favorite ultramodernism thread.

[ahinton]

Reminds me of hamelins triple etude, who picked up godowsky's idea of a combination of afaik three chopin studies?
Anyway, not exactly my taste, but i guess well done in its kind. Nice : o)

If you read post #92 in this thread, you will discover the connections between these two studies...

Best,

Alistair

[michel dvorsky]

Hamelin's triple etude is not without skill - it manages to express the simplest ideas with the greatest difficulty.

[ahinton]

Hamelin's triple etude is not without skill - it manages to express the simplest ideas with the greatest difficulty.

I would hardly say that the ideas in Chopin's three A minor studies are "the simplest"! (but then perhaps that is not quite what you meant)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I hope that I can feel relieved at having saved you this expense but we all still await from you the specific details of time and place of this forthcoming event...

Well, i have only sold 1 ticket so far and that was to someone who thought it was bingo night.

Anyway, it will be an open air concert so i have no idea who the Licensee is. God?

Thal

[Essyne]

You are being extremely kind...

Best,

Alistair

Yet extremely truthful...  . Not e.v.e.r.y.o.n.e. can be like the infamous Thal  .

[thalbergmad]

Hamelin's triple etude is not without skill - it manages to express the simplest ideas with the greatest difficulty.

I once played a recording of Hamelin playing one of the Chop/Gods to my teacher.

He sat looking rather unimpressed and then commented that Chopin said 10 times as much with half the notes.

I think he had a point.

Thal

[michel dvorsky]

I once played a recording of Hamelin playing one of the Chop/Gods to my teacher.

He sat looking rather unimpressed and then commented that Chopin said 10 times as much with half the notes.

I think he had a point.

Thal

Agreed.

The reason Godowsky's transcriptions raise eyebrows is because they actually *do* express original musical ideas (like the originals) whilst showcasing the transcriber's amazing grasp of composition...all the while taking piano technique to another level.

Hamelin's "transcription" accomplishes none of the above"

[ahinton]

Well, i have only sold 1 ticket so far

Ah, but for how much?!

and that was to someone who thought it was bingo night.

...which some might argue it would indeed be if you actually do what you've threatened to do on that forthcoming occasion...

Anyway, it will be an open air concert so i have no idea who the Licensee is. God?

I cannot answer that one with certainty, except to suggest that you'd need to find out who owns the land upon which the event will take place; if, for example, it is your local authority, they will need to have a public performance license covering it in order that your forthcoming performance will be legal. As to whether God is in any way involved, you'll have to address that question to Sister Susan, not me, as I am entirely unqualified to answer it.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I once played a recording of Hamelin playing one of the Chop/Gods to my teacher.

He sat looking rather unimpressed and then commented that Chopin said 10 times as much with half the notes.

I think he had a point.

But not a very good one. Godowsky probably had as much respect for Chopin's remarkable études as anyone and his paraphrases upon them are all about a celebration of Chopin's genius rather than trying to be clever with Chopin's ideas - a salient fact of which your teacher seems to have been sadly ignorant; the number of notes is simply not the point and, as you know, I have the utmost respect for Chopin's work.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Agreed.

The reason Godowsky's transcriptions raise eyebrows is because they actually *do* express original musical ideas (like the originals) whilst showcasing the transcriber's amazing grasp of composition...all the while taking piano technique to another level.

Hamelin's "transcription" accomplishes none of the above"

Whilst agreeing with your first paragraph in all that you say, I find your remark about Hamelin's transcription rather unfair, especially as he was no more trying to "prove points" in it than Godowsky was in his.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

a salient fact of which your teacher seems to have been sadly ignorant

Ok, i'll let him know.

Thal

[ahinton]

Ok, i'll let him know.

You don't have to do that - but it's a fact nonetheless...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

but it's a fact nonetheless...

Of course, you have stated it.

Thal

[mephisto]

Agreed.

The reason Godowsky's transcriptions raise eyebrows is because they actually *do* express original musical ideas (like the originals) whilst showcasing the transcriber's amazing grasp of composition...all the while taking piano technique to another level.

Hamelin's "transcription" accomplishes none of the above"

Thal was talking about a Chop/God played by Hamelin, not an Etude by Hamelin.

[michel dvorsky]

Oh. Well I love Godowsky's etudes, but didn't know it until hearing someone other than Hamelin play them.

[thalbergmad]

You must have heard the Madge then

[ahinton]

Of course, you have stated it.

No, Thal, it is a fact based not upon my statement thereof but upon the specific remarks made by Godowsky himself in his copious prefatory notes and practice recommendations for those studies - unless, of course, you believe that Godowsky was a barefaced liar; it is also self-evident from the music itself, almost none of which sounds cleverly virtuosic and flashy to the average listener. for almost all those capable of grasping the full significance of the immense challenges set by those Godowsky studies are pianists. Might I suggest that you try to see these works as thoughtful, celebratory and profoundly enthusiastic commentaries on the originals written by a composer who never once felt that he had in any sense superseded, bettered or indeed in any other sense altered those incredibly original originals?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

You must have heard the Madge then

Why do you say that? Quite a few other pianists have recorded and performed at least some of the Chopin/Godowsky studies (Bolet, for example, who knew Godowsky personally - and Béroff, who made a CD of some of the left-hand-only ones) and, after all, Carlo Grante recorded the entire cycle before Hamelin did.

Best,

Alistair

[michel dvorsky]

My favorite Godowksy recordings:

Berezovsky, Saperton, Grante (Chopin Etudes)
Scherbakov (Bach Transcriptions, Passacaglia)
Barere, Gilels (Renaissances)
Hofmann (Moment Musical)
Moiseiwitsch (Fledermaus)
Godowsky (Gute Nacht, Morgengruss)

[michel dvorsky]

I suggest that you try to see these works as thoughtful, celebratory and profoundly enthusiastic commentaries on the originals written by a composer who never once felt that he had in any sense superseded, bettered or indeed in any other sense altered those incredibly original originals?

Agree 100% here.

For his talent Godowsky was incredibly humble.  One of the most significant artists of the last century.

[thalbergmad]

No, Thal, it is a fact based not upon my statement thereof but upon the specific remarks made by Godowsky himself in his copious prefatory notes and practice recommendations for those studies - unless, of course, you believe that Godowsky was a barefaced liar; it is also self-evident from the music itself, almost none of which sounds cleverly virtuosic and flashy to the average listener. for almost all those capable of grasping the full significance of the immense challenges set by those Godowsky studies are pianists. Might I suggest that you try to see these works as thoughtful, celebratory and profoundly enthusiastic commentaries on the originals written by a composer who never once felt that he had in any sense superseded, bettered or indeed in any other sense altered those incredibly original originals?

Please unstuff yourself and lighten.

Thal

[ahinton]

Please unstuff yourself and lighten.

No need for either, as at least one other contributor here appears by implication to recognise. In brief, Thal, Chopin's original études are inviolable masterpieces and Godowsky respected and loved them so much that he wrote his studies on them over a considerable number of years and each composer's work stands on its own very considerable merits; in them, each composer made contributions to pianism of immense historical importance. What's so bothersome about that? Have you read Godowsky's own notes on his studies? Do you believe what he wrote in them?

Best,

Alistair

[term]

But not a very good one. Godowsky probably had as much respect for Chopin's remarkable études as anyone and his paraphrases upon them are all about a celebration of Chopin's genius rather than trying to be clever with Chopin's ideas - a salient fact of which your teacher seems to have been sadly ignorant; the number of notes is simply not the point and, as you know, I have the utmost respect for Chopin's work.

I think his intentions are not the point, but rather his music, and I agree with his teachers judgement.
I actually like (some) godowsky, but nevertheless, his super rich romanticism and sometimes excessive, pompous style (on a good day i just call it exaggerated) was the reason for the criticism he recieved. He has his good and bad sides.
It's like a romantic poem, content-wise rather poor, but expressing infinite shades of gray in a very deliberate and varnished way. A matter of taste.

[ahinton]

I think his intentions are not the point, but rather his music, and I agree with his teachers judgement.
I actually like (some) godowsky, but nevertheless, his super rich romanticism and sometimes excessive, pompous style (on a good day i just call it exaggerated) was the reason for the criticism he recieved. He has his good and bad sides.
It's like a romantic poem, content-wise rather poor, but expressing infinite shades of gray in a very deliberate and varnished way. A matter of taste.

Taste is one thing; whether a work is actually any good is quite another, as I'm sure you appreciate. Thal's teacher's remark seemed to me to suggest a certain questioning of the latter in the case of the Chopin/Godowsky studies.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Thal's teacher's remark seemed to me to suggest a certain questioning of the latter in the case of the Chopin/Godowsky studies.

Thal's teacher's remark was simply displaying his preference for the original when listening to just one of the Godowsky transcriptions. The etude in question was the 13th based on Chopin's Op 10 No 6.

From this simple remark, you have now climbed on top of your pedestal and started to orate in your pompous windbag barristers address style. Why you had to over analize this comment is beyond me. We all know you are incredibly knowledable about this genre, but you have to accept that it will not be to everyone's taste and they don't actually have to have a 13,000 word reason if they don't like it.

The Godowsky version undoubtedly has more notes, but whether or not Chopin said more with less is a matter of taste.

Now, please have a few vats of wine and chill for Chrissake.

Thal