How to do effective fortissimo

[aewanko]

Any tips? My hands have become weak due to chores. And it's also because of my parents making me play pianissimo at night because its "disturbing" our neighbors, which is not.

[faulty_damper]

"Punch" the keyboard.  Forcing your arm down wastes a lot of energy and requires lots of muscular conditioning and building.

Pretend your hand is playing handball and your "ball" will strike the keyboard and then rebound off the fallboard.  Speed is what makes the hammers strike the strings faster, not strength.  This is the general description that should make it easy.  There are other smaller movements that will make it even easier and much more comfortable.  Figure them out yourself and come back and tell us about them.

I offer you this.  Offer us what you've learned.

[mike_lang]

I think there are two things that might help you.  The first comes from a former teacher of mine, Evelyne Brancart - on my first lesson, when she was teaching me how to use weight at the keyboard, she told me that one of the fundamental components of piano technique is "the drop."  In describing to me how to do it, she had me raise one hand, and then allow it to fall to my lap, saying "no hope."  After this, she had me transfer the idea to the keyboard with one finger, anywhere on the keyboard.  I believe the idea was that I feel as though my hand would go straight through the keyboard if the keybed did not stop it.  In any case, this came first - letting gravity do all of the work, and knowing how to uses the earth's #1 renewable resource (and it's free!).

The second idea, which builds on the drop, is what Sandor calls "the throw."  It's basically the drop, except using some force from the arms (or, really, the back).  You can try it on the fallboard; on the keys, without regard to accuracy at first; with isolated notes, paying attention to the metacarpal ridge; with chords; with groups of notes; with groups of octaves; etc.

I would encourage you to experiment with these, with and without actual music, because it seems to me that the proper combination of a founded core, the use of gravity, and a healthy participation of the fingers, one can get a rather meaty forte (& fortissimo).

[Bob]

Use the trunk of the body and just lean into it.


Or, what you need is the effect of ff.  Build up to it so it sounds louder than everything else.  Maybe it's really mf on another piece, but in that moment, it can sounds FF.

[aewanko]

Thanks for the advices. They worked although I discovered that by setting your wrist to an angle and by using flat fingers, I could do a good FF, maybe even FFF. That way, I could use little force on my upper arm.

Wow, I just taught myself again. We never stop learning, do we?

[dorfmouse]

My teacher just helped me with ff staccato chords in  the Pathetique last movement by having me think of an upward movement, rather than a heavy movement; eg imagining how you'd spring off  the proverbial hot tin roof if you landed on it with bare feet or rebounding off a trampoline.

[dan101]

Once you acquire the strength to do ff and fff, decide whether you want a percussive or melodic sound. For example, Bartok may require a percussive approach, in contrast to Chopin.

Percussive effects involve striking the piano keys , while the melodic approach involves playing from the keys' surface. Good luck.

[faulty_damper]

Once you acquire the strength to do ff and fff, decide whether you want a percussive or melodic sound.

Playing loudly is not about strength.  If it were, you'd see pianists hitting the gym.

[mike_lang]

Playing loudly is not about strength.  If it were, you'd see pianists hitting the gym.

Yes - it's a lot more to do with coordination.  That having been said, though, physique had something to do with Richter and Gilels' sounds - I believe that strength (or perhaps, body mass) affects sound production, but is not the primary factor.

[faulty_damper]

Yes - it's a lot more to do with coordination.  That having been said, though, physique had something to do with Richter and Gilels' sounds - I believe that strength (or perhaps, body mass) affects sound production, but is not the primary factor.

True.  A heavier arm's weight ratio is greater than a lighter arm's weight ratio.  The former requires less momentum to depress the keys because it's heavier.  That's why ants can't play piano.

[aewanko]

Once you acquire the strength to do ff and fff, decide whether you want a percussive or melodic sound. For example, Bartok may require a percussive approach, in contrast to Chopin.

Percussive effects involve striking the piano keys , while the melodic approach involves playing from the keys' surface. Good luck.

I tend to be percussive when playing FF.

[faulty_damper]

I tend to be percussive when playing FF.

Loudness or softness is often discussed as absolutes.  They are not.  They are mostly related to the character of the piece.  They should be understood to describe the character of a section of a piece just like a tempo marking.


If someone were yelling, that doesn't mean he's angry.  If someone were speaking softly, that doesn't mean he's being kind, either.

In the context of music, allegro doesn't mean fast nor does adagio mean slow.

In the context of music, forte doesn't mean loud nor does piano mean soft.

To be "percussive" when playing ff means that the music requires such an expression.  If it is used without context, that is a description of sound, not music.  That same ff in different contexts can be related to joyousness, jubillation, terror, torment, anger, etc.

[dan101]

A big sound from the surface of the keys gives more of a singing tone then a percussive hit from a distance. Having said that, the root of your problem lies with your practice restrictions. I would suggest that a keyboard with volume control and headsets would ultimately be your best bet. If you go that route, then get a weighted keyboard. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Open up your piano.

[gyzzzmo]

Pick up a big hammer, and start pounding.

[aewanko]

A big sound from the surface of the keys gives more of a singing tone then a percussive hit from a distance. Having said that, the root of your problem lies with your practice restrictions. I would suggest that a keyboard with volume control and headsets would ultimately be your best bet. If you go that route, then get a weighted keyboard. 

Oh come on! We currently cannot afford those weighted keyboards. Well then, maybe I'll just go to my friend's house just to play piano even though it's out of tune.

[apollon1717]

I think there are two things that might help you.  The first comes from a former teacher of mine, Evelyne Brancart - on my first lesson, when she was teaching me how to use weight at the keyboard, she told me that one of the fundamental components of piano technique is "the drop."  In describing to me how to do it, she had me raise one hand, and then allow it to fall to my lap, saying "no hope."  After this, she had me transfer the idea to the keyboard with one finger, anywhere on the keyboard.  I believe the idea was that I feel as though my hand would go straight through the keyboard if the keybed did not stop it.  In any case, this came first - letting gravity do all of the work, and knowing how to uses the earth's #1 renewable resource (and it's free!).

The second idea, which builds on the drop, is what Sandor calls "the throw."  It's basically the drop, except using some force from the arms (or, really, the back).  You can try it on the fallboard; on the keys, without regard to accuracy at first; with isolated notes, paying attention to the metacarpal ridge; with chords; with groups of notes; with groups of octaves; etc.

I would encourage you to experiment with these, with and without actual music, because it seems to me that the proper combination of a founded core, the use of gravity, and a healthy participation of the fingers, one can get a rather meaty forte (& fortissimo).

Evelin Brancart knows what she 's talking about...

[faulty_damper]

"Punch" the keyboard.  Forcing your arm down wastes a lot of energy and requires lots of muscular conditioning and building.

Pretend your hand is playing handball and your "ball" will strike the keyboard and then rebound off the fallboard.  Speed is what makes the hammers strike the strings faster, not strength.  This is the general description that should make it easy.  There are other smaller movements that will make it even easier and much more comfortable. 

I'm surprised that I said this over 5 years ago and I'm still saying it.  I haven't found a more efficient or effective technique yet.  I don't think I ever will.

[lcrommelin]

You need to experiment using the weight and support of your arms and torso. Make sure you remain flexible in your arms and wrists, avoid stiffness at all costs. It is OK to use quite some physical strength at the very moment you play the ff sound, chord or whatever, but you must release that immediately afterwards. And keep your fingers close to the keys, never hit them hard from a bigger distance. This way I can play a very powerful fff with hardly any effort.
https://www.pianopage.net

[nyiregyhazi]

You need to experiment using the weight and support of your arms and torso. Make sure you remain flexible in your arms and wrists, avoid stiffness at all costs. It is OK to use quite some physical strength at the very moment you play the ff sound, chord or whatever, but you must release that immediately afterwards. And keep your fingers close to the keys, never hit them hard from a bigger distance. This way I can play a very powerful fff with hardly any effort.
https://www.pianopage.net

Releasing afterwards no more absorbs impact than relaxing after running into a wall does. This is sadly the prevailing explanation but it never helped me a jot . If anything, it actively misled and distracted from a true solution. The reality is not so simplistic. The experience may seem that way for those who have mastered it, bit it takes something altogether different to go from doing  wrong to getting it right.

[nyiregyhazi]

To clarify what really allows meaningful progress- you have  to use action against the key to push you AWAY. No amount of stiffness or relaxation accomplishes that. Only active intent at movement does. Picture a pole vaulter. He does not strive  to relax in order to avoid jamming down. He makes room for himself to actively press himself away. If someone ends in compression, the whole action is wrong and switching to limpness will not fix the harmful moment that precedes it.

When you get it right, it doesn't matter one bit whether you relax at the end. The right style of action simply cannot end in compression, no matter how much you prolong it. Actions that demand conscious relaxation at the end just aren't good actions. Get it right and you'll end by freeing yourself  up and away, via ongoing action,, just like the pole vaulter

[thesixthsensemusic]

Always play FF with just a tiny margin left to play accented notes just a bit louder. Even if they are not literally accented in the score but sound so in other recordings of the same piece. Always keep a small reserve. Good luck!

[j_menz]

Always play FF with just a tiny margin left to play accented notes just a bit louder. Even if they are not literally accented in the score but sound so in other recordings of the same piece. Always keep a small reserve. Good luck!

Or in pieces that go on to FFF, FFFF, FFFFF and more, a substantial reserve.

I would add that you should retain the rhythmic accents, which may well be what thesixthsensemusic means by not literally accented.  This is particularly important (or at least all too frequently forgotten) in crescendo (and decrescendo) passages.

[faulty_damper]

It is OK to use quite some physical strength at the very moment you play the ff sound, chord or whatever, but you must release that immediately afterwards.

I disagree with this.  Playing loudly doesn't require any strength at all.  Just listen to babies pound on the keyboard and they can play as loudly as professional pianists.  It's not strength; it's speed.

[nyiregyhazi]

I disagree with this.  Playing loudly doesn't require any strength at all.  Just listen to babies pound on the keyboard and they can play as loudly as professional pianists.  It's not strength; it's speed.

If you only reference speed, however, it usually gives the wrong idea. PACING of speed (ie of acceleration)  is essential. I was teaching a student today who would jerk fast at the keys rather than start gradually and pace acceleration. She got a forced sound. You need to feel something gradual for effortless application of power. I showed her how to cut through the resistance of the keys with a slower but more powerful action from the thumb and then the sound improved. The thumb needs no special strength to whack the piano abruptly, but it does need to strength to produce a big sound with a slower but well paced action.

It's easy to move fast. What is hard is to channel acceleration effectively. This is what determines how much energy the hammer receives.  When doing so, "fast" is absolutely the last adjective I'd use for the feel of the movement. It feels slow and powerful and not remotely fast. And believe me, I play VERY loudly by thinking this way.

Not the best sound quality, but here's what I can get out of an antique Bluthner upright

I couldn't even approach that level of volume if I thought of power as being generated by speed. When I think "fast", I don't bond with the key and hammer well enough to apply acceleration. It just jerks away instantly and kills the power (and also ends in a very unpleasant landing). The speed is generated by clarity of contact between finger and key and the pacing of acceleration- not by intent to move any single part of my body "fast". It feels "slow" but deliberate and powerful- anything but quick.

[nyiregyhazi]

Also, nobody will ever convince me that a baby can play with a sonority like this:

[/youtube]

The manner of movement involved in that level of intensity requires huge levels of strength. Not in the arm, but in the hand. Listen to the last few few minutes and the cadenza.

[awesom_o]

The manner of movement involved in that level of intensity requires huge levels of strength. Not in the arm, but in the hand.

This is the secret to amazing FF.

[faulty_damper]

Also, nobody will ever convince me that a baby can play with a sonority like this:

Well duh!  They don't have the hand reach.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well duh!  They don't have the hand reach.

Well Kissin does, yet this is best he can do:

He's exactly the kind of pianist who often tries to make volume purely out of sudden speed from the arm, with a stiffened rather than effectively active hand action. Fast violent movements, yet relatively little return for all the abrupt effort and visible impact.

[dima_76557]

The manner of movement involved in that level of intensity requires huge levels of strength. Not in the arm, but in the hand. Listen to the last few few minutes and the cadenza.

While this is generally true for all types of fortissimo, there are different ways of doing it that produce very different qualities, depending on what you want to depict. Even if one has the ideal strong hand you have in mind to create function, movement, voicing (!), etc., focus on acceleration of the key will generally give a harsh tone, good to express aggression, ugly war scenes, etc. Focus on dropping will give more of a thud because you can not really voice the chords. Focus on mass behind the ideal hand will create more warmth and PRECIOUS METAL, the ideal for thundering fortissimo's of the Romantic literature to my mind.

Nyiregyházi, for example, often goes beyond what the instrument actually can do. While it is very impressive, I don't think it is what I would do in the Oberman. The king of thundering fortissimo's to my mind (in terms of giving the max and still not yet raping the instrument) is Gilels without a doubt. He has compact hands, lots of mass behind them to weaken the impact of the blows, and I feel he thinks "up", not "down" if that means anything to you (as in bouncing like a basket ball). I know of no other pianist, besides maybe Volodos, who is able to take such risks and still "drop" so beautifully into the point of sound so that you get gold, not hard metal and crashes into the wood of the keybed.

P.S.: Oh, and I forgot tone length and timing of the next tone, which also impacts the sound. Arrau, for example, makes every separate tone slightly longer (generally leaves the keys slightly later than most other pianists do, which gives a "heavier" effect.

[valentina65]

If you don't recognise my name it's probably because I have just joined, so hello. Interesting discussion but with all the dropping and punching and throwing how does one play fortissimo and legato at the same time ? For example when playing a scale?

[richard black]

You certainly don't need to punch the piano, nor do you need much strength in any part of the body. I'm not one to talk about loud playing from my own playing perspective (I'm not particularly good at it), but my wife is one of the loudest pianists I've ever heard (when she wants to be) - I've heard her playing a piano directly after I heard it played by a an international soloist who, in turn, I've heard play concertos in various large concert halls. And she has trouble lifting heavy objects, opening jars of jam, etc. Nor does she appear to use much effort when she plays. It's all about coordination and not trying too hard.

[ahinton]

You certainly don't need to punch the piano, nor do you need much strength in any part of the body. I'm not one to talk about loud playing from my own playing perspective (I'm not particularly good at it), but my wife is one of the loudest pianists I've ever heard (when she wants to be) - I've heard her playing a piano directly after I heard it played by a an international soloist who, in turn, I've heard play concertos in various large concert halls. And she has trouble lifting heavy objects, opening jars of jam, etc. Nor does she appear to use much effort when she plays. It's all about coordination and not trying too hard.

That's right. It's all about how the various parts of the musculature are deployed AND about a grim determination never to force anything. The late and much lamented Yonty Solomon used to deprecate students who forced anything dynamically at the piano - and, though not a man of immense physique, could bring off fffs and beyond without ever sounding as though his tone was forced. He also noted the sheer amount of properly deployed physical strength that was required in order to present complex textures at very low dynamic levels for long stretches of time. Ronald Stevenson was a master of fff when needed - again, without ever forcing - and his physique is the opposite of large.

Best,

Alistair

[gvans]

He also noted the sheer amount of properly deployed physical strength required in order to present complex textures at very low dynamic levels for long stretches of time.

For myself, at least, this is absolutely true. I find pp, ppp passages infinitely more difficult than ff and fff. For whatever reason, certain instruments lend themselves to subtleties of pianissimo. I have a relatively stiff Schimmel 180 on which p and pp are difficult, and a Yam C-7 on which they are effortless. Richter, infinitely better a pianist than myself, had concerns about metallic harshness in his ff passages, and derided Steinways for that reason, calling them "iron beasts" or something similar. He, too, preferred Yamahas for their pp range.

Whatever one plays, I think careful attention to dynamic shading is the soul of pianism, and musicality in general. Pablo Casals felt true originality in classical musicianship comes from the use of subtle dynamic changes, usually unwritten by the composer. I think he had it right.

[liszt85]

The secret to fff is not immense hand strength. The secret lies in using your body effectively. I once took a lesson with Janice Weber (BU) who worked with me over half an hour or so to get me to play loud with a good full piano sound. I weigh 220lbs and my hands are pretty strong. However, my fff wasn't great (not loud enough and not sonorous enough). She got me to be aware of my entire body and how it could be coordinated to produce a better sound at the piano. In the case of fff, one important aspect is to be able to use your back muscles as well in the process. It isn't easy to explain, someone needs to show you how to do it. All of these are issues better worked out with a teacher rather than discussed on a forum where you might get a lot of inaccurate information from other amateurs, which is why I've stopped asking for technical advice on forums. So go talk to a teacher if you REALLY want to know how to produce a sonorous fff. 

[nyiregyhazi]

The secret to fff is not immense hand strength. The secret lies in using your body effectively. I once took a lesson with Janice Weber (BU) who worked with me over half an hour or so to get me to play loud with a good full piano sound. I weigh 220lbs and my hands are pretty strong. However, my fff wasn't great (not loud enough and not sonorous enough). She got me to be aware of my entire body and how it could be coordinated to produce a better sound at the piano. In the case of fff, one important aspect is to be able to use your back muscles as well in the process. It isn't easy to explain, someone needs to show you how to do it. All of these are issues better worked out with a teacher rather than discussed on a forum where you might get a lot of inaccurate information from other amateurs, which is why I've stopped asking for technical advice on forums. So go talk to a teacher if you REALLY want to know how to produce a sonorous fff.  

It's simply not necessary to use your back to play loud. I'm not denying that it's a perfectly valid option some of the time, but it's not the big secret. Anyone who is of average strength or above has strength in the abundance in the back. The biggest issue is of whether the hand hand can actually transmit it without wasting most of the energy on impact and whether the hand is also strong enough to produce a big sound without a big active down force. If the hand merely stiffens, voicing is impossible. If the hand collapses, the bulk of the energy hits the key bed without passing through to the hammer. That's why the hand must be both strong and capable of properly coordinated movement during big chords. Leaning in with the back works if the hand instinctively discovers the need to push back against it and start trying to expand in response. If you don't chance on that instinct, by using the strength of the back you merely subject your hand to help to greater stress and impact.

It's not that it's in any way difficult to bring the strong back muscles and arm  into it but rather that it's difficult to learn how to pass on their strength by a sense of expansion, rather than drooping or stiffening, in the hand. Even if you learn to pass on force from the back in slow chords, it won't do any good for trying to play big chords fast. The only way to do that it is to keep active muscular pressures from the arm and back well away. All it needs is a mild sense of leaning in to start with and the rest is all about making room to expand the knuckles up and away from the the piano - rather than squashing down into every separate chord by piling on force and thus stressing the hand more, yet to less effect.

[liszt85]

It's simply not necessary to use your back to play loud. I'm not denying that it's a perfectly valid option some of the time, but it's not the big secret. Anyone who is of average strength or above has strength in the abundance in the back. The biggest issue is of whether the hand hand can actually transmit it without wasting most of the energy on impact and whether the hand is also strong enough to produce a big sound without a big active down force. If the hand merely stiffens, voicing is impossible. If the hand collapses, the bulk of the energy hits the key bed without passing through to the hammer. That's why the hand must be both strong and capable of properly coordinated movement during big chords. Leaning in with the back works if the hand instinctively discovers the need to push back against it and start trying to expand in response. If you don't chance on that instinct, by using the strength of the back you merely subject your hand to help to greater stress and impact.

It's not that it's in any way difficult to bring the strong back muscles and arm  into it but rather that it's difficult to learn how to pass on their strength by a sense of expansion, rather than drooping or stiffening, in the hand. Even if you learn to pass on force from the back in slow chords, it won't do any good for trying to play big chords fast. The only way to do that it is to keep active muscular pressures from the arm and back well away. All it needs is a mild sense of leaning in to start with and the rest is all about making room to expand the knuckles up and away from the the piano - rather than squashing down into every separate chord by piling on force and thus stressing the hand more, yet to less effect.

I remember you from both pianoworld and pianostreet. 

@everybody else: I repeat what I said earlier - ask a good teacher these questions instead of relying on internet experts. I simply stated what I learned from a real piano teacher at a real conservatory. Now, you will not gain much from it unless you actually go to a real teacher and get these concepts directly from them.

[liszt85]

I think there are two things that might help you.  The first comes from a former teacher of mine, Evelyne Brancart - on my first lesson, when she was teaching me how to use weight at the keyboard, she told me that one of the fundamental components of piano technique is "the drop."  In describing to me how to do it, she had me raise one hand, and then allow it to fall to my lap, saying "no hope."  After this, she had me transfer the idea to the keyboard with one finger, anywhere on the keyboard.  I believe the idea was that I feel as though my hand would go straight through the keyboard if the keybed did not stop it.  In any case, this came first - letting gravity do all of the work, and knowing how to uses the earth's #1 renewable resource (and it's free!).

The second idea, which builds on the drop, is what Sandor calls "the throw."  It's basically the drop, except using some force from the arms (or, really, the back).  You can try it on the fallboard; on the keys, without regard to accuracy at first; with isolated notes, paying attention to the metacarpal ridge; with chords; with groups of notes; with groups of octaves; etc.

I would encourage you to experiment with these, with and without actual music, because it seems to me that the proper combination of a founded core, the use of gravity, and a healthy participation of the fingers, one can get a rather meaty forte (& fortissimo).

The second idea is what I described in my first post (what Janice Weber taught me). The first idea of the drop is something that I worked on with a teacher in Vienna (Blazenka Arnic). That really freed up my left hand. I used to feel tension in that arm before I spent a month practising the drop with my left arm. I now play absolutely tension-free in my left hand (tension-free in piano language doesn't mean zero tension, FYI because zero tension would mean a collapsed hand, and that isn't what you want to do). I need to do the same work with my right hand now.

So taken together, these are precisely the ideas that I've got from reputable teachers from different parts of the world. Make of it what you will.

[awesom_o]

The secret to fff is not immense hand strength. The secret lies in using your body effectively. I once took a lesson with Janice Weber (BU) who worked with me over half an hour or so to get me to play loud with a good full piano sound. I weigh 220lbs and my hands are pretty strong. However, my fff wasn't great (not loud enough and not sonorous enough). She got me to be aware of my entire body and how it could be coordinated to produce a better sound at the piano. In the case of fff, one important aspect is to be able to use your back muscles as well in the process. It isn't easy to explain, someone needs to show you how to do it. All of these are issues better worked out with a teacher rather than discussed on a forum where you might get a lot of inaccurate information from other amateurs, which is why I've stopped asking for technical advice on forums. So go talk to a teacher if you REALLY want to know how to produce a sonorous fff. 

Perhaps you could demonstrate this lovely, sonorous FFF of yours over in the audition room? 

[nyiregyhazi]

The second idea is what I described in my first post (what Janice Weber taught me). The first idea of the drop is something that I worked on with a teacher in Vienna (Blazenka Arnic). That really freed up my left hand. I used to feel tension in that arm before I spent a month practising the drop with my left arm. I now play absolutely tension-free in my left hand (tension-free in piano language doesn't mean zero tension, FYI because zero tension would mean a collapsed hand, and that isn't what you want to do). I need to do the same work with my right hand now.

So taken together, these are precisely the ideas that I've got from reputable teachers from different parts of the world. Make of it what you will.

The problem is that this mysterious state the hand where the tension is exactly correct doesn't exist. Nothing is perfectly stiff. Even the most rigid hand collapses a little. There is no magic state of tension that is tense enough to withstand incoming force, yet not too tense for comfort. It's far simpler than such fantasy. A hand cannot collapse when it's moving in the opposite direction. Relaxed fingers fold inwards, thus to avoid collapse altogether they must be expanding outwards in the opposite direction. It's really that simple. See the middle of this post (where I compare genuinely free arm drop with wrist droop and an arm drop with the actions that are necessary to land softly into balance, without any bracing, dropping or hard landings):

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/introduction-to-three-core-posts-on.html

I spent years on the dropping and pushing approaches with no real success, until I realised that the hand was the missing link. Teachers spoke only about the arm drop itself but told me nothing about the importance of the simple hand action that is needed to release the arm safely. I could play loud, but I wasn't in proper control and I was causing too much impact. Dropping can be effective but it's the action of the hand that is the common link in all truly versatile techniques. Dropping can add to good hand use but it cannot compensate for a lack of it. Fortissimo is all about knowing how to expand the hand from a free arm.

[faulty_damper]

Dropping is pretty useless as there is no control.
An ff can be executed with the fingers already touching the keys, and the hands seem to explode away.

[nyiregyhazi]

Dropping is pretty useless as there is no control.
An ff can be executed with the fingers already touching the keys, and the hands seem to explode away.

I wouldn't go that far against dropping. It's all down to the hand. If the hands acts right, you can voice plenty due to the varied level of movement in each finger. Rubinstein managed it okay. However, if you do drop like a stone with a merely braced (sadly what most teachers prescribe) hand, it's truly useless for anything other than making a noise.

It's interesting how few living players can actually depend on dropping for FF while maintaining good sound quality. Volodos is one of few. Clearly something has changed in the manner of technique, compared to how the older generation had used the dropping technique. I very rarely hear pianists make really big sounds without percussive thuds, when I see the dropping technique from the current generation. It's small wonder that many associate big movements with a rough sound now, because pianists rarely use their hand well enough.

[faulty_damper]

I haven't analyzed the role of the hand at all.  I just know that I can play loudly without "percussion" very easily without doing any kind of drop and it requires so little energy.  In contrast, the drop takes so much energy that's it's like hitting the gym.

About "percussion" - what does that even mean?  Yes, the tone is harsh but why is it harsh?  Because the voices aren't voiced/balanced?  Similarly, what can ff not be harsh?  Why can it sound happy?

[marik1]

May I suggest, there are numerous different ways to do an effective FF and they all depend on numerous different things.

First, FF is an acoustical phenomenon and very much depends on music texture, voicing, registers, etc. Say, for something like beginning of Beethoven's Hammerklavier, or 2nd movement of Op.101 it is enough to put very little effort for huge sonorities, while something with much "thinner" texture will require completely different approach.
  
Second, as any dynamics, FF can be perceived as such only in a musical context and only in comparison with previous (and following) dynamics. As such, it is not enough to know how to play effective FF, but even more important, how to make effective pp (even more important, how to make effective pppp--next to it a mere MF can be thunderous).

Third, very often FF is not a sheer loudness, but rather function of musical intensity. That is, often a phrase played pp, but with great intensity will 'speak' more than any banging FFF.

Last, not the least, all of the above will greatly depend on the style. Say, FF of Bach, Mozart, Lizst, Chopin, Brahms, Prokofiev, or Rachmaninov, will all be very different not only in musical meaning, but also in physical execution.

To summarize, one really would need to find a good and experienced teacher to help to discover all those numerous ways, possibilities, and executions of really effective fortissimo.

Hope it helps.

Best, M

[awesom_o]

Dropping is pretty useless as there is no control.
An ff can be executed with the fingers already touching the keys, and the hands seem to explode away.

  This is correct! You need to have very developed technique to get to this point, however.

What marik1 mentioned about FF being a function of musical intensity rather than sheer loudness is also an excellent point.

For example, if I pick up an electric guitar and turn the volume on the amp up to 9 and pluck out a few notes, I don't perceive that as FF, even if it is very 'loud'.

[m1469]

What marik1 mentioned (...)

What THEE -one and only- Marik mentioned.

[liszt85]

Perhaps you could demonstrate this lovely, sonorous FFF of yours over in the audition room? 

I'll do one better. Assuming that you trust me when I say that I was taught to use my back and coordinate my entire body to produce a sonorous FFF by Janice Weber, here is a link to her CD of the Liszt Transcendental etudes - she will be able to demonstrate this for you much more convincingly than I will ever be able to do because I only had half an hour with her on this topic and I'm sure I'll need more to perfect it: https://www.janiceweber.com/recordings.html (the 1838 version). Btw,  I have posted recordings of mine in the past in the audition room, none with a fff in it though. Do check them out if you care to if that will give you more confidence that I know what I'm talking about here. 

[liszt85]

The problem is that this mysterious state the hand where the tension is exactly correct doesn't exist. Nothing is perfectly stiff. Even the most rigid hand collapses a little. There is no magic state of tension that is tense enough to withstand incoming force, yet not too tense for comfort. It's far simpler than such fantasy. A hand cannot collapse when it's moving in the opposite direction. Relaxed fingers fold inwards, thus to avoid collapse altogether they must be expanding outwards in the opposite direction. It's really that simple. See the middle of this post (where I compare genuinely free arm drop with wrist droop and an arm drop with the actions that are necessary to land softly into balance, without any bracing, dropping or hard landings):

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/introduction-to-three-core-posts-on.html

I spent years on the dropping and pushing approaches with no real success, until I realised that the hand was the missing link. Teachers spoke only about the arm drop itself but told me nothing about the importance of the simple hand action that is needed to release the arm safely. I could play loud, but I wasn't in proper control and I was causing too much impact. Dropping can be effective but it's the action of the hand that is the common link in all truly versatile techniques. Dropping can add to good hand use but it cannot compensate for a lack of it. Fortissimo is all about knowing how to expand the hand from a free arm.

If you weren't in such a hurry to talk about what you wanted to talk about anyway, you might have noticed that I wasn't talking about dropping as a technique for producing an f or an ff or an fff.. the dropping exercise had to do with teaching the hand what it feels like to be relaxed.

[awesom_o]

the dropping exercise had to do with teaching the hand what it feels like to be relaxed.

As long as this is understood clearly by the student, all is good 

[nyiregyhazi]

If you weren't in such a hurry to talk about what you wanted to talk about anyway, you might have noticed that I wasn't talking about dropping as a technique for producing an f or an ff or an fff.. the dropping exercise had to do with teaching the hand what it feels like to be relaxed.

A relaxed hand gives way and hits a cluster. It doesn't teach relaxation to a high level, but only reduces tension in those who are ultra stiff. It doesn't teach you the action for playing with and without drops, with no fixation, unless you focus on the issue of hand action. If you only want to relax, take a sauna. What matters is relaxation that can be kept in real world playing. , dependence on dropping perpetuates tensions unless you know what else has to come with it to geet beyond the drop. I learned this from personal experience of the limits of dropping. It's easy to learn to drop but not to catch it softly. That is not about the arm. Most of what I learned to drop with no fixation was based on the hand. You cannot go beyond the drop without mega tension unless the drop and brace then relax attitude is thrown out and movement replaces bracing.

Even the flop (where the wrist falls down) doesn't teach good relaxation during key depression . It depends on tension then release. The right hand action eliminates any moment of tightness and replaces it with simple movement.