Snubbed, I say! SNUBBED!

[Essyne]

Yes, I've been snubbed in the PS Chat room! I ask you this : If you take the time and energy to argue *quite rudely* with someone about how hard piano is comparitively to voice, then you'd at least STAY to finish that argument, yes? ESPECIALLY when the other party is a willing and open mind and just wanted a MATURE intellectual discussion?!?! *points vehemently to self* Or, perhaps, would you just LEAVE without giving ANY CIVILISED NOTICE to the person whom you are being so rude to the MINUTE that the only third party in the chat room leaves for about 10 minutes?

Get REAL, dude! BE A GENTLEMAN!! Have some decency! Have some courage to finish what you start!

Furthermore, the entire point is MOOT, because either way, our voices don't mature until we're 30 and we have SOO MUCHH technical training to go through!!! Don't think you're all high and mighty and put yourself up on a pedastel just because you won't see me "playing a Prokofiev Concerto after
practicing 10 hours a day." One day, I WILL do that, but I must work! I get it! You totally admitted to your horrendous phonation of whichever arias! One day you CAN sing them, but you must work! GET. OVER. YOURSELF!

<Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned>.

[thalberg]

I'm sorry dear Essy but that was a tad hard to understand.

All I gleaned (which could be incorrect) was that you are a pianist who believes piano is harder than voice, and you ran into a vocalist who could not hold his ground in an argument.  Well, I have friends who do both piano and voice, and they say emphatically that piano is much harder.

For what it's worth, I think vocalists are the most intolerable people alive.  Want to hear a joke?  Twelve singers and a pianist were crossing a rope-and-wood bridge when the bridge suddenly collapsed.  All thirteen hung from a single rope seven hundred feet above the ground.  The rope slowly began to break.  They agreed it would not hold all of them; one would have to let go.  The pianist said, "The world should not be deprived of your beautiful voices.  A pianist can be replaced, but a singer is one of a kind.  You are all more important than I; I will let go!"  And all the singers applauded and fell to their deaths.  (The pianist climbed to safety.)

[0range]

Originally posted by Bernhard

A pianist and singer are rehearsing "Autumn Leaves" for a concert and the pianist says:
"OK. We will start in G minor and then on the third bar, modulate to B major and go into 5/4. When you get to the bridge, modulate back down to F# minor and alternate a 4/4 bar with a 7/4 bar. On the last A section go into double time and slowly modulate back to G minor."
The singer says:
"Wow, I don't think I can remember all of that."
The pianist says:
"Well, that's what you did last time."

 

[term]

relax. It's common in inet chatting to leave whenever one wants, to withdraw from a discussion, to say nothing or to say bullshit and still have the protection of an anonymous nickname, i.e. still be intangible. That is impossible in real life, where the presence of a person would command slightly more respect. Since that physical level of communication is completely missing here, don't be surprised that some forget personality, manners and even morality since there's no fear for consequences.

[pianochick93]

I'm with Essy, I think it's extremely rude to just leave like that, without any notice.
I could understand it if it was just chat being buggy, but to leave for 10 minutes...I'd be pretty pissed off.

[pianolearner]

relax. It's common in inet chatting to leave whenever one wants, to withdraw from a discussion, to say nothing or to say bullshit and still have the protection of an anonymous nickname, i.e. still be intangible. That is impossible in real life, where the presence of a person would command slightly more respect. Since that physical level of communication is completely missing here, don't be surprised that some forget personality, manners and even morality since there's no fear for consequences.

Shut up!

[pianochick93]

Shut up!

Lol!

[Essyne]

haha - i made no sense last night - really really really exhausted and a bit p.o.'d. . . .

okay -  here's what happened. . . .

I was in the chat with one person. We started talking about pianists not liking vocalists (I asked why (I ran into some really crazy and discriminating pianists my age) and then a 3rd person comes in. The 3rd person is downright degrading toward me, arguing that vocalists have no Talent comparitively and that I couldn't POSSIBLY argue that singing opera takes as much stamina as a piano recital. Naturally, I disagree. I'm far from being either a vocal or a pianistic virtuoso, but I can tell you that BOTH are a lifelong pursuit. They're just so intrinsically different, that this was a moot argument. So, I was being logical and open-minded, while still listening to the other person, expecting a calm, unemotional debate. The person who I was ORIGINALLY talking to had to leave for about 10 minutes, and the SECOND that that person left, the other person (the rude one) spouted out all this close-minded, 100% degrading B.S. (that was completely unprovoked!) and then left the chat. It was like because they didn't have an audience anymore, I wasn't worth anything.

Well, now I know which TYPES of pianists hate vocalists, and, quite frankly, I'm not disappointed (although this particular member's actions were a bit offensive).

[general disarray]

Not just pianists hate vocalists, Essy.

An exasperated Toscanini once stormed up to the great soprano Zinka Milanov in a rehearsal, squeezed her huge, uh, "torpedoes," and sighed, "Ah, if only these were brains!"

On the other hand, we have the late great Anna Moffo, a Curtis grad and Fulbright scholar, who was a beautiful woman, a fantastic singer and a brilliant, well-educated musician. 

[She also was nude in an Italian movie for which La Scala patrons attacked her for by shouting "Nuda! Nuda!" when she came out on stage.]  There is THAT, I suppose. . .   

There's your role model, Essy.  The singer, I mean, not the stripper.

[pianoplayer88]

Well , if pianists hate vocalists then I must hate myself. I take voice and piano lessons.

[Mozartian]

lol Essyne, you remind me of how I was on this forum before I went insane and had an interesting few months of it and then quit it and now am rational enough to be able to visit without getting emotionally involved... (or intellectually involved, not that that's ever been a problem for (almost) anyone here).

but yeah... you're going to get 'snubbed' in the chat, some posters will be jerks and some are cowards when confronted, and stuff like that will happen. just let it roll off yer back and keep on going... trust me it's SO not worth getting worked up about. hahahaaa

oh yeah and if you think male musicians are usually going to be gentlemen...... dear... lol.

[Essyne]

lol - trussttt me, not worked up anymore (when going on 4 hours of sleep in 2 nights, one tends to get a little upset about anything  ). But, yeah, thanks, Mo. . . as for the male musicians . . . ugh . . . IMPOSSIBLE is all I'll say  .

[Mozartian]

But, yeah, thanks, Mo. . . as for the male musicians . . . ugh . . . IMPOSSIBLE is all I'll say  .

tell me about it!

[general disarray]

lol - trussttt me, not worked up anymore (when going on 4 hours of sleep in 2 nights, one tends to get a little upset about anything  ). But, yeah, thanks, Mo. . . as for the male musicians . . . ugh . . . IMPOSSIBLE is all I'll say  .

Ridiculous, Essyne.  We are, at the worst, not "impossible" but really quite feasible.  Lower your expectations.  This is the internet, for goddsakes.  Not the Yale Club.

[Essyne]

Actually, I was not referring to the plethora of male musicians here; rather, I was speaking of the entire male musician population that I'VE personally grown up with. Yes, I'm extremely young, and yes, this is an entirely biased statement, but yes, everyone's entitled to their own biases once in a while. As I've stated before, I enjoy this forum because it sparks intellectual thought (Yale Club or no), and couldn't really care whether you were male or not. A light jest, my friend, nothing more.

[Mozartian]

Ridiculous, Essyne.  We are, at the worst, not "impossible" but really quite feasible.  Lower your expectations.  This is the internet, for goddsakes.  Not the Yale Club.

It's because we've had so many generations of people 'lowering their expectations' that society in general has crumbled and instead of strong reasonable men we have 'guys', instead of true musicians we have the 'moronic tribe of etude players', instead of true leaders we have... well, lets not bring politics into this, shall we?

Wouldn't hurt to start expecting more of ourselves, I'd say.

[rc]

I've never left someone hanging on a debate, but I have been known to argue a point even after it's been shown to be wrong, even after I'm convinced I'm wrong

Eventually the other person leaves, persistence wins the day!

[concerto_love]

Vocalist... I'm a soprano who sing in many concert since I was 7 (I was with my choir in that time..)... I really disagree if a pianist hates a vocalist...!!! >.< My teacher never say that and  he only say, "Hey, I couldn't play if u sing like that!!! Don't improvise by yourself!!" in joke...

Bach and Anna Magdalena was a singer and pianist, am I right? I really forgot...

[dnephi]

I think you deserve it.  I've sung in statewide competitions, and been trained in the Bel Canto method.  I have a range from the E below the Bass clef to the high C.  I sing very well, and my intonation is excellent.  I also have a pure voice, in the sense that there is no vibrato that happens without my choice, which gives me greater control of my singing.

My comment to you in the chat room was so outrageous I assumed you would take it as sarcastic, but I suppose I was wrong.  I have no qualms about my singing voice.

If you want to really know, I didn't say I hated vocalists.  I said that they require comparatively little effort to master their instrument.  That doesn't mean that it's not hard or that it doesn't take a lot of work.  It does, however, mean that it is not nearly the same.  I'm sure you know what comparatively means.  In my experience with accompanying music majors, the voice students tended to be airheads.  Some of them were very nice, serious musicians, but some were, as I said before, lacking in some respects.  I suspect that the reason is that the time commitment and discipline required is not as high as that for the piano or a stringed instrument.

Besides, some of us do other things with our lives.  You just weren't worth my time to argue a point that I thought was so clear.

However, I will say two things:

I'm impressed that you didn't mention me by name.
I'm also surprised by how personally you took my comments.  By all means, sing, but it's not quite apples to apples. 

[tds]

so its been YOU created the scandal. tsk tsk tsk...

heh

[dnephi]

so its been YOU created the scandal. tsk tsk tsk...

heh

I disagree.  I think she created the scandal by making a bit deal out of it.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Daniel

[tds]

I disagree.  I think she created the scandal by making a bit deal out of it.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Daniel

well how about 50-50? or 40-60?

[dnephi]

I'd take 60 40.

[Essyne]

in the sense that there is no vibrato that happens without my choice, which gives me greater control of my singing.

First of all, that's unhealthy, and not technically correct. Lack of vibrato only inhibits your sound because it is a symptom of not letting the breath flow naturally.

If you want to really know, I didn't say I hated vocalists.  I said that they require comparatively little effort to master their instrument. 

I never said that you DID say you hated vocalists. I said that I asked another member *before you entered* why SOME pianists hate vocalists and you got all ticked off and started assaulting my Musicality/the lack of "Effort" that vocalists put in comparitively. Until you aspire to sing Opera professionally, you will never know what kind of Effort one must exert. I, actually, DO want to play Piano professionally SOMETIME in my Life, but I know that it's going to take years and a hell of a lot of exertion - I don't just DISMISS that because I'm a vocalist and think that it's harder than Piano (which, I DO).

I'm sure you know what comparatively means. 

Oh, come off it, Daniel. I may be 17, but I'm no imbicile. Quit being so sanctimonious and pedantic (and I'm SURE that you know what those mean  ).

Besides, some of us do other things with our lives.  You just weren't worth my time to argue a point that I thought was so clear.

Then be man enough to tell me that, Daniel. I hope you aren't this rude and condescending in real life, because it won't get you very far.

I'm impressed that you didn't mention me by name.

It's called class. Believe it or not, I have it. Praise in public, reprimand in Private. However, because you won't ALLOW me to speak to you in Private (apparently I'm not worth the time of day when you lack an audience), I was forced to make this public to get my Feelings across.

I'm also surprised by how personally you took my comments. By all means, sing, but it's not quite apples to apples.

Do you have to be so close-minded? REALLY? Daniel, of course it's not "apples to apples;" it's a different bloody art form! However, for you to say that voice takes little or no work comparitively is a bunch of hogwash. Your voice fluxuates from day to day. Singing a C one day is not singing the same C the next day. You are constantly making adjustments. The reason that I took your comment personally is because it's a very PERSONAL art form, and one must truly know one's Self to be a good Singer. Our instrument is in our throat, for goddsakes! It is a part of our Core, a part of our Being.

Believe it or not, a good vocalist will practice just as many hours as a good pianist. She/He just can't  VOCALISE or physically PHONATE for 12 hours a day, because His/Her instrument can't handle that. It's not comprised of wood/metal. She/HE must study scores/whatever. You are simply uneducated about proper singing, which is okay!

I didn't take your comment "personally," Daniel, but I DID take your behavior personally. You were rude and condescending, and (I don't care what you say to deny it) it wasn't sarcasm. Had you been open and willing to accept different ideas, then there would have been no problem, and you might have come away with new knowledge/a new appreciation for something that you didn't know. I'm not an impossible witch, but I do get a tad bit offended when one just walks out after making all of one's OWN statements without giving others a chance to speak. Just because you're in a chat room doesn't mean that you can abandon all of your Morals and Principals that I KNOW that you have.

As for this 60-40 business. . . ugh - *Mozartian - lol* IMPOSSIBLE!  .

[Petter]

the plot thickens..........

[general disarray]

the plot thickens..........

So does phlegm, but, then I'm not a singer.

[Essyne]

 .  .

[general disarray]

 

[Essyne]

mmmhmmm.

[general disarray]

I heard that. 

And my comment was misinterpreted by you.  I was simply blotting my excess of sunscreen chapstick.

Women.  So cynical.

[Essyne]

Fatalism at her finest. . . .

[thalbergmad]

Welcome to teenageangstfiles.

[Essyne]

Bite me  .

[thalbergmad]

I may be 17, but I'm no imbicile.

True, but you are showing some promise.

Thal

[Petter]

True, but you are showing some promise.

Thal

stop the snubbing

[thalbergmad]

I was going to offer her some lessons.

Thal

[dnephi]

I'm a real cynic and I'm usually pretty nice to people, but I am anally retentive when it comes to things being correct.  This often leads to stepping on people's toes, but the people who know in real life know that I'm good-natured, and are often kind enough to return the favor. 

Now, I understand that I was quite impolite, and for that I apologize. However, I was being honest, and I also think I was right.  I am often blunt in cases where I think that there is little uncertainty.  I have little patience for people who question things that are obvious.

And, if you want to discuss the physical nature of singing:

Why do boy sopranos lack a vibrato?  Are they all singing incorrectly?  I have been told by qualified professionals that my mechanism is appropriate. 
When I vocalize, if I have not had milk products in the past 24 hours, I can usually sing up to a C.  You're right, it changes, but it's not stochastic: it's related to what you've been doing with it. 
You also have rehearsals with your accompanist, and that takes your time.  From my end of things, your rehearsals take our time as well.
I'm sure that you do study your scores away from singing, but do you know of pianists who do not do the same thing in addition to study at the piano?  As I said before, it certainly is work, and more than most people think, but it is not the same.  Granted, a lazy piano major might do less work than a hardworking voice major, but again, it's not apples to apples.

Am I too nitpicky if I point out that imbecile is spelled with 2 e's?  Once again, I apologize.

Worth my time?  This argument isn't worth my time.  Your attack on "that terrible person" was, however. 
[/RANT]

Look, I know it's hard.  I know it's a lot of work.  And I know that singers are tired of being treated as if they're not serious musicians, which they can be.  There are people in every discipline who are airheads, and, unfortunately for people like you, there are a disproportionate number of them in vocalists.  I think that musically, it is a more daunting task to consider expression in singing because there are so many dimensions that do not concern the pianist.  And I would give my left foot to sing the closing aria of Isolde Liebestod (Maybe not...  maybe... have a crippled left leg?), which someday I expect you may do.  Alas, my falsetto is a couple notes short (Itried once ). 

I got too focused about being right instead of focusing on being nice.  And that's just not right, as ironic as it is.

Daniel

[Essyne]

I was going to offer her some lessons.

Thal

In what area, dare I ask, would you be offering me lessons in? Biting?. . . Snubbing?. . . Being an imbicile?. . . I must profess that if I require tutelage in any of the forementioned areas, Thal, then I will indeed seek you out in England, for I certainly could not deny myself the pleasure of studying under a Master such as yourself. . .  .

[Essyne]

Am I too nitpicky if I point out that imbecile is spelled with 2 e's?  Once again, I apologize.

Yes, you are. And don't apologize; when you apologize, you go from just being blunt and rude to being blunt, rude, and passive-agressive - even if it IS a sarcastic apology.

Worth my time? This argument isn't worth my time. Your attack on "that terrible person" was, however.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here - IF you're, by some chance, saying that I attacked your Character, read the second to the last sentence of my previous address to you. . . I said that I knew that you had Morals and Principals. I'm not taking this personally anymore, because, quite frankly, I'm over THAT aspect of it; I'm just saying that maybe you could be a little more open-minded next time. I'm one of those who gets mad for about an hour then doesn't care anymore and starts over w/ the person. . . sometimes to my own demise.

I have been told by qualified professionals that my mechanism is appropriate.

Your physical vocal mechanism may be apt, but, without a vibrato, you're only going to hurt yourself in the long run. But there are different "theories" about this. Just like some people swear by Hanon and others abhor it. Either way, one can't argue that one was "correct" and "right" when one gets nodes. . . .

This often leads to stepping on people's toes, but the people who know in real life know that I'm good-natured, and are often kind enough to return the favor.

Daniel - that's the problem with the internet - the slightest thing can be misconstrued (if there's one thing I've learned from lucyluce, it's USE. EMOTICONS, they help get your feelings across even if there IS a fake lang. barrier    ), so just be good-natured to everyone and make little concessions that you wouldn't make in real life when being sarcastic. Or just be like certain members and be sarcastic all the time.

You also have rehearsals with your accompanist, and that takes your time. From my end of things, your rehearsals take our time as well.

I never denied this, Daniel. That's the problem with leaving. chat. before. you. give. others. a. chance. to. speak.! I actually said that the point was moot because Piano and Voice are two entirely different art forms - I've actually said it a couple of times in this very thread.

Essentially, I'm finished with everything that I have to say about this particular subject. I'm listening to any further comments that you have, but besides that. . . I'm not offended, so I'm leaving it.

[dnephi]

My apologies weren't sarcastic.  It's just that I have to point out spelling errors- it's nothing personal.  I do it to everyone.  I'll try to do better.  The first half of my last post was a logical response to everything you had to say, and the second was the apology and attempt to make reconciliation.  Hence the apparent passive-aggressive.  I actually try to temper my criticisms with nicer phrases so that it doesn't come out so personal.

With regard to smilies: ::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D ::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D ::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D ::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
What's my charge, tds?  1200$?

[general disarray]

Okay, Essy.  Forgiveness time.  Daniel has apologized like the gentleman and scholar that he is.  Time to accept, graciously, like the lady and artist that you are.

If you don't make nice now, we'll think you're the daughter of pianistimo come back to seek revenge.

Omigod!     Is it possible . . . can it be true?  Could you actually be SHE?  (shudders and searches the boat for hard, numbing drugs . . . )

[Essyne]

I'm one of those who gets mad for about an hour then doesn't care anymore and starts over w/ the person. . .

 .

Oh, and general - I'm not Christian  .

[tds]

What's my charge, tds?  1200$?

almost. 1150$. the prok pictures do bring the cost up, while ur lack of caps save u 50 bucks.

[tds]

Okay, Essy.  Forgiveness time.  Daniel has apologized like the gentleman and scholar that he is.  Time to accept, graciously, like the lady and artist that you are.

seconded

[ahinton]

a fake lang. barrier

Whatever one of these may be, the prospect of two such might arguably be seen as less than welcome...

Best,

Alistair