favorite ultramodernism thread.

[ahinton]

Fortunately, not much of it has been recorded, so i am not really in a position to bash your work.

Methinks that thou contradictest thyself; how is it that you believe yourself to be in no position to bash my work if you admit (as you do here) to regarding what you see as the lack of extensive recording of it as "fortunate"? Furthermore, how much is "not much"? There's around four and a half hours' worth of it on CD; are we to assume that you regard this amount as insufficient to enable you to bash my work with the confidence of experintial authority, even though you deem it "fortunate" that no more of it has been recorded so far?

The invitation was in any case not specifically directed at you personally but at anyone who might care to consider the possibility of some light relief from Finnissy-bashing...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Hinty is on the wine again

[ahinton]

Hinty is on the wine again

Other than "none", I have no idea what kind of reply that is supposed to be. Come on, Thal - if you're going to say anything here, please do us the favour of being honest with us. Some while ago, you expressed a kind of surprised fascination with one work of mine that is not yet available on a CD to purchase and you are also aware that there are other recorded works of mine that are available for purchase (although you have yet to admit to what, if anything, you have heard of these) so, rather than referring to my being "on" wine (a substance which I am never "on" but which, when I do consume it, appropriately ends up "in" me, so to speak), let's hear it from you as to what you have to say on the subject at hand.

I just don't buy this "Finnissy is crap" attitude from anyone, since it tells is readers less han nothing that's useful about anything worth hearing about; like another contributor to this thread with an evidently not dissimilar take to mine, I am not here as a representative of some kind of Finnissy fan club but merely to point out that yours (and other people's) is no credible way to write about the work of any composer that you (or they) just happen - for specific detailed reasons that you (and they) have yet to share with us - to dislike intensely, as indeed you (and they) nevertheless have a perfect right to do.

In saying all of this I would also draw attention to the fact that my own work probably fails to fall, in most people's view, into what even you might regard as the kind of "modernist" camp against which you seek to rail with such determinedly vehement diligence, but I nevertheless humbly submit that this is hardly the point, since I, like Michael Finnissy and many tens of thousands of others, am, quite simply, just another living composer writing music that you may or may not happen at any given moment in your listening life find palatable.

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Fortunately, not much of it has been recorded, so i am not really in a position to bash your work.

[pies]

Finnissy is crap

[...]

Best,

Alistair

quoted for posterity

[ahinton]

I should perhaps point out that this MIDI exercise was never done for public consumption and the musicologist who created this file did so in the absence of a live peformance of the work just in order to try to hear what it might sound like; the fact that it got stolen and put on YouTube says far more about the person who did so than it does about the musicologist concerned, let alone the transcriber. I think that it is probably best ignored until played by a real live pianist; I stand by the transcription itself but must emphasis that it was written with the intention of live performance.

There are other works of mine on perfectly legitimate CDs if anyone wants to lend an ear or two to them.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

quoted for posterity

...or from your posterior, perhaps. The act of selective quotation is one in which many of us have probably indulged from time to time, especially when faced on occasion with somewhat less than glowing published critical responses to our work; there are those, indeed, who have sought to elevate this to an art-form in itself. Its use here may be mildly amusing for as long as it takes to read it, but that's about as far as it goes...

Bes,

Alistair

[pianochick93]

Alastair...you should be a lawyer...you have that complicated and long winded way of dodging around saying something.

[ahinton]

Alastair...you should be a lawyer...you have that complicated and long winded way of dodging around saying something.

OK, one at a time.

I'm Alistair, not Alastair.

I should not be a lawyer, have never harboured any ambition to be one and have no talents in that direction.

Nothing in the above post is eiher complicated or long-winded.

The said post does not "dodge around" saying anything.

Since it nevertheless appears that you do not understand what I did say, let me try to put it more simply.

The "act of selective quotation" to which I referred is perfectly easy to understand; when artists do it in respect of critical reviews (as sometimes they do), it usually involves taking out the positive bits from something that may contain things both positive and negative and then re-presenting it as though the entire review had been positive.

The case of "pies"'s quoted extract is even simpler than this; it reduces my remark that

"I just don't buy this "Finnissy is crap" attitude from anyone, since it tells is readers less than nothing that's useful about anything worth hearing about"

to

"Finnissy is crap"

as though the latter is an opinion that I expressed; I used the same three words, of course, but not on their own and it is surely obvious that removing the context fundamentally alters the meaning.

I hope that you now understand this; no lawyer-speak or other obsequiosity was required, nor was any used!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Just shows nobody actually wants to play it.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Alastair...you should be a lawyer...you have that complicated and long winded way of dodging around saying something.

More like a politician or a preacher.

Only they could speak for so long without saying anything.

Thal

[mephisto]

I think Alistair's writing is very beautiful

Can I ask this question: did you get an A (top grade) in English when you went to school (last year)?

[thalbergmad]

Can I ask this question

No

[ahinton]

Just shows nobody actually wants to play it.

Er - no. It shows that a musicologist wanted to MIDI it and that someone else subsequently wanted to nick his work and put it on YouTube. I understand that Fredrik Ullén wants to play it but I'm not sure when he will do so; it's not that easy, after all...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

More like a politician or a preacher.

I have no more ambition or talent to be a politican than to be a lawyer and as for being a preacher I think that I may also have some other rather vital attribute missing (as I thought you already realised); no chance there, then...

Only they could speak for so long without saying anything.

I didn't speak; I wrote - and what I wrote was not especially long or hard to understand, especially for someone of your intelligence and wit.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No

Oh yes he can - and has, as surely you noticed?...

Best,

Alistair

[chopininov]

Buzzkill

[thalbergmad]

I think that I may also have some other rather vital attribute missing

That is true

[mephisto]

Oh yes he can - and has, as surely you noticed?...

Best,

Alistair

Would you also be so kind as to answer my question?

[thalbergmad]

You won't get a straight answer from him.

[arensky]

Brilliant. An ingenious paraphrase. 

[ahinton]

That is true

Indeed it is in the said context; in a credible preacher one would reasonably assume the existence of a specific religious faith, wouldn't you say? - and since that is the principal attribute that I lack here, it is surely self-evident that my abilities as a preacher would obviously be hopelessly compromised.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

You won't get a straight answer from him.

Yes, he will (see below).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Would you also be so kind as to answer my question?

If the question to which you refer is that which you'd asked Thal - i.e. whether I obtained "an A (top grade) in English when (I) went to school (last year)" - I can indeed answer it; firstly, I did not go to school last year(!) and secondly I did not get such a qualification, but in spite of that I do try to express things as well as I can.

Best,

Alistair

[enderw20]

If the question to which you refer is that which you'd asked Thal - i.e. whether I obtained "an A (top grade) in English when (I) went to school (last year)" - I can indeed answer it; firstly, I did not go to school last year(!) and secondly I did not get such a qualification, but in spite of that I do try to express things as well as I can.

Best,

Alistair

Translation: No.

[enderw20]

Brilliant. An ingenious paraphrase. 

Didn't someone steal this from Alistair and post it without his permission?

[a-sharp]

No

ROFLMAO

[a-sharp]

Oh yes he can - and has, as surely you noticed?...

Best,

Alistair

Right - actually, it's not like he said "May I..." Clearly he was at least capable.

[ahinton]

Translation: No.

On the contrary, no "translation" is or was required; a résumé, however (if such a thing might help you), might run
1. Are you referring to the questions that you asked Thal and now directing the same to me to answer?
2. No, I didn't go to school last year
3. No, I didn't obtain such a qualification.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Didn't someone steal this from Alistair and post it without his permission?

If my Étude en forme de Chopin is referred to here (and I appreciate the compliment about it), the theft was, strictly speaking, from the musicologist and professor of musicology Marc-André Roberge who created the MIDI file of this work that was then posted to YouTube by someone else without his permission, although the perpetrator didn't have the courtesy to request my permission either, of course and, this being the case, the file was also posted without that.

Quite what this paraphrase is doing in an "ultramodernism thread", however, is less clear to me, although I appreciate the attention drawn to it...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

2. No, I didn't go to school last year


Best,

Alistair

I ment your last year in school. Did you get a top grade in English (written)?

[ahinton]

I ment your last year in school. Did you get a top grade in English (written)?

Ah, I understand your meaning now! No, I didn't, but then I did not complete my schooling as I needed to do some work in order to be able to afford to help towards funding myself at Royal College of Music.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Étude en forme de Chopin

I am giving a concert at the deaf society next week, can i please have your permission to play this.

Thanks in advance.

Thal

[ahinton]

I am giving a concert at the deaf society next week, can i please have your permission to play this.

No.

(Sorry for my apparently typical long post, by the way...)

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Bollox, i'm doing it anyway.

Thal

[Essyne]

I loved it, btw, Alistair.

[chopininov]

Why is this thread still active?

[Essyne]

Because people keep posting in it  .

[maul]

What an incredible observation.

[enderw20]

No.

(Sorry for my apparently typical long post, by the way...)

Best,

Alistair

Just curious Alistair, under what conditions would you grant someone permission to play this in a public performance?

[ahinton]

Bollox, i'm doing it anyway.

Well, that's up to you; will you play it on the piano or will you simply take a computer with you and "play" the YouTube reproduction of the MIDI file of it? Either way, I look forward to receiving the due royalties on it in the fulness of time.

Do please let us know where this "performance" will take place; perhaps others here might like to attend...

Thank you.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I loved it, btw, Alistair.

Thank you very much!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Just curious Alistair, under what conditions would you grant someone permission to play this in a public performance?

I would not grant permission for anyone to relay this MIDI file in a public performance. However, any pianist is free to perform it on the piano (as intended). The MIDI file is wholly unrepresentative of the piece, in view of its inflexibilities of nuance and lack of due dynamic variation; the piece was never intended to be presented in that format and the value of that MIDI file extends nowhere beyond the mere passing interest that it might be thought to generate in terms of what its pitches might actually sound like if given in a performance by a real live pianist, so it's hardly a substitute for a real performance.

For your interest (I hope!), here are my notes on the piece that appear as a preface to the scoore and which should give you some background as to how it came about:


Étude en Forme de Chopin, Op. 26 (1992)

“Blow, blow thou Winter Wind -
How Art-knots so entwined
Chopin’s ingrate-Études..??”
(with appropriately abject apologies to Shakespeare)

ÉTUDE EN FORME DE CHOPIN, for piano, was originally entitled LES TROIS CHOPINS and completed on Chopin’s 167th birthday (1 March 1977).  The composer was not very satisfied with it; reading afterwards that an étude similarly combining the three A-minor études of Chopin had long since been completed by that Master of pianistic re-creation Leopold Godowsky (no actual manuscript has yet been discovered, however) provided the necessary incentive for him to introduce his effort to the waste paper basket.

In May 1992, unbeknown to the composer of this work at the time, the brilliantly gifted Canadian composer and pianist Marc-André Hamelin wrote an étude for piano combining these three Chopin études.  Entitled TRIPLE ÉTUDE AFTER CHOPIN, it is dedicated "To anyone who has ever wondered what Godowsky’s own transcription would have looked like".

In a later letter (enclosing TRIPLE ÉTUDE AFTER CHOPIN) to the composer of this work, Hamelin, referring (though not specifically by name) to LES TROIS CHOPINS, wrote "I would have been extremely interested in seeing yours, but I guess it was not to be".

Guesswork can involve dangerous risks.  The fact that TRIPLE ÉTUDE AFTER CHOPIN provided the composer with what may be seen as the unnecessary incentive to reconstruct LES TROIS CHOPINS perhaps proves this.

This final definitive version of ÉTUDE EN FORME DE CHOPIN is different from the original LES TROIS CHOPINS in several respects (this is perhaps unsurprising, as it was reworked from memory).  It lacks a little of the absence of technical accomplishment of the first version and introduces numerous reminiscences of other Chopin études, in the manner of characters entering into an unfolding drama – (if you believe that, dear reader, you’ll believe anything).  Like the original, however, this étude has as its cantus firmus Chopin’s Op. 25 No.11 throughout until just before the end where the Winter Wind has its last gasp and blows itself out (the pianist may well have his or her last gasp earlier than this).

ÉTUDE EN FORME DE CHOPIN is conceived in the manner and spirit of Godowsky, albeit with but a fraction of his technique and pianistic imagination.  As with Godowsky, it endeavours not to show off by trying to out-Chopin Chopin, but to celebrate the greatness of those glorious Masterworks of Opp. 10 and 25 with which Chopin ushered in a new era in the history of piano composition.

It might well have been dedicated "To those whom it may concern, if any, and others who prefer minding three other people’s business to minding their own"; instead, however, this unholy trinity is dedicated with much affection to Marc-, to André and to Hamelin (e trebus unus).


The reference in the final paragraph to "To those whom it may concern" is an adaptation of a printed notice by Sorabji about himself. A typeset edition of the score was made by Simon Abrahams in 2004.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I look forward to receiving the due royalties on it in the fulness of time.

Cheque for 13 pence in the post.

Thal

[ahinton]

Cheque for 13 pence in the post.

Hey - hold your horses! Not only would it be an unreasonable financial imposition upon you to bear the cost of postage, an envelope and any bank charges that may apply just for the sake of enabling you to send me a cheque for a paltry sum in no wise connected to that which would be due in the circumstances concerned, it is also not in any case your responsibility as the performer to pay anything in respect of such copyright, for such legal responsibility devolves instead upon the licensee/s of the premises in which the performance takes place.

I hope that I can feel relieved at having saved you this expense but we all still await from you the specific details of time and place of this forthcoming event...

Best,

Alistair

[general disarray]

I realize this Etude performance is only a crude approximation of your work, but it's astonishing. 

(And the complex texture mirrors that of your occasionally convoluted, but rarely indecipherable, prose at its most ultra-post/postmodern Johnsonian best.)

In short, sir, you compose as you speak!

[ahinton]

I realize this Etude performance is only a crude approximation of your work,

Well, notwithstanding the best efforts and intentions of the distinguished musicologist who creaed the MIDI file of it, I'm afraid that it is just as you say it is...

but it's astonishing. 

Well, thank you very much!

(And the complex texture mirrors that of your occasionally convoluted, but rarely indecipherable, prose at its most ultra-post/postmodern Johnsonian best.)

I hope that I can somehow manage to merit that compliment (though I rather fear that I can't)...

In short, sir, you compose as you speak!

Oh, dear!...

But anyway, let's without further ado award all due praise (as indeed I do in my prefatory notes to my transcription) to the true genuis of the piano without whom we would not be having this exchange - Fryderyk Franciszek[sp.?] Chopin...

Best,

Alistair

[general disarray]

I really need to add that your Etude contains the seeds of your wicked, but urbane, sense of humor -- also evident in your prose. 

That, by the way, is meant to be a compliment.

And, as to Senor Alfredo Chopino, well, the boy can't be bettered, but his works certainly lend themselves to elaborations of the greatest ingenuity.  Yours certainly rivals Godowsky, but tops him for a remarkable dose of whimsy permeating this captivating keyboard contortionist's confection.

(the above, of course, written, humbly, I must add, in the Hintonian prose style we have come to love and admire.  )

[term]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJKaEihwqC4

Reminds me of hamelins triple etude, who picked up godowsky's idea of a combination of afaik three chopin studies?
Anyway, not exactly my taste, but i guess well done in its kind. Nice : o)

[ahinton]

I really need to add that your Etude contains the seeds of your wicked, but urbane, sense of humor -- also evident in your prose. 

That, by the way, is meant to be a compliment.

And, as to Senor Alfredo Chopino, well, the boy can't be bettered, but his works certainly lend themselves to elaborations of the greatest ingenuity.  Yours certainly rivals Godowsky, but tops him for a remarkable dose of whimsy permeating this captivating keyboard contortionist's confection.

(the above, of course, written, humbly, I must add, in the Hintonian prose style we have come to love and admire.  )

You are being extremely kind...

Best,

Alistair