Ever been angry because classical music and piano are, somewhat, degraded??

[sborovic]

Please tell me! I really get angry when piano is played in some stupid bars/restaurants/hotels... How can those "pianists" (btw, having awful sense for musicality, technique...) do such horrible things?! Also, people do not respect those who listen to the best type of  music, that is classical, but feel sorry for them?!?!?!?!!? All in all, what do you do when people speak of classical music/piano as of something boring, not great, not serious and charlatan thing? This is the problem with any kind of art, though... We all know how actors were expected in the time of Shakespeare.... Why is that type of thinking present to this day (in a form...)? Why do some DISRESPECT art?? Should I feel bad about it? I start to wonder if my views are correct... ( Thanks.

[rc]

Do you mean pianists in bars playing the classics in a restaurant but in a toned down, inadequate way?

My guess is because those places are the most readily accessible audiences and they have it imposed on them to play music as 'sonic wallpaper'...  I'll bet it's also common that people are just trying to make a buck and don't invest the extra energy to make the music more special.  This mediocre attitude is everywhere.

I think most peoples problem with the classics are that they're old, and if they could just get past that they would be able to enjoy it to some capacity, but for many that's a big hurdle.

I get some odd looks for listening to classical music on a construction site, but it's not my problem if some random people have the wrong idea about the music.  Some have asked me "what the hell are you listening to?" so I tell 'em how since starting piano I've really come to dig the classics. Most can at least outwardly respect that...  If they think it's lame, well they're missing out on some good stuff.

[sborovic]

Do you mean pianists in bars playing the classics in a restaurant but in a toned down, inadequate way?

Yes....

I agree to everything you said. So there IS someone respecting these true values! (I was hopeless, it's so hard to find someone except for your piano teacher and other PROFESSORS from the music school)

[rc]

Yeah, few people are able to tell good music when they hear it.  I'll bet a lot have come to think of classical music as wallpaper too, just because it's what they've been exposed too.  Then it's kinda tough when you play your heart out and people don't really understand what went into it...

Here's an interview I read a while back, the website has a lot of interviews that I found inspiring: https://pianoeducation.org/pnokaran.html

For many years, I have played in charity concerts and was Pianist for the Canadian Club in Hamilton. I tried to raise awareness and listeners' music skills among politicians, doctors. I played during lunch and, at first, nobody paid attention to the "background music" Again, slowly but surely, I was trying to educate people there and finally if new people attending lunch talked loud during my performance – the old ones pointed to them and said: "Be quiet – Leon is playing. You’re listening to outstanding performance"

[shortyshort]

I get some odd looks for listening to classical music on a construction site.

Lol. I can imagine. 

I also get some odd looks when stuck in traffic, with Mozart blasting out. 

[piano_ant]

Haha, look up maksim mrvica for the ultimate degradation.

painfully embarassing.......

[thierry13]

Lol. I can imagine. 

I also get some odd looks when stuck in traffic, with Mozart blasting out. 

Hahaha that is SOOO great. More people should do that ... we do not see this kind of thing happen often enough!

[thierry13]

Haha, look up maksim mrvica for the ultimate degradation.

painfully embarassing.......

Haha, I've seend worse ... know of tim hoffman ? 

[piano_ant]

Here's a quick story....

Played in a restaurant for money a couple of weeks ago, Pretty light stuff. mozart, some chopin, satie etc.....

Then I improvised on Rachmanninoff's famous variation NO. 18 from the Rhapsody just to have a little fun...

Resaraunt owner comes up to me and says....

QUOTE HERE MIND YOU

"You sly bastard, you told me you didn't play any show tunes." 

I died a little inside. 

[a-sharp]

Some have asked me "what the hell are you listening to?"

You say, "Hey, it's real music - check it out! Ever heard of it?! Like, where have you been, Dude?!?!?" 

[sborovic]

Here's a quick story....

Played in a restaurant for money a couple of weeks ago, Pretty light stuff. mozart, some chopin, satie etc.....

Then I improvised on Rachmanninoff's famous variation NO. 18 from the Rhapsody just to have a little fun...

Resaraunt owner comes up to me and says....

QUOTE HERE MIND YOU

"You sly bastard, you told me you didn't play any show tunes." 

I died a little inside. 

Well, that's what you get when you let yourself do such things... Money is less important than belief!

[richard black]

Well, does it really degrade the music to play it in a bowdlerised edition in a bar? I don't know....

In the 1930s the composer and conductor Constant Lambert published an essay under the title 'The Appalling Popularity of Music', complaining about exactly what the original poster mentions, including radios and discs blaring away in public places. In the 19th century they had barrel organs - it's hardly a modern phenomenon!

[piano_ant]

Well, that's what you get when you let yourself do such things... Money is less important than belief!

I completely and totally agree with you! Truth be told, the experience was fun, but not worth it because the money was sh*t, and so were the customers and owners. It was a one time thing, and I will never play somewhere in time, i mean Rachmaninoff like that ever again!!!! 

Forgive me Sergie!!!!!! 

[rc]

Lol. I can imagine. 

I also get some odd looks when stuck in traffic, with Mozart blasting out. 

Back in highschool, when a lot of kids were all into their cars and would sit outside blaring whatever tunes were popular at the time (a lot of gangsta rap. anyone remember Poppa Roach?), I was just starting to like classical music and thought it would be funny to come by and drown them all out with Flight of the Valkyries or something

But I had no stereo on wheels

[Petter]

For many years, I have played in charity concerts and was Pianist for the Canadian Club in Hamilton. I tried to raise awareness and listeners' music skills among politicians, doctors. I played during lunch and, at first, nobody paid attention to the "background music" Again, slowly but surely, I was trying to educate people there and finally if new people attending lunch talked loud during my performance – the old ones pointed to them and said: "Be quiet – Leon is playing. You’re listening to outstanding performance"

I think thats the right way to approach it. Note "slowly but surely". This phenomenon works boths ways. Some people (like in this case, academics) are willing to listen if you approach them the right way, it´s harder with kids of course, but if you knock the music they listen to, by venting your superiority complex and whatnot, there´s no chance in hell they will ever listen to you. I think it´s possibly to raise interest for classical and piano to a certain extent within everyone that is genuinly interested in music, may it be rap, jazz, river dance or polka, if you play it smart, compromise a bit with your ideals, and put some effort into it. 

[sborovic]

I think thats the right way to approach it. Note "slowly but surely". This phenomenon works boths ways. Some people (like in this case, academics) are willing to listen if you approach them the right way, it´s harder with kids of course, but if you knock the music they listen to, by venting your superiority complex and whatnot, there´s no chance in hell they will ever listen to you. I think it´s possibly to raise interest for classical and piano to a certain extent within everyone that is genuinly interested in music, may it be rap, jazz, river dance or polka, if you play it smart, compromise a bit with your ideals, and put some effort into it. 

I agree but what's the point of that anyway? I always let people know that classical music exist and I say to them that I can borrow them any CD they want... Still, they have to make the choice by themselves alone!

I really pushed it hard in the past... I wanted to make EVERYONE adore classical music... So, after a series of unsuccessful attempts, I stopped doing it that way. It's better when someone likes it naturally. Everyone is satisfied! 

[oscarr111111]

the best type of  music, that is classical

Elaborate, thanks.

[sborovic]

Elaborate, thanks.

Off topic.

[Kassaa]

Off topic.

No explain why do you think classical is the best? You sound terribly narrow minded.

[sborovic]

No explain why do you think classical is the best? You sound terribly narrow minded.

I do have. If you want to find it out, start a topic "What do you think of classical music and why?" and I'll give you my opinion. Simple!

[indutrial]

Lol. I can imagine. 

I also get some odd looks when stuck in traffic, with Mozart blasting out. 

I hate listening to classical or jazz music when I'm in traffic or anywhere else noisy or uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong, I still do it a lot, but I much prefer to hold off until the environment's a bit more serene. When I have to concentrate on not driving into some other a**hole's SUV, it's harder to concentrate on music that, well, requires concentration and a more-than-averagely involved listener. I even agree with composer Charles Wuorinen, who's leveled criticism at people listening to all kinds of music on Ipods, since the music essentially becomes a soundtrack to one's commute or one's drive. It's nowhere near as satisfying as sitting down at home with the stereo and investing your full attention to the music.

[rc]

Yes I've often noticed that in myself, when I have music on too much it almost desensitizes me to it.  It's not a good habit to cultivate.  Also having music on all the time makes it impossible to hear any sort of internal music.

To me the best time to listen to recordings is when I wake up in the morning, to just lay back and listen a while.  I also like to listen to the ipod when I'm going for a walk among the trees.  Sometimes I'll invent some reason to walk somewhere just so I can stroll and listen to music.

At home I usually don't have any BGM, but I don't mind listening to the radio at work or driving because I never know what interesting discovery might catch my ear.

[sborovic]

I hate listening to classical or jazz music when I'm in traffic or anywhere else noisy or uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong, I still do it a lot, but I much prefer to hold off until the environment's a bit more serene. When I have to concentrate on not driving into some other a**hole's SUV, it's harder to concentrate on music that, well, requires concentration and a more-than-averagely involved listener. I even agree with composer Charles Wuorinen, who's leveled criticism at people listening to all kinds of music on Ipods, since the music essentially becomes a soundtrack to one's commute or one's drive. It's nowhere near as satisfying as sitting down at home with the stereo and investing your full attention to the music.

I think the same! Classical music while driving, can be just a distraction and a big one! It's like being drunk and using your cell phone at the same time while driving So, whenever the house is empty, the organs can be heard (hmm... ).

[shortyshort]

Classical music while driving, can be just a distraction and a big one! It's like being drunk and using your cell phone at the same time while driving

You must have a very low concentration threshold. 

[sborovic]

You must have a very low concentration threshold. 

...or really putting myself to listening to classical music.

[oscarr111111]

I find that classical music can be as forgettable as it is assertive, 2 extremes.  Its either just background texture or you put all your attention into it, I find theres very little middle ground unlike a lot of groove and riff based music which can grab your attention more easily.  Of course there are exceptions to each but thats what I generally find.

[thierry13]

You sound terribly narrow minded.

You sound like someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Being narrow minded would be to say that classical music is the only valid way of expression, or the only whatever what else ... but knowing that it is the greatest music is simply... well, knowing what you're talking about ... <- that was not an anti-jazz post, and didn't make any comparisons between the two genres.

[oscarr111111]

You sound like someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Being narrow minded would be to say that classical music is the only valid way of expression, or the only whatever what else ... but knowing that it is the greatest music is simply... well, knowing what you're talking about ... <- that was not an anti-jazz post, and didn't make any comparisons between the two genres.

You are truly an idiot, and are also a perfect example of why classical music has such a bad reputation nowadays.  Also ironic is the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Do you think that classical composers would have wanted music to stagnate and stop progressing?  No, Bach or Beethoven or Scriabin would have all wanted future musicians to look back and appreciate the music of the past while moving forwards, not for ignorant kids to cop a snobbish attitude and claim that the only music worth anything was written hundreds of years ago and that anything written after that is worthless by default.  I suspect that your bad attitude is more of a defense mechanism for your own musical and personal shortcomings more than anything else though.

Still waiting for someone to give a valid reason WHY they consider classical music to be superior to other forms of music.

[piano_ant]

The problem will always be the media and its catering to the public and money.

 Schumann wasn't heard of and worse, wasn't liked. Other composers of less quality were more famous. Even though a few knew of his genius, he just couldn't become popular.

Today, there are worthwhile artists out there. But they are hard to uncover. The general public has horrible taste in music, But what the general public wants, they get. Always will, always has. To say music has stopped being worthwhile is ignorant. There is just an ever increasing pile of crap and it becomes harder to sift through every day.

The only possible way classical is superior  is because a LARGER percentage of it doesn't sacrifice it's own self proclaimed art for money, fame and shallow purposes. It still does, but not as often.

Most other forms nowadays are more interested in money than artistic purposes. Jazz is an exception. Rock, Pop, Rap, R&B, Techno are almost all about an image or clubbing or money. A Small percentage of them are not, but most are.

This is the only difference. The reason classical earns such respect is because of it constant pursuit of the new and the impossible and the divine.

Again, however, to say classical is superior music is, for the most part, subjective.
 

[oscarr111111]

The problem will always be the media and its catering to the public and money.

 Schumann wasn't heard of and worse, wasn't liked. Other composers of less quality were more famous. Even though a few knew of his genius, he just couldn't become popular.

Today, there are worthwhile artists out there. But they are hard to uncover. The general public has horrible taste in music, But what the general public wants, they get. Always will, always has. To say music has stopped being worthwhile is ignorant. There is just an ever increasing pile of crap and it becomes harder to sift through every day.

The only possible way classical is superior  is because a LARGER percentage of it doesn't sacrifice it's own self proclaimed art for money, fame and shallow purposes. It still does, but not as often.

Most other forms nowadays are more interested in money than artistic purposes. Jazz is an exception. Rock, Pop, Rap, R&B, Techno are almost all about an image or clubbing or money. A Small percentage of them are not, but most are.

This is the only difference. The reason classical earns such respect is because of it constant pursuit of the new and the impossible and the divine.

Again, however, to say classical is superior music is, for the most part, subjective.
 

I generally agree, though I disagree about classical having less poor material released, rock/pop and hip hop only have the worst rubbish/good art ratio because they're the most popular at the moment and thus the most attractive for commercial intents.  Every genre in its prime however has suffered from the same landfill of commercial rubbish, bad music is quickly forgotten though and this is whats happened to classical and jazz, the great music has been remembered and and poor has fallen from view, it will be the same for rock/pop and hip hop in the future when whatever the latest trend is then is in fashion.  I think the fact that nowadays its much easier to get media to the masses means that exposure to commercial music is at an all time high and this can be misleading, there is as much good modern music around now (if not more, due to the increased means of making it) as there ever was, you just have to look harder for it.

[sborovic]

You are truly an idiot, and are also a perfect example of why classical music has such a bad reputation nowadays.  Also ironic is the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Hm, although I know that this was not directed to me, I have say something about this type of behavior. First of all, by saying that thierry is and idiot, you want to point out that you are NOT (it isn't logical for and IDIOT to call others idiots...). Who are you to have RIGHT to say to someone that he/she is an idiot? Who are you to claim that you are not? FACT: People who DO NOT know how to make a point by using VALID LOGICAL REASONS, and attempt to do so by insulting other people are _unconditionally_ stupid (or idiots themselves, so that you understand...).

FACT 2: This post is a direct insult

You are truly an idiot, and are also a perfect example of why classical music has such a bad reputation nowadays.  Also ironic is the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Now, think about it!

[oscarr111111]

Hm, although I know that this was not directed to me, I have say something about this type of behavior. First of all, by saying that thierry is and idiot, you want to point out that you are NOT (it isn't logical for and IDIOT to call others idiots...). Who are you to have RIGHT to say to someone that he/she is an idiot? Who are you to claim that you are not?

Reasons off the top of my head why I consider him an idiot:
Can't tell the difference between fact an opinion
Childish immature opinions
Ignorant
Forces his 'opinions' onto others at every opportunity
Constantly posts provocative posts
Doesn't back anything up with facts or 'valid logical reasons', just repeats his childish mantras

And as far as your 'you have to provide evidence you're not an idiot first' thing.. the world doesn't work like that, you are perceived subjectively by every single person (hey, just like music huh!), so consider me an idiot if you want by all means, thats your opinion.

FACT: People who DO NOT know how to make a point by using VALID LOGICAL REASONS, and attempt to do so by insulting other people are _unconditionally_ stupid (or idiots themselves, so that you understand...).

Then post the valid logical reasons for your opinions which you seem to have mistaken for facts that you failed to include in your original post and when asked for later.

FACT 2: This post is a direct insult
Now, think about it!

So was that one.
Now, think about it!

Anyway this is ridiculous, I'm not posting any more responses to this tangent.

[arensky]

I have been playing ambient piano music professionally for many years, in addition to my work as a solo and collaborative pianist and pit orchestra leader. My initial reaction to the original poster's comments about "degradation" made me wonder where he has been listening to such performances. I think it's important to realize that the dynamic of playing background music is very different from playing in a recital situation. In a lounge or restaurant the main attraction is the food and drink and the music is "wallpaper" to a certain degree but live piano music in any room is immediately noticeable, and lends an air of sophistication or artiness to the establishment.

Part of sborovic's negative impression of ambient pianists probably has to do with their background. Classical pianists are trained to perform in concerts and our experiences performing are at recitals where the audience is (we hope) quiet and attentive. This conditions classical pianists to silence as the background to their playing. In a restaurant or bar this is never the case, even when the people are there for the music (a bar or club, usually) or are merely paying attention to the music; dishes drop, glasses clink and there is conversation. This is unsettling and distracting for a musician who has been conditioned to silence in the background. There is also the problem of memory; I prefer to play jazz or pop tunes in these situations since I improvise those interpretations on the spot and the stream of conciousness involved in that process eliminates or absorbs the white noise of the establishment. In contrast, playing classical music in this setting is often maddening; one's concentration is interrupted constantly by each little sound, which become deafening as one tries to focus on playing a well known classic correctly. Playing back an exact pattern and improvising a spontaneous one are two very different skills and most classical pianists are not as proficient at the latter one. Perhaps this is what sborovic has heard, mistakes from distracted pianists struggling to focus their attention on the music.

Or maybe he has just been unlucky enough to have only heard bad pianists, which abound in wallpaper as well as concert music!  And yes, bad professional playing makes me angry when I hear it. Not only does it lower our art, but someone good ( like me    ) could be making that money 

Recently I changed my format for my regular ambient gig. I play four hours on Sunday, 10AM-2PM for brunch at a hotel. I generally play jazz or "pop" but always have an a notebook of classical pieces for when they are requested. Anyway about two months ago a customer asked me to play all the Chopin I could, so I obliged. The torrent of money that rained down from everyone in the place was impressive, as well as the attention from the diners. I've been repeating this format (big chunks of classical, then back to "normal") for about two months and have found that the white noise is less distracting than it used to be and that customer satisfaction is up, if the amount of money I make in tips is a good gauge (of course it is). Formerly I balked at playing classics in these situations but why? I don't suck and the people like it; what's the big deal? Seems I was conditioned not to play good music in "cheap" or "lesser" venues than a formal recital. I think that the recital format is preferable for classical music but if there is no "degradation" involved (all you have to do is play well) is any harm to our tradition done? I wonder what the rest of you think...

[db05]

Degraded? Disrespect? 

Here, simply playing the classical piano is a privilege. A rich kid thing, even. And formally educated musicians are rare. You hear bad pianists, your lucky you even hear pianists at all!

Piano is overrated. Classical is underplayed. It's that simple, imo.

[lostinidlewonder]

Please tell me! I really get angry when piano is played in some stupid bars/restaurants/hotels... How can those "pianists" (btw, having awful sense for musicality, technique...) do such horrible things?!

The thing about these type of performers is that people who are dining or drinking are not really there to listen to the piano music. It is background music and shouldn't be played to interrupt people from their reason for being there. I am very surprised if they play classical music because often in bars/restaurants/hotels they play more modern "cocktail longue" repertoire. Whatever they play should not interrupt conversation, so playing too well might in fact distract everyone from the reason for being there. I've been to nice piano longues where the pianist is brought more to the forefront of the dining experience, but not all places are like this. Also getting paid say $200 a session for playing 50 pieces does not feel like you get bang for your buck, so why play everything at top quality when you only get paid a few bucks a piece.

[mattgreenecomposer]

The other day I went to Chick fil A and had Brahms symphony #3 Blaring out of my car....you could hear it across the parking lot.
The guy taking my order had to be like what.

[learner of liszt]

Someone earlier in the topic mentioned Maksim as the ultimate degradation.  Ever heard of Richard Kastle?

Anyways, I have a little story to tell:

Once, I was in school and our music teacher was talking about classical music, composers, etc. After the class, this one kid said that classical music was boring, stupid, blah blah blah, the usual. Then he said a completely new one: It's pointless. It might as well not exist.  So after I counted to ten to keep myself from killing him, I said, "You know, without classical music, you wouldn't have any rap, pop, or rock. It was classical music that led to the development of modern music. And it takes a whole lot more talent to play classical music than pop. Ever heard of Rachmaninoff?" And then the stupid kid said, "Who's that, some retard?"

I cried a little on the inside that day.

[db05]

Once, I was in school and our music teacher was talking about classical music, composers, etc. After the class, this one kid said that classical music was boring, stupid, blah blah blah, the usual. Then he said a completely new one: It's pointless. It might as well not exist.  So after I counted to ten to keep myself from killing him, I said, "You know, without classical music, you wouldn't have any rap, pop, or rock. It was classical music that led to the development of modern music. And it takes a whole lot more talent to play classical music than pop.

That reminds me of my guitar teacher. He's a great teacher, imo, but he doesn't like classical because it's predictable and there's nothing new about it. (That's the impression I get - but maybe he hasn't heard the more modern classical yet.) On the other hand, my other teachers are fans of classical. So opinions differ... Think about it for yourself...

It's true, it takes more talent to play classical, but is music all about technique and hitting all the notes? My guitar teacher is very keen about this. Anyone can read, even memorize a little piece given enough time. But how many can play this beautifully? I don't know about your experience, but classical teachers tend to skip that part of learning and go to a new piece. And another, and another until you find yourself playing a dozen pieces not too well. The pieces you play might not be to your liking. What if you don't like Hanon, Czerny or Bach? Whatever... I'm rambling now. I find classical music beautiful, no matter what teacher says. But it's true that the system of teaching can use some improvement.

[rc]

But it's true that the system of teaching can use some improvement.

The closest thing I've seen to a standard system is the graded exams, which is a compromise like any standardized system.  I'm not too keen on 'em, but it's the best they can do.

Otherwise, it seems like the wild west to me.  Every teacher has their own way of doing things, there are no certain remedies.  But, when I think further, it couldn't be any other way.  Because art is so huge, there is no one destination - there can't be one system.  It has to be flexible, and each student should have a certain self-discovery in choosing their direction.  The teacher is like a senior colleague, and the student is trying to learn to do what inspires them (what the teacher knows how to do).

[arensky]

The closest thing I've seen to a standard system is the graded exams, which is a compromise like any standardized system.  I'm not too keen on 'em, but it's the best they can do.

Yes, and that's why...

  Every teacher has their own way of doing things, there are no certain remedies.  But, when I think further, it couldn't be any other way.  Because art is so huge, there is no one destination - there can't be one system.  It has to be flexible, and each student should have a certain self-discovery in choosing their direction.  The teacher is like a senior colleague, and the student is trying to learn to do what inspires them (what the teacher knows how to do).

You're dead on here. This is one of the best summations of what teaching should be that I have ever read. 

[etcetra]

It sounds like a waste of time to be bothered by such petty things as piano players in a bar or hotel, the are not playing music for people like you in the first place.  If you want to be inspired and be around people who appreciates art you go to see recitals or you go to museum. It's just best not to be bother by them, i mean what is the benefit of being angry over such things?  After all it's their life, what right do you have to say what they should or should not have, and why does that even matter to you?

There are people out there who gets angry about how little modern poetry is appreciated, and wonder why more people are not reading Robert Pinsky or Adrienne Rich.  I am sure a lot of film enthusiasts will tell me how great   "Citizen Kane" is but I don't really care for it that much.  Like you said, it happens in all the arts, and I am sure there are others who complain about people like you or me, because we don't have the capacity to understand the things they find great in their lives.

Not all music have to be "great".. There are people who play crappy music and piano but at least they enjoy it while doing so, just like not all atheletes have to be competing at an Olympic level.  Music has many purposes for different situations.

Its better to just be thankful for the fact that you have been blessed with the gift of classical music and the capacity to understand it, and maybe share your blessing and insights to others who are willing to appreciate it as you do. 

[rc]

You're dead on here. This is one of the best summations of what teaching should be that I have ever read. 

 

Thank you.  I stole the idea of 'senior colleague' from an essay I'd read somewhere

[healdie]

I think most peoples problem with the classics are that they're old

could be right i remember asking one person wheather they liked classical music and their response was "well its for old people innit"

[sborovic]

It sounds like a waste of time to be bothered by such petty things as piano players in a bar or hotel, the are not playing music for people like you in the first place.  If you want to be inspired and be around people who appreciates art you go to see recitals or you go to museum. It's just best not to be bother by them, i mean what is the benefit of being angry over such things?  After all it's their life, what right do you have to say what they should or should not have, and why does that even matter to you?

There are people out there who gets angry about how little modern poetry is appreciated, and wonder why more people are not reading Robert Pinsky or Adrienne Rich.  I am sure a lot of film enthusiasts will tell me how great   "Citizen Kane" is but I don't really care for it that much.  Like you said, it happens in all the arts, and I am sure there are others who complain about people like you or me, because we don't have the capacity to understand the things they find great in their lives.

Not all music have to be "great".. There are people who play crappy music and piano but at least they enjoy it while doing so, just like not all atheletes have to be competing at an Olympic level.  Music has many purposes for different situations.

Its better to just be thankful for the fact that you have been blessed with the gift of classical music and the capacity to understand it, and maybe share your blessing and insights to others who are willing to appreciate it as you do. 

Well, you've got the point there. Even the great art of music must suffer from being used for "other purposes". There is no space to agree or disagree, it's reality. Thank you for you extremely bright and intelligent response, it really helped me understand/admit how some things function. Elitism is everywhere!

P.S. And do you know that the most of the people don't even know who's Bach, Haydn, Czerny, Beethoven and Mozart!!! I was in England for two weeks (got back today) and I did a little survey. I was completely confused! Out of 20 people I asked, 19 have never EVER heard of them! EVER! And when I asked them how is it possible, they told me they don't need to know such things. It is not required for their jobs (most of them were adults). Now, THAT"S a degradation of education. Well, it has to be accepted as existent at least. Although I'll never consider it normal.

P.P.S. The same people never heard of Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Balzak, Hugo, Cervantes or Tolstoy either!

[etcetra]

sborovic,

I can totally understand your point, I do have problem relating to the general public since my interests are so different.. Most people seem to have more knowledge about celebrities and pop stars than they do about Dostoyevsky or Messien.. sometimes I feel like I live in a different planet than others.  I used to wonder about why someone like Britney Spears took front page of the news and yet when a Nobel-Prize winning scientist dies you find their articles on obscure section of the newspaper, but thats just how the world goes nowdays.

Having said that I try to be more understanding of those kind of people, and realize that I have been blessed with knowledge of these things.. I remember when I was younger I was very moved by some of Glenn Gould's recording and I did what I can to find his interviews, I was amazed at his intellegence, but how many 18 yrs olds do that?

You are right it all comes down to education, but thats the difficult part, most people I know are not blessed with descent education, and even for me it took a long time before i was able to appreciate music & start the piano because there was very little music in my family.

I also put in consideration the fact that education nowdays is so different, it works more like an assembly line than "education".. by that i mean youre just running whole bunch of tests in order to pass and get certified..I remember how some of my professors used to pay $50 for an entire semester of tuition 40 years ago and how they were able to actually live on what they made on student teaching... I know a friend of mine who was student teaching and he was getting $200 a month.. most students are struggling much harder just to stay in school. It's no wonder they have less interest in the arts.

So I don't know if theres is anything that could change that, I do wish that the world were more "educated" in that sense..Ever since I moved back to my country, I do wish i had more friends who were more litearate and would go to museums and recitals but I don't.  All I can do is appriciate the fact that there are brilliant people out there, its just that they are scattered and you have to look for them.

[rc]

Well, for all the composers and authors I can name, I can't name a single great architect, don't know much about painters, haven't the first clue about sports, my geography is embarassing, I couldn't tell you the name of any of the plants that grow in my area...  On and on.

Sitting in a room of sports fans, I must seem quite backwards to them! "Does this guy seriously not know what the teams are?"

If I didn't get into piano, I doubt I would know the name Czerny or Scarlatti, Bach would be a name I'd heard somewhere and I might think Mozart wrote Fur Elise.  If I didn't play piano, this would all be just trivia to me - neat little facts that I will probably never use.

I've always thought education can be very cheap, a library card costs $10/year where I live.  They've got whatever I could want to satisfy my curiousity.

[communist]

Someone earlier in the topic mentioned Maksim as the ultimate degradation.  Ever heard of Richard Kastle?

Anyways, I have a little story to tell:

Once, I was in school and our music teacher was talking about classical music, composers, etc. After the class, this one kid said that classical music was boring, stupid, blah blah blah, the usual. Then he said a completely new one: It's pointless. It might as well not exist.  So after I counted to ten to keep myself from killing him, I said, "You know, without classical music, you wouldn't have any rap, pop, or rock. It was classical music that led to the development of modern music. And it takes a whole lot more talent to play classical music than pop. Ever heard of Rachmaninoff?" And then the stupid kid said, "Who's that, some retard?"

I cried a little on the inside that day.

i have heard of richard kastle 

[healdie]

Sitting in a room of sports fans, I must seem quite backwards to them! "Does this guy seriously not know what the teams are?"

If I didn't get into piano, I doubt I would know the name Czerny or Scarlatti, Bach would be a name I'd heard somewhere and I might think Mozart wrote Fur Elise.  If I didn't play piano, this would all be just trivia to me - neat little facts that I will probably never use.

This is true, I suppose as a breed we do think it strange that people know nothing of Beethoven etc but I am on a popular music course at college and most people on there now know about Wagner, Shsotakovich, Brahms and in return i now know a little about bands like the Jam and the Clash i must have seemed pretty alien to them

also i don't find the toned down versions of classics degrading because it makes it accesible to people did anyone in Britain watch the Maestro program? well yes it may have been reality television but alot of people have come up to me since and said they are now listening to and enjoying classical music 

surely this is better than only having a elitist group of intellects who appreciate it?

[communist]

i hate when people think all classical music is like Mozart jupiter symphony

[csharp_minor]

I even agree with composer Charles Wuorinen, who's leveled criticism at people listening to all kinds of music on Ipods, since the music essentially becomes a soundtrack to one's commute or one's drive. It's nowhere near as satisfying as sitting down at home with the stereo and investing your full attention to the music.

Wow theres some intresting discussions on in this forum! but they are a bit of a warzone at times!

Yeah I definitely agree with that! I can't see how people can enjoy their music as much when they are doing something else. I can't see how you can read a book on the noisy tube trains and listen to music at the same time, you can only do one or the other properly, or the music just becomes background music .

I like to dedicate my full attention to listening to music, by lying down with my earphones on, preferably listening to Beethoven or Chopin, I could just die!