

Dan,

Yea I know i tend to push too hard in my practice.  I am tired of practicing and getting to the point where i was getting nervous breakdown, because I felt so incompetent about my abilities.  Considering the fact that I had to take a long break from injury and I am recovering and trying to rebuild a healthy technique, I feel like I've come a long way this year.. It is hard and frustrating knowing that you are not able to do things you used to be able to do, but from where i was last year( i could barely play anything back then), I've seen quite a improvement.

I know I am kind of expanding on this topic but has anyone here had experience with major injury like tendinitis that has forced you to stop playing for a long period of time (over 6 months)?  What was the recovery process like? Was it difficult starting over and coping with the fact that you didn't have the same kind of facility you used to have?  Also at one point did you feel like you were ready to perform again?

[leahcim]

I know Horowitz had a great respct for Art Tatum

Well perhaps, but whilst you're accusing someone of musical racism in one breath and mentioning Horowitz in the next, wasn't he infamous for saying that pianists are either Jewish, gay or crap? 

Anyway more seriously. I've played for 5 years or so, and pretty much the same as you I often practised for hours a day...and I can't play anything, not a single piece. I have the injuries and blah blah blah...well you can search if you're interested in the gory details.

So, yeah, whilst you probably won't find any shortage of "it's not about technique, it's about who you are" [yeah, Merik, like you haven't practised technique for yonks from an early age...who ya trying to kid? ] "Think not about technique, but about buttercups and blue skies and let the music flow from the base of your spine and channel through your body into the piano and out again into the audience"  The chances are, after 10 years and a degree, you're probably right in your initial conclusions.

We'll waste another 10 years, no doubt, either way. By which time someone might come along with something a bit more concrete [other than telling us to throw it]

This didn't look too bad once you get past his manner,

st?p=21598D1259C2C8EE but watching it and trying it, just confirmed to me that I can't play the piano and never will be able to. Although it was good to see how easily someone managed to show on video how he thought folk should sit and play and use their arms [technically speaking] in a clear and concise way. Especially given all the talking around the issue, the try yoga or Alexander technique, the stone throwing technique, Fraser's ministry of silly walking technique, the stir pudding technique or the pay $5000 for a set of secrets on video [video? Remember that quaint tech?] Taubman method and so on.

This is another one https://www.thefundamentalaction.com Although he seems to be in the process of editing it and it has the usual problem of talking about fingers and arms and what to move and what not to move but not making any sense at all e.g he says you push forward with your upper arm by moving it backwards...bah, whatever, it might help you.

Good luck with it.

[etcetra]

leahcim,

I have not heard that one before and not knowing the context of the quite, all i can say is that, great people are capable of saying stupid things too

I must admit however, that I regret making that post .. I am very new here, but after reading enough posts, i figured it's probably a good idea just to leave some people alone.   It kind of reminds me of the time when I was approached by several enthusiastic Christains. i was reading in a book in a coffeshop, and they had this need to convert me somehow.. at first I was irritated.. it was tempting to argue with them, tell them how irrational they are ,and somehow punish them for having the audacity to interrupt my quite sunday afternoon, but I told them no thanks and they moved on.

[leahcim]

leahcim,

all i can say is that, great people are capable of saying stupid things too

Quite, he says in one video that someone wrote a piece "before the atom was invented"

I edited the post BTW, [possibly while you were replying so you might not have seen it], to add something perhaps slightly more on topic...

[etcetra]

Leacim,

Btw I am reading some of your posts.. and I guess all i can say is that recently I talked to classical piano teacher, she and  gave me couple of advice about relaxation.. it was a very small adjustment, but it made a huge difference in my playing.. all the sudden everything became a lot easier for me.. sometimes small adjustments like that can go a long way.

I do experince the same kind of frustration and apparent a lot of people in the forum do.  After reading a lot of posts here and emailing a pianists i look up to (believe it or not, a lot of them will write you back), I just think..  the biggest difference is in their attitude toward music.. they are so engrossed in creating music and sounds they find beautiful.. I guess after talking to them, i felt like my need to do great or my frustration seemed trivial

I guess in that sense I agree with Marik.  If you want to do  music, or any other arts, it really requires you to be completey, relentlessly honest to yourself, and as Marik said, feeling completely naked in public.  I think our sense of inferiority can really get in the way of progress more so than any technical deficiency or misunderstanding.. while all these may seem naive and romanticizing the idea of being a musician, the more i talk to people who 'made it'... the more those ideas seems real to me.

I dont know what to tell you but to wish you good luck, and well,  hopefully you will find a way to play the piano "well" whatever that means.. as far as i am concerned, I've practiced 10 hrs a day and had nervous breakdowns because i felt like I wasn't good enough, and I am thinking maybe its time to approach music differently because i don't want to be like that anymore.

Btw I would recommend Keny werner's "Effotless Mastery"

[etcetra]

btw i am watching the video, and well, it kind of captures all the changes I made in my practicing recently

When i used to practice, I was practicing the same thing over and over again, hoping that it would get easier, but I was always having problems with hard passages and it was not getting any better.. In retrospect I was practicing wrong for the whole time and i was just wasting my time thinking that all that labor would somehow lead to progress.. nowdays when i practice i can see a noticiable difference everyday, I was pleasantly suprised when I was working on the same piece today and all the sudden the really difficult passage just felt so much easier.. it felt like a miracle

I really wish i knew what i knew back then, and I wish i didnt have a teacher that made me work on all these finger excercises.. there is a lot that can be said about learning it right the first time, and I guess we all have to burden of undoing some bad habits we've picked up along the way. I've seen it happen with my friends its so unfortunate, but I guess most of them loved music and they had the desire to go through that terrible process of unlearning, undoing and starting all over again.. and well, it may take twice as long as to get there , but you will get there in  the end, as long as you dont give up.

[leahcim]

I guess in that sense I agree with Marik. 

Perhaps it's relevant to you then. As I suggested last time he tried to say piano technique in 2 paragraphs and talked about throwing stones...either it's nonsense or I don't know how to throw stones either

Perhaps I'd agree if he'd said "it's more than just music and technique" but, y'know if Lewis Hamilton and Ayrton Senna are sitting in a bar saying driving isn't about the car or your technique we'd know that it's just so much bollocks from 2 great drivers who could already drive [and who are probably bored to tears talking about lines, apexes, braking and downforce]

Hindsight is a terrible thing...it makes pianists who spent 10 or 20 years learning [via various methods, usually completely different from the ones they later write and sell] decide it's actually easy and they then write books about how easy it is "if only I'd known then what I know now" - but there are no short cuts. Their book or video, at best, will just form part of someone else's 10 or 20 year learning experience, at worst is probably no help at all for someone who has completely different problems.

You find the books are either about music, or technique, or the more esoteric will write fanciful prose. Rock music is no different - see some of Steve Vai's "lessons" that he wrote for Guitar player magazine that more or less went "you can get technique from other books....try meditating.." blah blah blah, lots of mystic mumbo jumbo from someone who spent hours and hours shredding on the guitar with music, theory and technique coming out of his ears.

Marik clearly has great technique and the music too. Fine, if he keeps having that dream where you're sat at school in your underpants then there are maybe other issues preventing him from playing as well as he clearly can. But for those of us struggling to play the piano, music and technique are still very much the agenda

As for me, I can't play anything, not even 3 blind mice. I have no technique. I have no musical ability. Playing the piano made me depressed and now in constant pain. So I've given up.  There's nothing I can do in the next day, week, month or decade, that'll make me play well, that I didn't try or do in the last 5 years. Including at least 2 days standing on Great Yarmouth beach skimming stones

I assume as part of your degree you can play to some standard...so you are different from me, but I wouldn't lose sight of the fact that to improve you need music and technique, unless you play so well that you can afford to be poetic about what playing the piano is about of course

[m]

Dear Leahcim,

Unlike it might seem to be the case, I actually started playing piano not from childhood, but at the age of 12.
Unlike it migh seem to be the case, I also struggle with myself and playing the piano (which are unseparable), and for me music and technique are also still very much the agenda.

Indeed, I attempted to write about piano technique in 2 paragraphs. Now I clearly see that it might be not that good of the idea, as it is so easy to misunderstand things, or not realize what was meant. Of course, there is much more about technique and if you make a search here, between fights with some members of this community  you might find some posts of mine on relaxation and esp. on importance of music image, and how all the mechanism works.

But again, all those are only words which can be understood or interpreted numerous different ways. As I always stress, nothing can substitude a good teacher. A good teacher is not who will teach you music and technique, but the one who will inspire your music imagination, lead through the steps and help how practically realize your ideas on the instrument.

On many ocasions here I emphasised that it is impossible to teach or learn piano through the books, methods, videos, as well through the posts on internet. One single lesson can be much more worth than reading 500 pages book or thousand advices over internet. How it is possible to give any more or less worthy suggestion about such activity as piano playing without actually seeing and hearing what is exactly the problem? 

Best wishes, M

[leahcim]

Unlike it might seem to be the case, I actually started playing piano not from childhood, but at the age of 12.

Err, right. I can only suggest you think about that for a bit longer 

Although it's probably unintentionally funny, as I think what you were trying to say does make some sense. It tells us why many here, especially on the topic of adults playing, don't really have the first clue how to help. It's a different world Marik, and if you were a 12 year old pensioner in that world, you were at least lucky to be in it, because pianists that start at the age I did, aren't pianists at all and never will be.

Trust me, you don't know what struggling and failing to play the piano is, nor what "starting as an adult" means either But then, you don't want to know if you've any sense

It's a little late after you've posted recordings to try and kid us otherwise too. If you are crap then fine, tell us how to be as crap

As for not being able to help without seeing someone, I disagree. It's not that specific, the videos I linked to are an example of someone who has done something that, as you note, many forum threads arguments and waffle has not managed to. Something that, if you read my posts you'll see I asked over and over why no one has.

In that respect, even if you think the guy is wrong, you should at least recognise how easily you can see what he is saying and what he believes the right way is. Contrast with all the baloney about twiddling this and moving that, and rotating the other, throwing stones, and descriptions from folk who think they are on the set of House "Oh perhaps it's your flexor digitorum profundus try coordinating your interosseous and lumbrical muscles instead" - like what?

Plus, I've been to see many teachers. They were no help. As I've said a few times it's a nice thought to kid ourselves with. Despite having all the information in front of us and we still can't play so we decide some mythical "good teacher" is going to teach us. So we carry on failing believing that failure is because we don't have this teacher yet.

Sadly, it simply isn't true. For other aspects of music, once you can play, it's essential, but if I went to one of those so-called "good teachers", in something like a masterclass they'd say "come back when you have some technique" - and they'd recommend whatever they think works to get the technique "hanon" "taubman" or whatever. If they were honest and straightforward they'd probably add "but you're probably too old to learn now"

But yes, describing what someone is specifically doing wrong might need you to see them, but I think you'll find in a some cases, if you could have described at all well what was right instead, that would be enough. The stuff about throwing stones wasn't misunderstood, it simply wasn't an explanation of anything to begin with imo

Of course, it's also true that avoiding injury, the correct arm movements and technique and so on are only a tiny part of the whole picture. This is the main reason I know I'll never play - because what I play sounds crap only partly because of my technique. I can't play musically either...and no, you wouldn't need to see anyone to determine that or why, you can listen to them.

[etcetra]

Leacim,

I really don't know what to say, but i guess i will be straight foward with you.. If playing the piano is such a miserable expereince, and if its only causing you pain, maybe it's better that you stop playing altogether and move on.  Nobody is forcing you the play the piano..

Whatever level we are at, we do it because we love it one way or the other.. sure its very frustrating at times.. its too overwhelming to think about the future and what i want to accomplish ..all i can do is inch forward and be proud of what i accomplish each day.

As far as I know you have 3 options.. you can just quit altogehter, in that case you should move on and realize that its no longer necessary to express your frustration in this forum because piano is no longer part of your life.. Or you can keep on going the way you are miserable and frustrated.. i guess the third option is to find a way you can progress and be happy about your piano playing.. and like Marik said, it may mean that you need to go look for a good teacher..

i know this may sound cold, but this is the most straight foward answer i can give you.. i know there are a lot of external factors, like bad teacher, or physical limitations but.. you have choices, and responsibility as to what you want to do from this moment on. 

I choose to practice and work on music, even though I am still recovering form tendinitis and i can't practice like i used to.  I realized that I have to start over in a lot of ways because my technique was not healthy.. its frustrating but i'd rather do this than choice 1 or 2...  i know Marc Copland started piano very late (late 20s), but he managed to become one of the most influential jazz pianists alive.  It's not unrealistic to think that effort will pay off somehow..no matter how elusive your progress may seem.. but if you really think that there is no hope, then by all means quit, there is no point beating yourself up like this.

[leahcim]

I really don't know what to say, but i guess i will be straight foward with you.. If playing the piano is such a miserable expereince, and if its only causing you pain, maybe it's better that you stop playing altogether and move on.  Nobody is forcing you the play the piano..

I have more or less given up. Well, to be honest I play for about 10-30 minutes occasionally, until the pain in my right arm prevents me playing any further.

See my earlier reply to Marik about the "good teacher" myth. A good teacher is merely the teacher you had when you progressed. In that sense all my teachers have been bad - but although it's tempting to believe they were bad I suspect you'll find many will think these teachers were the "good teacher" I was supposed to have.

But no, sorry, posting in the forum doesn't require anyone to show proof they are playing afaict, nor to have a particular point of view or sunny disposition. That said, I've probably said as much as I need to in this thread. I posted mainly to link to the videos for you. I don't post that often though so I'm sure you can ignore the posts if you don't want to read them

As for not being miserable if I stop, if only that were true. Unless I'm mistaken I still won't be able to play the piano? Only moreso. How that will magically remove my desire to make music and play an instrument, I don't know. Perhaps you can help?

But, no, if you can take it or leave it, good for you, but I can't...and I don't really comprehend why you think there's no point to it? As things go of course there's no real point to anything. If I'm going to go mad with frustration and doggedly refuse to give in despite years of failure at doing anything then surely music is the one thing where many posting here can see why that is, even if you can't. But yeah, I wouldn't spend all this time trying to hang wallpaper if I kept failing to do it....I would think "sod it, it's not worth it"

[etcetra]

Leachim

First of all thanks for the vidoes, i appreciate it :

I guess i was under the impression that you were more miserable playing music than you were not playing music.  I know that a lot people stop doing music after they graduate from music school.. they find a normal job and a lot of them pretty much stop playing, so I know people who seemed to 'move on' from music in that sense and they seem happier now they there were before..   

I just hope that whatever you are trying to do, whatever answer you are trying to find you will find it somehow.. there are ppl who play music at the highest level, and they are people who just play for fun, and they are happy playing easy piano music.. i mean think of people who are taking their first piano lessons in their 70s...I know a lot of crappy musicians, crappy rock bands, and well they seem to have more fun than any serious musicians.. ok i am not trying to preach here, and I really dont think there is anything i can do to help your situation, but I am sure there is way to play the piano and be happy at the same time.

[leahcim]

I guess i was under the impression that you were more miserable playing music than you were not playing music. 

I wouldn't know. I've never played music and that is [mostly] what makes me miserable

I have played for 5 years and made no progress at all. I can't play any pieces, I can't play any scales or arpeggios or any other exercises. My playing sounds like I've never played the piano or piece before - whether that's the case, or whether it's a piece I've been playing for years.

I'm sure if I did make progress - anything at all...if I could play something like "C E G E,  C E G E" in a way that it didn't sound - after 5 years of trying - like I'd never sat at a piano before, then perhaps I might be on the road to being less miserable about it.

For what it's worth, I was fairly content trying, and searching out books, videos, teachers, ideas and so on, without making much progress for the majority of that 5 years [I say this because someone will soon post and say "Well it's no wonder you don't get better if you're so negative" Being positive didn't make any difference]

So yeah, what you call crappy music or easy music, I'd love to be able to play.
Of course I'd like to play harder stuff, but right now I can't play anything.

If you think "teacher" - well, to give you one example, I spent 10 weeks with one teacher learning a lullaby - probably about grade 1. At the end of the 10 weeks she said "Perhaps we should go onto another piece?"  but I couldn't play the piece we were doing.

You see, teachers ime have nothing to offer anyone who cannot play. I could have carried on week after week, going from one piece to the next switching pieces when she figured one or both of us was bored or frustrated to death, but never learning to play anything. At the end of a year or 2, I could have a whole collection of pieces I couldn't play that she had supposedly "taught" me.

Perhaps this teacher does have pupils who, when they can play the piece to a certain standard she starts talking about interpretation or whatever else, I wouldn't know, I have never got to that stage. The volume and timing of notes I play is as random as the pattern of raindrops on a window.

Worse, as you'll see from some of the replies to my posts in here, there are plenty who obviously think 8+ years of medical school isn't required to decide that someone who can't play the piano must be suffering from some mental or physical illness - which they are often happy to have a stab at diagnosing over the internet.

If you go back to your teacher after a week [or whatever the period between lessons is] and are no better they just assume you haven't practised. If I were 6 they'd be adamant that must be the case. The proof for them that I haven't practised, is the very problem I wanted to them to solve in the first place "I practise but I don't get any better" -

New teachers, even if go through all this with them before I start lessons - they'll always say "Yes, ok...Well let's start a piece you've never played..." and off we go, I take the piece home to practise - which doesn't work. They've offered nothing at all. Their premise is "your last teacher(s) must have been crap" or "you've tried to learn these pieces yourself, that's why you can't play them...and now you've played them for years you need to start with something new under my tuition" - in other words, they don't actually believe what you've explained beforehand. But they are wrong, because history repeats itself with their tuition [which is not surprising, because their method is for you to pick a piece, play a bit at the lesson and then they say "ok, practise bars 1 to 8 at home for next week" - i.e their method is the same as every other piano teacher]

But it's not surprising because they have no experience of it. They practised, they got better...and no doubt that happens with a percentage of their pupils too.

As an adult they are more diplomatic about it, they might suggest "have you been busy?" or whatever. Well no, in truth I had all the time in the world and sat for 5+ hours a day, every day during the week, trying to play that noddy grade 1 piece but failed miserably to make any progress. Until I can barely move my right arm....rinse and repeat that every day.

[keypeg]

Wait - when you get a new teacher they simply send you home with a piece?  Why must it be pieces at all?  Is that what they "teach" - pieces?  Something doesn't sit right with this story.

[leahcim]

Wait - when you get a new teacher they simply send you home with a piece?  Why must it be pieces at all?  Is that what they "teach" - pieces?  Something doesn't sit right with this story.

Yes, that's what the teachers I've had have done. I don't know why it must be?

The last teacher when she asked my goals I said - bearing in mind I'd gone over pretty much everything you can read in this thread "to play anything, even 2 notes, so it feels comfortable without pain, and I have control over how I play them. Whether that's staccato or legato, P or F or whatever" and I told her I would play anything at all...exercises, hanon, scales, pieces - whatever genre. Whatever she thought it would take so I could make some progress.

She gave me 2 pieces to do that week. Field nocturne No. 5 and another that I can't remember - but similarly beyond my ability [I've never opened the book at that page again, I didn't get past the first few bars of the nocturne. I made no more progress with these new pieces than I did with any of the, probably several hundred by now, that I've attempted before]

But IME, yes, today piano teachers teach pieces. Well, you can see Bernhard's threads on this [using pieces as the basis for teaching - whether it's music or technique], so it isn't that surprising.

What is surprising is that these teachers don't actually teach anything. This is perhaps why they diverge from what Bernhard claims to do with pieces. Or perhaps to be more fair, I suspect they do teach stuff to kids. They see an adult - one that can read music and someone who, albeit is no authority on the subject compared to some here, but nevertheless knows a heap of composers and pieces that their average student doesn't.

Perhaps they dismiss the tale of woe as though, I'm acting like many people who can play but say they can't? I've had this in the past where someone will ask me about my playing and I'll start to tell them the truth, and my SO will say "Oh he says he can't play" and at that point they think you're being modest somehow.

After all, you see Marik talking in here as though he can't play - so I'm basically hitting that wall built by people who can play but are either insecure or modest about their playing [or having a bad hair day or whatever] I was in a piano shop once shopping for an adjustable stool to see whether this was the problem with my arm, and said the problems I was having and the lady in the shop said she couldn't play to my SO when she asked. I joked and said "I don't think anyone can play the piano IRL, except people like Horowitz we see on the TV....I don't know anyone who can play" - and she sat down and started playing really well.

So, how to say you're crap when people that play say the same thing?

As I said, what basically happens is you start to play that new piece, perhaps just the right hand or left hand, and stumble through it a bit at the lesson. They might write some notes on the music during this phase [like if you kept hitting B instead of Bb they might write it in, that kind of thing...or if you get the timing wrong, they might emphasise it in some way and so on]

But bear in mind I can read the music, I can find the notes on the piano. Perhaps with a kid they are doing more. Then they send me home with the piece to "practise" it.

As you perhaps are thinking, there's nothing at this stage that I can't do by myself. I can pick a piece, read the music and learn the notes, and then play them roughly in the right order. It sounds completely crap, but I can do it.

I've never had a teacher [or anyone else for that matter] who has physically seen me playing and said something like "well, look, this is what you're doing wrong" - in the way Marik hints that he would if he could see someone.

The next lesson you perform whatever it was you practised. Presumably, if you can do whatever that was, you move on. I wouldn't know. What happens is they will stop me at some point where I make a mistake during that performance. That could be anything or everything, pretty much at random.

I might play a wrong note and then they'll go over that bar...or they might decide I should play the whole piece at half tempo because my timing is out. Or use a metronome. So that's another week. At the next lesson playing it at half tempo they might decide that you're playing the left hand too loud and the next week is playing the left hand softly.

How to do any of that stuff - i.e any information at all remotely resembling, for example, the info that is in the youtube videos and website I linked to earlier, has never been addressed by any teacher I've met in person. In terms of musical interpretation that is never addressed either.

All it basically is, is someone listening to my playing, stopping on some kind of technical mistake and pointing that mistake out in terms of the music, not in terms of what I might be doing wrong to cause that musical effect nor what I might do to correct it. Nothing that would require me to be there. I could post a recording and you could say "the left hand is too loud" - how to play softly? Well, afaict, a teacher will just say "press the notes with less force" - which is fairly obvious.

The really annoying part is that it is random...one week to the next jumping from one technical thing to the next, never solving it and never moving forward because my playing is completely random and inconsistent. Ultimately, I cannot play the piece and no matter how much I practise, whether it's the whole piece or just 1 bar of it, it never gets any better - beyond that early stage before you know the notes. If I try a harder piece, say a chopin waltz, my reading isn't so fluent, so it might take a while before I get to that stage, but I can butcher the first 8 bars of a Chopin Waltz, just as well as I can butcher pieces that are so simple they aren't even grade 1.

What I can't do is take any piece to a stage where I can play it.

That's pretty much my experience with piano teachers.

[keypeg]

That experience does not sound too great.  I don't think it's the only possibility, but I think it happens often enough.  One of the first hurdles an adult student has is that we are often seen as hobbyists.  A number of teachers will think that what we want to do is be able to produce the kind of music we like.  So they go along this pieces-oriented mode and think that's what makes us happy. 

It seems to have gotten better, but there was a time when in some forums I read teachers telling each other about adult students.  They would say "Let them play what they enjoy, and do what they want." yet in the same breath they would stress how important a structured guided program was for their child students.  They would also say that adults tend not to succeed.  Well, if the child-students were allowed to do whatever they wanted, wouldn't they have the same results?

The thing is that a lot of teachers have also had bad experiences with adult students when they did try to teach them seriously.  A couple of acquaintances turned this around.  They approached their teachers, present or future, and said "I want to do the things that will teach me how to play well.  This is what I would like you to teach me."  Assuming that the teacher does have a way of teaching this, in which he forms the student, the teacher then changed the nature of the lesson, or the new teacher started the lesson in that manner.  One friend had been in frustration for a couple of months, the other for several years.

There are teachers who don't go the repertoire route, and who work at building your playing.  Once you already have acquired habits it's harder to undo, but it can be done.  Then it's not a matter of UNdoing, but playing a new way, systematically building up however it gets done.  It's not an easy task but it's possible.  The question is how to get that teacher, and how to work with that teacher.

[leahcim]

Perhaps. Had I not spent perhaps over a year now not playing pieces at all and just trying to play notes then I'd probably concur a bit more. But please, read my posts, don't read one in isolation. I've read virtually every post in this forum talking about arm movements, practise methods and so on. I've watched videos. I've tried numerous things.

I haven't simply gone to a teacher and tried to play the music I like from scratch.

Today for example, I've just spent 2 hours trying to play C D E, C D E, as

1 2 3,  1 2 3,

Playing the notes as quietly as possible, legato and staccato with my left hand. And I simply cannot do it.

I can't play 1 2 3 in time, no matter at what speed, and I cannot get consistent volume from the notes.

And I haven't just done this today...I've done this kind of thing every day for years. Pieces? In my dreams. I can't play single notes with one hand.

Worse, if I watch a "here's how to hold your arms and move them" videos - much like the ones I posted in this thread, but I've seen plenty of alternatives - Then I'm even more at a loss how to do that, and tie that in with being able to actually play notes at a specific volume or at a specific point in time.

Simply put, I haven't the first idea how to play one note on the piano in a specific way. Do you know? Does anybody know? Why is it so difficult to find out? If I knew and you asked me I would say...so why doesn't anyone tell me? Do I need to pay or something - is that the issue?

But, I simply find it difficult to believe that anyone sat next to me could help - because you can see in these threads no one says "well I'd have to see you but yes, if you can't play the correct dynamics then you're probably moving your arms incorrectly..." they all say things like you are, something that suggests simply sitting at the piano should have worked, and the reason it hasn't is the teachers attitude towards adults, or as others have suggested that I must be mentally or physically ill in some way.

No one says "I've had a pupil who had the same problem and this is what I did..." - because no one has. They've had pupils who they believe didn't try, or didn't practise or didn't whatever else, that they decide is the reason that pupil didn't learn. What they don't have is any answer to the problem if you say "No look, I can prove to you I am trying and I am practising for hours, it just doesn't work"

Simply put, the teacher doesn't exist.

So, I don't believe there is anyone who plays the piano who can even being to comprehend a problem that they have never had themselves, and that they haven't even recognised is a possibility for their own students lack of progress. Let alone offer a meaningful solution to it.

When most pianists talk about struggling or getting frustrated they aren't really in the same ball park - it's usually doubts over their interpretation of the appassionata or whether they are prepared for their grade 8 exam, something like that. They aren't fretting over their inability to play single notes with one hand after 5 years of trying.

I can watch videos on youtube of people whose playing of pieces is pretty poor,  that can at least play notes and where at least they have some semblance of musicality.

I don't have the first idea how to play a note on the piano - what to move, what not to move. No idea at all...and I haven't just been to a couple of bad teachers. I've read thousands of forum posts and websites, books and watched videos and practised for hours and hours. If I go on mastermind with the specialist subject of piano methods, I'll probably win.

I still cannot, however, play 2 notes on the piano in any meaningful, musical way...and let's be honest, if it were really this difficult to find this so-called "good teacher" there would be a ton of people saying "Yeah me too" - whereas, as you can see, by far the opposite is true. Indeed, even if we recognise that people learn at different rates  which makes a straight answer to a question like "How long will it take me to learn piano" usually difficult to find...nevertheless, there aren't many teachers who will say "Well, it could take over 5 years to play one simple piece"