Rachmaninoff fingering

[byarbrough]

I need some advice on the poco piu mosso bridge section towards the beginning of the first movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto. I'm having a huge amount of trouble with the left hand in this part, specifically with the second and third measures. If it helps, the notes here are "F, E flat, A, C, A, D, E flat, A, B flat, C, D, A, F sharp, C, F sharp, B flat, C." My professor and I talked about fingering this at the end of the semester before summer break, and she recommended 1235212 4321235321. The third measure seems to be getting better so that's probably just a practice issue, but no matter how much I do slow practice on the second measure as soon as I begin to speed it up it falls apart. This is such an awkward spot in the piece for me and I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Thanks for your help

[general disarray]

I need some advice on the poco piu mosso bridge section towards the beginning of the first movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto. I'm having a huge amount of trouble with the left hand in this part, specifically with the second and third measures. If it helps, the notes here are "F, E flat, A, C, A, D, E flat, A, B flat, C, D, A, F sharp, C, F sharp, B flat, C." My professor and I talked about fingering this at the end of the semester before summer break, and she recommended 1235212 4321235321. The third measure seems to be getting better so that's probably just a practice issue, but no matter how much I do slow practice on the second measure as soon as I begin to speed it up it falls apart. This is such an awkward spot in the piece for me and I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Thanks for your help

Yes, that second measure is a b*tch.  I solved it (beginning F, E-flat, etc.) with 1215212.  I use the thumb on the A, which requires nothing more than an easily accomplished hand shift, that feels right for me.  With 3 on that A, the stretch is strained for me.  I can just reach a 10th, so my hand isn't large.

 As for the second pattern, I use the same fingering your teacher suggested.

[ramseytheii]

In the first pattern starting on F (down beat of second bar of Un poco piu mosso), I would rather recommend:

1 2 1 5 1 3 2

Medtner described Rachmaninoff's technique as "shaking" the notes out of his sleeve, and this fingering would correspond to that description.  The A natural - C - A, should just be shaken out in one gesture, and then with your elbow flip back up to the upper notes.  This will be easier if you remember to use flat fingers on black notes, and to stroke the keys rather than strike them.

It is probable that Rachmaninoff played with this fingering:

1 2 3 5 3 2 1

Because his hand was huge (he played Reconnaissance from Schumann's "Carnaval" with 1-2 on the repeated notes, something it is safe to say 99% of pianists cannot do).

I do not recommend trying to use a "Rachmaninoff" fingering, because they don't work for most people.  At the end of his Prelude in b minor, op.32 no.11, in the cadenza, he has a very awkward fingering for the LH, going up a G-major arpeggio from B to D an octave higher:

5 4 3 2 1

I've never used this fingering, and don't know anybody who does.

I find your teacher's fingering to be elegant.  It requires a specialized motion of the hand, which rests on a flexible elbow, active index finger and strong pinky.  If it doesn't work for you, try my barbaric one.

Walter Ramsey

[general disarray]

In the first pattern starting on F (down beat of second bar of Un poco piu mosso), I would rather recommend:

1 2 1 5 1 3 2


Walter Ramsey

I'm curious as to why you would choose, in this pattern above, using 3 on the penultimate note, which is a D.  Having just played the A (the third to the last note) with 2, you find your thumb is just over the next note, D, and crossing with 2 to hit the E-flat is a piece of cake.  Furthermore, by using the thumb on D you're keeping the same pattern in your hand for both the down and upwards gesture:  1215212, ensuring more accuracy.

[byarbrough]

Thanks for the help guys, I'll try out the different fingerings you recommended and see if any of those work for me. On another note, how fast do you think this setion should be played? I've been doing the first few pages at around 138 bmp and then bumping it up to 152 at the piu mosso. There is a notable difference between the two sections, but do you think the piu mosso should be faster? It feels like it's a bit clumsy when I play it at this speed, and speeding it up makes it feel lighter and contrasts it more to the previous section. However, my professor has been warning me against playing too quickly. She said if I were to do this in a recital hall the acoustics tend to make fast sections unclear, and she says that in many cases it's better to play everything more slowly than you think it should be played to avoid this, and don't try to imitate the professionals that play it ridiculously fast.

[general disarray]

I agree with your teacher.  It takes so long to learn this stupid section, you don't want to play it so fast your audience only hears nothing more than a chromatic "whoosh."

Van Cliburn has great tempi for this concerto, I think, and he only speeds up the piu mosso a bit.  Not rushed sounding at all, but moderately faster than the preceding section.

[byarbrough]

I wasn't sure if I should make a new topic or just bump this one back to the top, but here goes-

What's the best way to learn the 5 against 3 towards the end of the first movement? I've been trying regular scales with this rhythm with the intent of transferring it to the actual notes once I get it down, but I'm having trouble doing it even with just scales. There isn't a way to easily divide it, so is practicing over and over the only way to get a feel for it? Is there anywhere I could listen to the rhythm online by itself to help give me an idea of what it sounds like? Thanks