Why is that piece in Eb major ?

[drooxy]

Hello all,

A (stupid ?) question that I finally dare to ask  

What are the reasons that justify a choice of key for a given piece ?

For instance, why is the nocturne n°2 opus 9 from Chopin written in Eb Major (that example because I'm presently working on it !) ? Why not in F Major, in B major, etc.

I kind of understand the quality choice (major) since it is very linked to the melody, but choosing another key is just switching the same melody and chord progressions... only "absolute ear" can notice the difference !

Is the fingering a possible reason ? (doubt it...  :-/ )

Thanks in advance for your help !

Cordially,
Drooxy

[faulty_damper]

Because different keys have different 'characters'.  Play the scales in Eb major and then play a different key, like G major.  Notice how it sounds different?

Now go ahead and play the Nocturne in G major instead of Eb major.  Hear the difference?  Or play it as a minor key.  They will all sound differently.  Chopin chose the key best suited to the 'character' he wanted the piece to be.

[drooxy]

Thanks faulty_Damper for your answer but I am not convainced:

If I do not listen to that piece for a while and hear it played in - say - E Major... I am not sure I would notice...

Again, I do not have an absolute ear... but isn't all a matter of intervals of notes with each others and with the tonic ?

In other words, if you switch all notes of any piece, for example, up half a tone... how could a non-absolute ear notice that "slight change" ?

With no reference, I think I would not be able to tell the tonic of a scale that I hear... Now, I am not saying that my ear does not need some exercise !!!  

Thanks !

[monk]

"Why has Rembrandt painted this corner of his picture in this hue of dark brown with a greenish underpinning? Why didn't he paint it in a bit lighter brown, with just a tad less green?

I wouldn't notice it!"

Yes, you wouldn't notice it, because you don't have a fine enough eye yet. And not a fine enough - dare I say - taste. Because it's a matter of a gourmet-like taste which colour (key) a great painter (composer) choses!

Some people go into gourmet restaurants and say after the meal: "Well, rather good, but the chicken by my mother last week was equally delicious." Not their fault! But their discrimination abilities are just not on the level of a gourmet. (But honestly, sometimes less discrimination ability makes life easier...)

Best Wishes,
Monk

[drooxy]

Monk,

Thanks ! Your answer does make sense.

But if I show you a grey today and a very slightly lighter grey tomorrow, are you sure you will tell that they are different ?

If yes, you have an absolute eye... (not sure that exists...   )

Honestly, would you recognize a scale played in C on a monday morning from a scale played in B on the next monday without listening any music between ?

If yes, you have an absolute ear... in that case, you have a great gift and I cannot argue ! You must hear sounds very differently from the way I do... much more accurately and your musical taste is obviously deeper.

Finally, these are the questions: to really appreciate music, do you have to have an absolute ear ? And what if you don't ?

Please, tell me if I am on a very wrong track !!!!

Sincerely !

[monk]

I myself have no absolute ear, and most probably I wouldn't notice if the nocturne is played a semitone higher.

But I'm not the criterion. The criterion is Chopin, who most probably HAD a very fine ear - and so it has a reason that the piece is in Eb.

And there are of course many good musicians who have absolute ear or at least hear the difference.

It's also important to know that the perceived difference is also dependent on other factors than only pitch:

- the piano. Low notes sound muddier on little uprights than on big grands.
- the sound of the piano: A "muddy" piano with less overtones tends to sound "lower" than a hard-sounding piano.
- the tuning of the piano: High-tuned pianos (e.g. A=445 HZ) really sound more brilliant and also "higher", although the difference to the A=440 HZ is only 5 HZ!

The pianos in Chopin's time were different than today; today Chopin probably would have written some pieces in other keys.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[drooxy]

The criterion is Chopin, who most probably HAD a very fine ear - and so it has a reason that the piece is in Eb."

Yes, got it. As Rembrandt did not see light like us, Chopin did not hear sound like us. It really makes sense.

So, are we condamned to love what they did without being able to understand why they did it that way ? Why did they use that color/key,... ? Just because our perception of light/sound is very limited ?

Poor us...  

I go to bed... It is enough frustration for today !

Thanks for that discussion, Monk.

Sincerely

[ted]

There is also the possibility that the composer has not thought at all about the key of his piece as such - I don't - they just seem to form themselves in a particular position for a variety of unconscious reasons and that's it. I don't consciously ask myself which position might be best.

I refer only to piano solos here, not to piano writing involving other instruments or voice, which may well imply consideration of pitch, peculiarity of instrument and so on.

After reading this question I had a little census of the pile of my own pieces (the more or less tonal ones) and found a pretty even spread of keys, with a slight bias toward those involving many black notes. When improvising I use all positions freely. As most of my pieces arise from improvisation, I guess that's the reason for the equal key distribution.

I know very few musicians personally so I am not qualified to speak for others.

[bernhard]

There are several reasons why a composer may choose a specific key for his piece:

1.      As mentioned before, the composer may “hear it in his mind” in that particular key.

2.      The configuration of black and white keys may feel most comfortable at certain keys (I believe this may be the reason why so many Romantic pieces are written in accidental rich keys like B major, Db major, Gb major and so on: these scales fit the hand the best).

3.      However if the piece was composed in the 19th century or before, there is a very good chance that the choice was guided by the theory of affects. This theory – which was at its most popular during the Baroque – stated that each key was related to a certain emotion, or “affect”. So a Baroque composer would first of all decide on the emotion he wanted to express/elicit with his piece. Then, based on this decision he would determine the key most appropriate, as well as a rhythm pattern and a melodic motif. From there it was all pretty much formulaic. Here are the affects for Eb major (according to four different authors):

a. Cruel, rough. (M. A. Charpentier – 1690)
b. Pathetic, serious, complaining, the arch-enemy of honesty. (J. Matheson – 1713)
c. Love, sad dialogue with God, the three accidentals refer to the Holy Trinity. (Ch. Fr. D. Schubart – 1739 – 1791)
d. A special quality of light and shade, found in moods of of mingled reverence and elation. (Robert Schumann – 1810 – 1856).

In the particular case of Chopin, I tend to believe that he did not pay much attention to the theory of affects. But it was pretty much taken for granted amongst musicians, and Schumann (who was his contemporary) certainly wrote a great deal about it. So he certainly was aware of it. Beethoven on the other hand certainly used it when choosing keys for his compositions. And knowledge of the theory is mandatory for anyone interested in the correct interpretation of early Classical and Baroque music.

And by the way, pitch has risen almost a semitone since Baroque times. So Bach's Prelude in C major would have to be played in B major for us to hear it in a modern piano as Bach heard it in his harpsichord.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Antnee]

And by the way, pitch has risen almost a semitone since Baroque times. So Bach's Prelude in C major would have to be played in B major for us to hear it in a modern piano as Bach heard it in his harpsichord.

Why is that??   :-/

[bernhard]

Why is that??   :-/

Pitch naming (up to a point) is a matter of convention. There is no particular reason to associate middle A with 440Hz. At the beginning of the 20th century a bunch of musicians got together and decided that A would be 440 Hz and that was that. Before that there was quite a lot of variation both in regards to time and place. So for instance, Mozart used A = 421.6 HZ; Handel used A = 422.5 Hz, and Bach used A = 415.5 Hz. Concert pitch in Berlin at mid-eigthteenth century was A = 422Hz.

After 1820 concert pitch started to rise (by a decision of the musicians involved)  simply because they wanted to produce a more brilliant sound more appropriate for larger concert halls. In the 19th century it was basically the French musicians who pushed standard pitch ever higher so that their music would sound more brilliant.

In fact, nowadays, most orchestras tune to a pitch that is actually higher than 440 Hz.

If this interests you, have a look at pages 495 - 504 of “The sensations of tone” by Hermann Helmholtz (Dover) where there is a huge table listing all the pitches that have been used (mostly in Europe) from 1361 to 1900.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[glamfolk]

It's a matter of fingering as well as tonality.  

Each player has keys that they enjoy playing in more than others.  Chopin had a great tendency to write in 4 or 5 flats, and Beethoven in 3 flats.  Can we assume that that they had an affinity for these keys to play in, as well?  I think so.   There's a thread here somewhere on this forum about everyone's "favorite" key.  I don't think the great composers were any different than anyone else in this respect, and they certainly wrote what came most naturally to them.

As far as tonality, have you ever heard a classic piece in a different key?  Teaching methods do this constantly (thanks, Alfred's!).  Fur Elise in Em, Pachelbel's canon in C, etc.  It's usually noticeable.  A composer has told me that when he's working on a piece, he'll usually find himself humming the melody around the house, and he'll go to the piano and find that he's been humming it in a different key than he wrote it.  Upon transposing to the new "hummable" key, the piece will usually become much clearer in idea and tone.  Pieces usually "belong" in certain keys, for some reason.

[Herve]

Try to play the Fantasie Impromtu or the minute waltz in the key of C and you'll instantly know the answer to this topic's question.

[goalevan]

Also, would be really boring if every piece was in C Major : )

[reinvent]

Sometimes I hear a song in a specific key - but when I sit down to play it - I play it in a totally different one.  (This is not done on purpose - since the guitarist I play with has already practiced it in a specific key)  So I do have a hard time understanding why each key could be so different, but that's just me.
  I am a lot more comfortable with certain fingerings, and that is why I prefer some pieces over others.  But as far as being able to tell what key it should be in, it seems like they could be in any key and work.  
 We are working with the same structure in a major scale.  I do not have perfect pitch, but I'm pretty close, and I still can't tell why one would be better.....

[allchopin]

Also, would be really boring if every piece was in C Major : )

Tell that to Mozart.

[Motrax]

Pfft, another Mozart basher.  

I've written some (only finished one piece, but have a few more in their skeletal stages) music, and the key always seems natural. My finished piece, a nocturne for violin and piano, just seemed like it should be in Bb minor, so I made it Bb minor. Each key does have a certain character.

From experience, I do indeed notice a change in key. For some reason, Windows Media Player would transpose any mp3 I tried to play on it about 1.5 notes down. It was terribly frustrating, because I really did take notice. Somtimes I wouldn't notice immediately, but it would dawn on me that the piece produced a slightly different effect than it had previously.

[jbmajor]

I guess I don't really have any gripes as to what key a composer wrote a piece in.  For those that do, maybe it would've been better if they wrote in each key and then you would be able to choose which you like best?  
I can understand if it is pop music and your vocal range might not be in the same key as what's written, but I appreciate the piece in the key the composer chose, and don't really think to question it, as it wouldn't sound as authentic if played in a different key.