IS the musculature of the hand set past a certain age?

[pla635]

I'm wondering if anyone knows scientific evidence that hand musculature becomes fixed at around age 21.  I know a lot of teachers (dmitri bashkirov) assert that not much technical improvement can occur past the age of 21.  What are people's thoughts? 

[slobone]

That it's not so much a question of musculature as the physiology of the brain, which is much more adaptable at an earlier age. Studies have confirmed this with regard to piano playing. I'll post the details in another thread when I can get my hands on the article.

[hyrst]

Our brains and our muscula-skeletal systems finish growing and developing in our early twenties.  However, this is related to  structure and connection.  There are critical developmental periods when our systems are susceptible to damage, so that normal development is disrupted.  We can also appear to learn particular, system relevant skills at a faster rate during these periods.  However, I know of no evidence (and it is not supported in my post-grad studies) suggesting these periods are the times when learning and development can occur.  If this were the case, if we could not develop any new skills, including the finer ones, we would be unable to learn after our early twenties.  Adults would never be able to learn how to play the piano if they had not done so as children.  Studies suggest that a lack of stimulation can hinder the formation of correct neurological connections, but they do not support the idea that increased stimulation increases the strength or number of connections.  (My studies have been in gifted education and in trauma pyschology, not in music, but the principles would be the same.)

[slobone]

hyrst, I'm going to post a summary of the article in another thread, because I think it's of great interest.

[rc]

So far as the body is concerned, all my experience tells me it's extremely adaptable.

The other day I heard about a study on the radio about birds chirping, I think it was the finch... Anyways the birds would have random 'babble' style of chirping when they are young, which was where they experimented and learned how to chirp properly, and as they grew older they became more consistant than experimental.  But under some sort of stimulus the older birds were able to revert to the babbling, which would indicate that they never lost the ability to experiment and learn, just went more for results.  "Forget babbling, this old birdcall brings the females to my branch!"

My thought is it's the same for us, we never lost the ability to learn but over time become fixed in a certain way of doing things (gotta pay the bills afterall)... 

I figure if we don't get stuck in rigid ways of thinking, we can learn new things.  But I have no evidence, and am only concerned with seeing how far I can go for myself.  Since giving up, or being half-assed isn't an option, I see no point in the speculation.

[rc]

oh I googled the study: https://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/bengalese_finch_study_gives_clues_to_optimizing_human_motor_skills

[slobone]

oh I googled the study: https://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/bengalese_finch_study_gives_clues_to_optimizing_human_motor_skills

Very cute. The actual study is at:

https://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v8/n9/full/nn1516.html

I assume you're a subscriber to Nature Neuroscience? Then you can read it for free. Or if you have access to a university computer system...

[rc]

Maybe I should have said an article about the study?

I'm just a guy who hears things on the radio, googles and skims articles before running out the door.  No Neuroscience subscription here

[slobone]

There was nothing on the Scientific American site, but here's a radio show about it:

https://www.wnyc.org/shows/soundcheck/episodes/2005/09/01

Click where it says Listen to whole show, then when the popup window comes up, click on Piano on the Brain.

[rc]

Hey Slobone, wasn't ignoring your post, it just took me a while to buy some computer speakers and listen to it

I was writing up a reply but I think you started another thread on it elsewhere, I'll scope it out later on...  But thanks for the link, it was an interesting podcast and also I see there are a lot of other music podcasts I can download!

[slobone]

I'll check them out... some nice chamber music broadcasts among other things.

[a-sharp]

If we're going to get picky about words - the exact "musculature" of our hands are probably "set" at some point prior to birth. How we learn & develop is another matter - we are literal sponges (in terms of our brains) before the age of 5 or 6 ... but that doesn't mean we can't grow & lean well into old age. how our bodies "atrophy" is largely individual, and determined by activity level, and probably mostly, by genetics, i would think. ... If we were to stop moving before the age of 10, we could, in theory atrophy very shortly thereafter... (ever had a limb in a cast for any length of time? That is one example...) The article that slobone posted somewhere else is interesting.....