Apocalypse Now?

[general disarray]

Americans are totally freaked out.  The mortgage/banking crisis over here is deepening.  Oil prices are climbing, food prices are escalating.  The current American government is dangerously corrupt and has counted on fear of terrorism to support its fascist tendencies.  Everywhere, especially China, India and Russia, we see outrageous profiteering and exploitation of the working classes.  The center, as Yeats ominously predicted, cannot hold.

How are Europeans dealing with this crisis?

What advice would you give?

How can we avert this coming disaster? 

[tanman]

hmm....
I dunno.

btw trying to get post count to 100 before end of week.

[general disarray]

hmm....
I dunno.

btw trying to get post count to 100 before end of week.

 

[frigo]

As far as I know, the situation is very bad here in Europe too.. the oil price is very high and this is affecting everything.. There were many strikes in portugal, spain and france in the transports sector that freezed the whole country... it's not very good indeed...

[Petter]

The horror… the horror…

[thalbergmad]

Things are pretty bad in jolly old England as well.

The idiot banks that offered people 6 x their annual salary mortgages and the idiots that took them are now feeling the pinch. Fuel prices have gone through the roof and thanks to the Scottish knobends in charge of the Country, we have got a £555,000,000 national debt and not a pot to piss in.

It is a shame that not a penny was put by for the bad times, when we were experiencing our so called unprecented 10 years of growth.

The only positive i can think of is that all of the Poles are going home as the building industry has collapsed.

Thal

[ahinton]

Things are pretty bad in jolly old England as well.

The idiot banks that offered people 6 x their annual salary mortgages and the idiots that took them are now feeling the pinch.

This is why the French are feeling the pinch less than the Brits (at least on the mortgage front), since the Thatcher effect that brought about the passion for buying one's own home at no matter what cost to oneself and irrespectice of affordability has cut far less ice across the channel where far fewer French people try to borrow up to and beyond their eyeballs to get loans to purchase their own homes. The French do not escpae the effects entirely, however, since French banks do business with British and other banks that are affected to a greater or lesser extent by what is now becoming a global banking crisis.

Fuel prices have gone through the roof

True, but this is happening all over the world, is it not? - and they're not stopping at roof level, either; if by the end of the present decade on can fill up the average family car for less than £200 I will be astonished, frankly.

and thanks to the Scottish knobends in charge of the Country, we have got a £555,000,000 national debt and not a pot to piss in.

I have, as I think you know, less than no patience with those knobends who might be more than sufficient to make one ashamed to be a Scot were common sense not to prevail in the form of recognition that it is Scotland itself that should be ashamed of the said knobends; that said, I do not think it reasonable to blame them for the rise in fuel prices except to the extent that they resolutely refuse to reduce taxes on fuel when prices rise as much as they have of late.

It is a shame that not a penny was put by for the bad times, when we were experiencing our so called unprecented 10 years of growth.

You mean "unprecedented" - and indeed you are right in what you say here; so much for Brown's widely advertised and much-vaunted "prudence". However, the poor average British citizen has for the most part had no means of putting anything aside for years, hence the woeful lack of savings discipline and pension planning wherewith Britain is now beleaguered; prices and taxes have been far too high to allow anything left over for "hard times" and, for example, when some employers have to borrow to pay their employees' salaries, even those people who believe themselves to be debt-free are debtors nonetheless, since they are contributing to and becoming enmeshed in indebtedness just by working and taking a salary.

The only positive i can think of is that all of the Poles are going home as the building industry has collapsed.

The building industry hasn't quite collapsed yet, although it seems to be showing every sign of being well on the way in that direction; that said, why do you say that this is "positive" when those Poles have come here to learn skills at the Brits' expense and then take them home again at the Brits' expense to make money in a Poland that can now almost certainly qualify for greater EU grant aid partly at the Brits' expense and who then pay taxes to the Polish government rather than the British one?

As to my own departure from these shores in what I anticipate to be a couple of years' time or so, I propose not only to take whatever skills I may have with me (they'll hardly be missed in Britain like building ones would be, after all) but also to consider trying to take advantage of that severely ailing building industry by buying the building materials in Britain at hopefully knock-down prices for the place that I want to have built in France and having them shipped over there in a couple of HGVs, probably by some Poles who are still over here and, if that plan is successful, I will not only have saved myself a fair amount of money but also ensured that the British so-called government will have got far less VAT on the sale of those materials than would have been the case had they been purchased at full price...

Food and fuel prices are unlikely to do anything other than rise globally in the coming years and, while they do so, the attentions of many people affected thereby will almost certainly not be turned towards what I suspect may be a far worse economic crisis to come, which will centre around the price of water.

Best,

Alistair

[michel dvorsky]

WHOOOAAAAA

CAPITALISM HAS GONE HAYWIRE MAN; HAYWIRE!

CORPORATE PROFITS.  THIRD WORLD EXPLOITATION.

CHENEY. HALLIBURTON.

HOUSING MARKET.

GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

[richard black]

GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

Yeah, whatever.

[ahinton]

Yeah, whatever.

Or rather whatnever. I would gently remind michel dvorsky that capitalism in one form or another is so endemic that this particular "game" will never be over. In the communist states during the past century, capitalism held sway, the principal difference between its application and operation there and the equivalent in so-called "democracies" was in who controlled the finances, how and to what extent - no more, no less. Even the Soviet Union and China traded with the outside world from the start of those régimes until their collapse and money also continued to change hands within those countries, not least in thriving black markets. I am not suggesting that all forms of capitalism are perfect or even acceptable; I merely observe that some form of it is inevitable and, when markets fall sharply, there is always and bunch of speculators at the ready to make capital advantage out of it - history has shown this and it will doubtless repeat itself. So - I think, Mr Dvorsky, that you're onto a loser there, if I may say so - and your consistent use of capital letters in your post perhaps has its own irony...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

True, but this is happening all over the world, is it not?

Indeed, but if you are already paying more than other countries, the effect is greater.

Thal

[richard black]

I actually think it might be game over this time, though, because now for the first time the whole world is involved. Previous impending apocalypses have tended to be local.

[concerto_love]

.... that oil.....

[rc]

Here's something I read last night, from Emerson's 'Conduct of Life':

"In front of these sinister fact, the first lesson of history is the good of evil.  Good is a good doctor, but Bad is sometimes a better."

He then goes on to list a bunch of examples.  To me the best analogy is how a forest fire gets the old trees out of the way so something new can grow.

(halfway through long rabble, RC realizes he has to get to work.  Long story short, he thinks apocalypse fears are a joke and that a crisis could be just what's needed for a culture that has so much poison running through it's veins)

[general disarray]

.... that oil.....

Spot on, concerto.

It IS about "that oil."  But I see a slight ray of hope in the dialogue over here about "that oil," however.  It's finally being debated that since the US only produces about a quarter of the oil it needs, and, therefore, must import from countries which, at best, are antagonistic to us -- thanks, of course, to our rapacious policies -- it's now necessary to explore alternatives to oil.  In fact, it's imperative.

Al Gore and at least one Texas oil baron are arguing the same case on the international forum.  To be as technologically advanced as we are, the argument goes, and to rely on fossil fuels is just brain dead.

But we know why the reliance is there, of course -- the imperialistic oil barons and their powerful companies lobby the government incessantly and buy politicians to keep us dependent on fossil fuels.

So, change is possible, but will humans allow it?  With petrodollars fueling one of the greatest consumer binges in human history -- and I offer up Russia as a prime example -- who can predict or even hope that these grabbers will back away from greed for the benefit of the rest of us?

As Petter, via Joseph Conrad said, "the horror, the horror."

[enderw20]

we have got a £555,000,000 national debt and not a pot to piss in.

 I think our National Debt went up by that much in the time it took me to type this post.

[pies]

a

[michel dvorsky]

In case anyone missed it...I was being sarcastic. 

[ahinton]

Indeed, but if you are already paying more than other countries, the effect is greater.

Yes, of course that is so in principle, but since the French are already paying more for petrol than we are (which was not the case until relatively recently), where does that leave this part of your argument?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I actually think it might be game over this time, though, because now for the first time the whole world is involved. Previous impending apocalypses have tended to be local.

Point taken at least in principle, but what about those global speculators who are always ready and poised to take advantage of any such economically disastrous situation?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

where does that leave this part of your argument?

It doesn't affect the Yanks as much as us does it, and if the Saudis have to increase their price to 20p a litre, I doubt if there will be an uprising.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

the French are already paying more for petrol than we are

This is the best news i have heard in ages.

Serves the port blockading bastards right.

Thal

[ahinton]

It doesn't affect the Yanks as much as us does it, and if the Saudis have to increase their price to 20p a litre, I doubt if there will be an uprising.

Maybe not - or maybe; those who hold sway over oil production and distribution still for the time being have it in their hands to bring to their knees everyone who still depends on that product...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

those who hold sway over oil production and distribution still for the time being have it in their hands to bring to their knees everyone who still depends on that product...

Thankfully, i don't.

I cycle nearly everywhere now and i only depend on bananas.

Thal

[ahinton]

This is the best news i have heard in ages.

Serves the port blockading bastards right.

No it isn't, for the increases in French fuel prices are filtering directly through to UK as a direct consequence of increased pump prices in France; what France does yesterday, we'll do by a quarter past eleven without doubt - and the very fact that so many Brits persistently visit France and return after short intervals helps to fuel the increased fuel prices over here in UK.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Thankfully, i don't.

I cycle nearly everywhere now and i only depend on bananas.

But most people don't do either, so you will still suffer the consequences like everyone else does; who makes your bicycle parts and tyres and all the rest? and to what extent do they continue to depend upon oil revenues to provide to you a vehicle that you can drive?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

But most people don't do either

When it runs out they will.

Halfords sales are up 130%.

Thal

[richard black]

Halfords sales are up 130%.

I find that faintly depressing. Though on reflection I suppose it's still possible that the real bike shops are doing even better....

[thalbergmad]

Well, i did my best to help Evans Cycles.

The amount of people that go to Halfords for a bike is as you say depressing. They are happy to sell you something that doesn't fit and will fall to pieces if it is ridden over a stone. Also, some dweeb with acne will treat you like rubbish if you dare to take something back.

Thal

[ahinton]

When it runs out they will.

Halfords sales are up 130%.

But Halfords' products are far more geared to serving drivers of motor vehicles than drivers of bicycles, so I don't see how that argument supports what you appear to be suggesting.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It doesn't affect the Yanks as much as us does it, and if the Saudis have to increase their price to 20p a litre, I doubt if there will be an uprising.

The reson that it doesn't affect Americans as much as it does us is largely not down to the price of oil but the extent to which it is taxed; prices at the pumps in US have been rising as well, you know - it's just that what is paid there remains vastly less than what is pai over here in Europe. I don't know what it costs at the pumps in Saudi, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge there.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

When it runs out they will.

If by that you are intending to suggest that when the oil runs out people who have not previously owned bicycles will purchase and use them, there are flaws in this argument, as follows.

Most people who drive bicycles at one time or another do not (and indeed for the most part simply cannot in any case) do so as a substitute for their cars.

The likelihood of future instability in oil prices is infinitely greater than the possibility that oil supplies will run out completely.

What you suggest here takes no account of the possibility of future alternative fuel vehicles or indeed the extent to which they are already in use; there's a very long way to go here, of course and, as I have pointed out previously, most people have been woefully short-sighted when it comes to the development and use of non-oil-fuelled vehicles. I am all in favour of the development of electrically-powered cars and there are already some on the market of which a few are quite powerful. I am also against the over-dependence upon oil, not only on the road but in the domestic fuel market as well; I do see a big future opening up for alternative energy sources in both areas and, whilst the oil producing countries will like this less and less as it continues, that's just too bad as far as I am concerned.

One problem with this in UK at present, however, is that its "government", which seems to know how to do very little other than invent new taxes and increase existing ones, are pushing to raise taxes for the more gas-guzzling of petrol and diesel powered vehicles at a time when viable alternatives to these are as yet very few and far between (am I surprised?)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

What you suggest here takes no account of the possibility of future alternative fuel vehicles or indeed the extent to which they are already in use

I personally think that fart power is the direction we should be going in. If we could only harness the power of every botty burp and trouser inflater in the Country, we are getting to the stage where oil will be redundant.

By the way, i use a cycle every day, but i have never driven one.

Thanks

Thal

[ahinton]

I personally think that fart power is the direction we should be going in. If we could only harness the power of every botty burp and trouser inflater in the Country, we are getting to the stage where oil will be redundant.

Nice try, Thal - or at least it might be were it only possible to take it seriously; the UK diet would have to become disastrously bad for the health of its every citizen before this could even begin to have any chance of working in practical terms - and then there would be few people left in sufficiently good health to take advantage of it...

By the way, i use a cycle every day, but i have never driven one.

Then I'm sure that most of us here would not want to know what you do with it...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

This is the best news i have heard in ages.

Serves the port blockading bastards right.

Er - not really. Whatever you may think of the French in general terms, my statement should have been clearer in that I should have said that petrol and diesel now cost more at most of the pumps in France that they do in UK and that this, of course, affects everyone who has to purchase it there, not just the French (and do remember that many Brits have moved out of UK to live permanently in France and more continue to do so daily, so they, too, are affected by this fuel price hike).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

(and do remember that many Brits have moved out of UK to live permanently in France and more continue to do so daily, so they, too, are affected by this fuel price hike).

True, but they get cheap wine and onions, so that more than compensates.

Thal

[ahinton]

True, but they get cheap wine and onions, so that more than compensates.

It is indeed true that food and drink in general (not just wine and onions) are cheaper in France than they are in UK at present, but the extent to which that fact may compensate for the greater inflation in fuel prices in France would seem to be open to question, methinks...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps the good old European Union will give them a rebate to help out. Even better, they could give even more money to French farmers and ask them to produce bio diesel.

However, asking French farmers to do some work might result in some more port blockades.

Thal

[ahinton]

Perhaps the good old European Union will give them a rebate to help out.

Perhaps they'll give me one to subsidise my promotion and dissemination of the music and literary writings of a Parsi composer; after all, Iran will surely become an EU member eventually.

Even better, they could give even more money to French farmers and ask them to produce bio diesel.

I suppose that they could, but I rather hope that they don't; it's a bad idea, in my view.

However, asking French farmers to do some work might result in some more port blockades.

If French farmers didn't do any work, how come all that wine and all those onions (as well as all manner of other foodstuffs) are actually produced at all? (and I might add that I see considerably less imported food on sale in France than I do in England).

When considering the irritating French habit of port blockades, by the way, don't forget that we had a truckers' protest of our own in London recently; I know that the English aren't as good or as quick off the mark in causing this kind of disruption, but can you blame those truckers? - Britain is, I believe, the only country in Western Europe where diesel is dearer than petrol...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

I actually think it might be game over this time, though, because now for the first time the whole world is involved. Previous impending apocalypses have tended to be local.

The Great Depression of the 1930's was faily universal - not all caused by the Wall Street crash of course, but a toxic combination of war damage/reparations, tariffs, the collapse of the Gold Standard etc etc.

But there is a precedent........would that be the United States precedent? 

[thalbergmad]

If French farmers didn't do any work, how come all that wine and all those onions (as well as all manner of other foodstuffs) are actually produced at all?

Simple, they get the Albanians to do it.

Anyway, i have never heard of a wine farmer??

Thal

[wishful thinker]

Anyway, i have never heard of a wine farmer??

Thal

Are you sure that you've never heard of a wine farmer (the question mark raises this doubt in my mind)?

Anyway, viniculture is not an EU (CAP) subsidised activity, so that may explain their lack of militancy ...

...and of course their holier-than-thou attitude to life....

[enderw20]

Iran will surely become an EU member eventually.

Im curious, if this statement was not sarcasm, what leads you to believe that this will happen? I am highly doubtfull  that the events that could lead to this will ever occur.

[wishful thinker]

Its obvious.  The EU is an evil (and thoroughly undemocratic) empire, constantly expanding beyond its supposed original remit.  Why should it stop at the technical boundaries of Europe?  After all, Turkey is hoping to join..

[thalbergmad]

The EU is an evil (and thoroughly undemocratic) empire, constantly expanding beyond its supposed original remit. 

This is an excellent description. Just needs a sprinkling of unelected fraudsters to make it perfect.

The EU is as much Democratic as Mugabe. They will continue to ask the Irish to vote on the constitution until they get the answer they want.

Thal

[ahinton]

Im curious, if this statement was not sarcasm, what leads you to believe that this will happen? I am highly doubtfull  that the events that could lead to this will ever occur.

It is not likely ijn the near future, but the obsessive expansion of the EU can surely never be in doubt. If Europe doesn't get itself to be vastly larger than it is, it will be swallowed up - this, I think, is the somewhat understandable fear. We already know that all the countries of the former Yugoslavia, as well as Ukraine, Moldova, etc., are itching to join. Albania (which Thal mentions en passant) will want to follow the latest two (Bulgaria and Rumania) as soon as possible and Turkey will eventually have its way as well, which will mean that the EU has a border with Iraq. Morocco has indicated its desire to join so, when it succeeds, why should we assume other than that the remainder of northern Africa will want to follow suit? Israel is a strategically interesting case, with its already strong links with Europe as we now understand it - so when it joins, why not Lebanon? And then Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan (two of which have been already heavily involved with Europe). When this has happened, the rest of the Middle East will surely follow, especially if the oil supremacy that currently keeps their nations afloat has abated somewhat. An EU with an eventual total of around 100 nation states is far from impossible, especially given the likely break-up of UK and Belgium and the already existent fragmentation of what was once Yugoslavia (in tht this alone could eventually constitute around a dozen of those member states). Please understand that I am not suggesting that this will or may be a good thing - merely that it is likely as time passes.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

This is an excellent description. Just needs a sprinkling of unelected fraudsters to make it perfect.

The EU is as much Democratic as Mugabe.

Less so, surely? - but then who cares about that when we are merely considering what is likely to happen as distinct from what would be a good thing to happen?

They will continue to ask the Irish to vote on the constitution until they get the answer they want.

And the rest! But, as I have suggested, if EU does not expand greatly, it and all its nation states could easily end up powerless - so the fear goes...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

But, as I have suggested, if EU does not expand greatly, it and all its nation states could easily end up powerless

Pennyless more likely

[cherub_rocker1979]

Is the worst over?

https://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2542436220080725?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

[thalbergmad]

Hopefully the worst is over. I did notice a drop in price during my monthly trip to the petrol station.

Tesco's were offering 10 pence a litre off, but you had to buy 6 million pounds worth of groceries to qualify.

Thal