Writing Romantic / Classical Pieces

[eyeballnick]

Why Why why!!!! whenever i write or try!! to write a piece of music it always sounds more like a pop ballad no matter how hard i try.
Can anyone give advice to making a piece more romantic / Classical

thanks

[dnephi]

Throw in all the tone clusters you can.  I also recommend lid slamming, yelling, and string-plucking.  Stochastic methods are always a plus.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

What your post suggests to me is that you've not absorbed the classical or romantic idiom sufficiently that writing in it becomes second nature (I'm guessing, obviously). I would try improvising in the style of various different composers (for example I find Liszt and Chopin and Mozart quite easy to imitate/parody).

[dan101]

Try a little less syncopation. Also, listen to more Baroque and Classical era works. I would also update your theory skills (i.e. cadence writing, modulation, etc...)

Good luck.

[enderw20]

Quit listining to the radio for a couple months.

[eyeballnick]

Quit listining to the radio for a couple months.

I dont listen to pop music thats the thing, only classical / romantic. The idea of writing in the s tyle of a different composer i think is a good idea thanks! I listen to alot of classical music but being self taught theroy can be improved alot. Thanks for your help guys

[thierry13]

I dont listen to pop music thats the thing, only classical / romantic. The idea of writing in the s tyle of a different composer i think is a good idea thanks! I listen to alot of classical music but being self taught theroy can be improved alot. Thanks for your help guys

I don't know if it's even worth trying if you do not know theory. Even if you knew theory, we're talking about composing here, wich is much more complex than just knowing theory. It will allways sound like a pop ballad because you can't conceive or really understand more complex music. I'm affraid you will simply have to get better, analyse, and try to understand music. It will simply take time, there's no magic trick.

[eyeballnick]

I don't know if it's even worth trying if you do not know theory. Even if you knew theory, we're talking about composing here, wich is much more complex than just knowing theory. It will allways sound like a pop ballad because you can't conceive or really understand more complex music. I'm affraid you will simply have to get better, analyse, and try to understand music. It will simply take time, there's no magic trick.

I understand but im not saying i cant compose, i can, very well, i am very good at improvising also i will post some, i have writen many pieces, some which have been played in concerts and sold on CD, but they all sound like "modern piano" or "ballades" im  just experimenting with classical, and making my music sound more  classical instead of modern, was only asking for help. I fully understand music itself just because i dont know all my scales or things doenst mean when i play in " modern piano style" that it does not come from inside me. I was simply asking for a little advice.

[thierry13]

I understand but im not saying i cant compose, i can, very well, i am very good at improvising also i will post some, i have writen many pieces, some which have been played in concerts and sold on CD, but they all sound like "modern piano" or "ballades" im  just experimenting with classical, and making my music sound more  classical instead of modern, was only asking for help. I fully understand music itself just because i dont know all my scales or things doenst mean when i play in " modern piano style" that it does not come from inside me. I was simply asking for a little advice.

You think that making the music "come from inside you" will help you understand all the science the masters of the past took years to master ? And you don't even know all your scales ? That's the BASE of everything! I'm not telling you you have not got talent, I can't judge you, it's just obvious that you won't be composing like those "romantic" or "classical" composers with some advices, you will need to do much more work. Pop or what you call "modern" piano musicis not even in the league of what you call "romantic/classical", in terms of theory and complexity. All I'm saying is that you won't be changing league with some advices. The best advice you can get is to get a solid foundation in theory and study hard.

[ted]

If you are already fluent in composing and improvising of any sort and your music has been played in concerts and recorded on commercial CDs, then I would say your position is hardly anything to worry about. Most players cannot do these things at all. In creating music I think we have to be completely ourselves; somehow this quality, or the lack of it, always comes out in the music. Struggling with an idiom which is not our natural vehicle, simply for the sake of achievement or to prove a point seems to me a lesser thing.

Of course it depends on your age. If you are young and have plenty of time, then study and assimilate everything under the sun; listen to as diverse an idiomatic range as you can and learn the associated theories and techniques of each. When I was young I had a similar desire to create romantic pieces, fugues, rags and blues, and after years of struggle I managed very reasonable results in all, some better than others. But sooner or later, in my case not until middle-age, you come to the point where you must just be yourself in terms of pure sound, let it out, and say what you must say in any way you can without prior thought of idiom or form.

Follow the others' advice here and study as much romantic music as you can, via both theory and your ear. However, if you reach the end and find it isn't you after all, don't worry too much. Better a fine, original pop ballad written from the heart than a complex but derivative romantic piano solo.

[eyeballnick]

If you are already fluent in composing and improvising of any sort and your music has been played in concerts and recorded on commercial CDs, then I would say your position is hardly anything to worry about. Most players cannot do these things at all. In creating music I think we have to be completely ourselves; somehow this quality, or the lack of it, always comes out in the music. Struggling with an idiom which is not our natural vehicle, simply for the sake of achievement or to prove a point seems to me a lesser thing.

Of course it depends on your age. If you are young and have plenty of time, then study and assimilate everything under the sun; listen to as diverse an idiomatic range as you can and learn the associated theories and techniques of each. When I was young I had a similar desire to create romantic pieces, fugues, rags and blues, and after years of struggle I managed very reasonable results in all, some better than others. But sooner or later, in my case not until middle-age, you come to the point where you must just be yourself in terms of pure sound, let it out, and say what you must say in any way you can without prior thought of idiom or form.

Follow the others' advice here and study as much romantic music as you can, via both theory and your ear. However, if you reach the end and find it isn't you after all, don't worry too much. Better a fine, original pop ballad written from the heart than a complex but derivative romantic piano solo.

Yes thanks ted, im 19 so yeah im kinda young. Definatly going to study hard. And thierry13 - I know music doesnt just come from inside you, but its a good start, it means my music means somthing no matter what style it comes out as. But i will take you advice and start studying. Thanks all. 

[thierry13]

And thierry13 - I know music doesnt just come from inside you, but its a good start, it means my music means somthing no matter what style it comes out as.

That's exactly why I said I didn't say you had no talent. I was just saying that the fact that it comes from inside won't help you to write successfully in the style you want to. Best of luck.

[eyeballnick]

That's exactly why I said I didn't say you had no talent. I was just saying that the fact that it comes from inside won't help you to write successfully in the style you want to. Best of luck.

Yeah i i guess i was just taking it the wrong way sorry !!! hehe but yeah thanks for the advice.

[eastman_grad]

To compose a pastiche of classical music, you need to understand periodic phrase structure and how it is related to harmony. Try this, for example:

Think of a two-measure basic idea over tonic harmony.
Write a two-measure response over dominant harmony.
Repeat the two-measure basic idea.
Write another two-measure response that is underlined by a cadential progression (say, ii6-V-I)

OR...

Think of a two-measure basic idea over tonic harmony.
Repeat the two-measure idea but over dominant harmony.
Write a four-measure continuation that breaks down your two-measure basic idea into smaller units. Begin over tonic harmony, but make sure the harmonic rhythm proceeds at 1 harmony per measure as opposed to the two harmonies per measure of the basic idea. In fact, to get an even better result, try the following harmonic rhythm:

measure #      # of harmonies

1-2                       1
3-4                       1
5                          1
6                          1
7                          2
8 (cadence is reached) 1


There are many variants of what I have just described, but trying a few exercises...a few beginnings of pieces...will get you on the right track. Also, if you're writing in the classical style, remember some of its early characteristics:

- transparency of structure
- simplified harmonic discourse
- the variety of character between themes (usually abrupt/motivic followed by lyrical ... although not always)

If you want more help along these lines, let me know.

[etcetra]

To write music in the classical idiom you really have to study it, i don't know how much background you have, but having some knowledge helps.  I mean I can't see how anyone can make a descent, convincing romantic music without studying stuff like harmony and counterpoint. 

It would be a great help to get classical scores you like and you want to emulate and really study them.. study its harmony, themes, how everything is developed.. etc.. if you can try transcribing them too which is harder but you will absorb the piece a lot more.  Again it would be a great help to know some theory... hope this helps.

[pianistimo]

I found a very thin old book of Paul Hindemith's from my husband's college days.  It was $2.00 - and from around 1943.  It's called 'Traditional Harmony' and simply a bunch of good exercises (like eastman_grad wrote) except broken down into even smaller units at the beginning and then gradually builds on these exercises - to put them together.  What I like about OLD harmony books is that they explain the 'middle' exercises and don't leave them out completely.  Everyone wants to learn at such a fast pace nowdays.  They don't want to admit that everything takes time and to get from A to B means that you practice a bunch of stuff inbetween.

Fux's gradus ad parnassum is cool, too.  Here you have literal verbatum exercises as they would be presented upon the 'altar' to mozart.  Although, I tend to realize that the depth that some composers had to composition was rather alarming from a young age.  For instance, just 'hearing' the right sound.  How many of us today would know if it was the better choice of two or three?  Anything goes today.  Back in the classical era - certain things were expected, weren't they?  More concrete rules.  Really, a whole system to explain the society around them.  All based on the greek standard of perfection.  The 'golden mean.'  Measuring things and attaching significance to proportions of form - and also down to smaller things such as intervals and progressions.

If I were going to write a 'romantic' classical piece - it would be much different than a 'classical' romantic piece.  i don't think having syncopation or not would figure in as much as ornamentation 'gone wild.'  The first thing I'd study is 'line' - and little liberties that one starts taking to add to the line (runs, trills, whatever).  And, to have the line match poetry/speech that was somewhat symmetrical in nature.  Mozart used the ideas of speech A LOT.  Many other sounds in nature can be repeating - but in different lengths combined together to make a 'whole.'  Not just ABA patterns but variations.  I think definately to start with the idea of a set of variations would be much simpler than creating a dance set (suite) of which few if any of the dances are danced today.  But, everyone understand variations.

The romantic part of the variations would come under the idea of taking something from antiquity and making it 'new.'  Say - creating this piece of music for a unique combination of instruments (garden setting) and then adding a few instruments with each variation - until you get to the last variation which would be the full classical (small) orchestra.  just an idea.

[pianistimo]

con't on the hindemith book:

They assume your prerequisites include - knowing all major and minor scales (in different forms), keys and the circle of fifths, accidentals, note and rest values, measure-signatures, treble and bass-clef, intervals in all forms.  Being able to write ranges for sop/alto/tenor/bass
and understanding triads and how to form the building blocks with major and minor thirds.  Knowing that triads are named according to their roots - and knowing that capital letters indicate major triads and small letters minor triads.

The first exercises include playing the triads: A, a, C#, db, Bb, b, Gb, f#

Now - it's easier than most people think.  If you want a major triad - you play two whole steps and play the bottom to the topmost note.  A to C#.  In a major chord - the bottom two notes determine if it will be a major chord (as they are a major third).  The top is the oppposite - a minor third.  That is one and a half steps or from C# to e-natural.  If you want to know the notes of any triad - just break it down.

This is probably wayy basic for someone in college - but just about right for those piano students that want to learn about theory and are in 7th-8th grade.  Unfortunately - piano lessons sometimes don't leave time to learn these things and people learn them in a hurry in college.  Much better to have been taught earlier - so you can go on to more 'fun' stuff.  But, it's not impossible to learn it all fairly quickly in college.

Then, this book goes into doubling and spacing.

[pianistimo]

doubling rules:  distribution of the triad tones:  one tone must be doubled (makes sense because you have four voices and only three notes in a triad).  permissable doublings are the root (bottom note of the triad) or the fifth (top note of the triad).  no third doubling!

no crossing of the voices (maintain the natural order: soprano, alto, tenor, bass)

spacing:  two types - close position and open position.  close position:  no tone of the same triad can be inserted between soprano and alto, or alto and tenor.  open position:  tones of the same triad can be inserted between soprano and alto, or between alto and tenor.  (basicallyif the top two notes of the first chord are the third and root (on top) - then the second two top notes (sop/alto) would be root and fifth (on top).  positions are determined by the soprano tone.  if you have a position of the octave being doubled in the soprano and bass - the first thing you do is copy the soprano note into the bass.  then fill in the other notes of the triad that are missing and not doubled. 

exercise #2 - write all these triad in all possible open and close positions:  D, Bb, F#, Ab, G, e, g#, eb, f, b

write out all the triads of these scales and use only the tones available to you from those scales (this requires knowing the circle of fifths and using your knowledge of that to write in key signature).  i often wrote in the letter names above the chords just to remind myself.  (D F# A).

[pianistimo]

OK.  So getting back to the writing of a set of variations - you could create it to be a set of variations that starts with a folk song you find from the 'period' (my teacher didn't like this word because the classical period didn't really start and end with any composer's birth/death per se).  Take that folk song and elaborate.  Manipulate from closed positions to open (last few variations - much like poulenc) - from expected harmonic progressions to the most 'wild' (adding in ornamentation - and more instruments) - change keys/rhythms/move the line around - with different question/response lengths.  You could almost cut and paste as you get towards the last variations - and not be as predictable.

[goldentone]

If you really do desire to write classical, then just keep working at it.  The real
secret is in the desire.  In the beginning I think it's wise to keep the pieces short--this will help build your confidence.  You can still compose music and satisfy that need in the meantime until the knowledge of the craft comes alongside. 

[chopinmozart7]

Try to write music from inside of you,from your self. when i wrote my first ballade i first
improved it in my head before i started to play it and adding/changing parts. Maybe if you have listened to many popballades, then your ballade maybe also sounds like one.
Good luck!