Breaking news on Chopin

[ada]

Chopin may have died from cystic fibrosis, not tuberculosis as has been previously  believed, according to scientists reporting in the Journal of Applied Genetics.

The scientists want to do a DNA test on Chopin's heart , which is currently preserved in alcohol (believed to be cognac),  to determine whether his lifelong frailty and health problems were actually caused by the genetic disease.

However they have hit a wall with the Polish government refusing to give them permission to get to the heart, which is stored in a jar sealed in a pillar in Holy Cross Church in Warsaw.

The government says there's nothing to be gained by unsealing Chopin's heart except satisfying the curiosity of the scientists.

What a fascinating scenario. What would you do?

[Petter]

I agree with the polish government. Leave the poor man alone.

[pianochick93]

Yeah. He's dead, nothing is going to be gained from finding out how he died. Leave him be.

[ada]

But what about setting the historical record straight?

[aewanko]

But what about setting the historical record straight?

Yeah. Why not at least get a strand of tissue of Chopin's heart?

[Petter]

But what about setting the historical record straight?

Personally I don´t think it matters if he were abducted by aliens or died by tuberculosis. He´s still gone, and if I´m correct it was his own wish that his heart should be removed. One should respect that.

[tds]

glad we, musicians, can get to chopin's heart without much scandal

[thalbergmad]

This would be even worse than cutting bits off the Turin Shroud. Whatever the results, they would still be disputed by some.

Why don't we dig up Paganini again and have a look at this hands.

Thal

[allthumbs]

Here is an interesting article about Chopin's health from the Journal of Applied Genetics.

https://jay.au.poznan.pl/html1/JAG/pdfy/2003_Volume_44/2003_Volume_44_1-77-84.pdf

allthumbs

[thalbergmad]

Shacking up with someone who smoked 50 cigars a day probably did not do his constitution any good.

Thal

[Essyne]

Along the lines of "he's gone," honestly, what's the big deal with examining his heart? I don't think it would hurt anything. People place too much emphasis on the body. Really. The dude's dead. It's just an old piece of flesh. I say hack away.

[general disarray]

There's a precedent for this scientific curiosity.  According to Jan Swafford in his biography of Brahms:

"Both composers (Schubert and Beethoven) were exhumed in 1888 for reburial in 'Graves of Honor' in Vienna's Central Cemetery.  Before reburial the coffins were opened for the inspection of doctors and scientists.  Anton Bruckner, then 64, showed up uninvited on both occasions.  When he saw Beethoven's open casket, he shoved past the horrified doctors and seized the skull in both his hands, staring into the empty sockets as if he were trying to divine the sublime riddle of genius, and declaimed in his Upper Austrian drawl, "Now ain't it true, dear Beethoven, that if you were alive today you'd allow me to touch you?  And now them strange gentlemen here want to forbid me that!"  He had to be forcibly removed.  Beethoven's bones may be decorated to this day by a lens from Bruckner's spectacles, which fell out during the ruckus.  He pulled the same stunt at Schubert's exhumation, refusing to release the skull until they allowed him to place it in the coffin himself."

(Knopf, 1997, page 500.)

[tds]

I say hack away.

essyne, we all luv u, u know. but did u really say dat?!

[Essyne]

If it helps some people (aka the LIVING), why not allow them to do it? Same with seizing the skull or whatever. It's not Beethoven. It's not Schubert. It's not Chopin. If it means something to someone, maybe we should allow them that little sense of satisfaction.

[tds]

If it helps some people (aka the LIVING), why not allow them to do it? Same with seizing the skull or whatever. It's not Beethoven. It's not Schubert. It's not Chopin. If it means something to someone, maybe we should allow them that little sense of satisfaction.

*sighs* we hear u

[Essyne]

essyne, we all luv u, u know. but did u really say dat?!

Hehe. . . Yes, tds, yes I did  .

[thalbergmad]

I say hack away.

So, you won't mind me having your heart when you die then?

Thal

[learner of liszt]

It would be interesting to know what he died of, but it's not worth a huge argument.

[Essyne]

So, you won't mind me having your heart when you die then?

Thal

As long as you don't get in line in front of the people on the Donor list, you're fine w/ me.

[mikey6]

I wish they'd solve Tchaik's death first, that would make for great drama too!

[rc]

I'm not sure how that would help anybody

Sometimes, a symbolic gesture can be more important than scientific dissection.  The man who left so much of his heart for the world in music wants to leave his physical heart in a church in the land he loved.  Though we know that the heart beats blood and emotion comes from the brain, it's a meaningful symbol no?  Then again, it's where we physically feel a lot of emotion, the heart racing in fear or around the special-someone...  Which could also be an example of something where I think the scientific analysis doesn't belong, ever hear somebody talking about love in terms of natural selection?  Even if it may be correct, give me the poetic fancy instead.  I think anyone would be nuts to destroy such a beautiful illusion.

And so we have Chopins poetic gesture.  The heart that came from Poland, wrote so much music in her honour, belongs to Poland.

[tds]

there! listen to rc, people. he hath spokenth

[general disarray]

I'm not sure how that would help anybody

Sometimes, a symbolic gesture can be more important than scientific dissection.  The man who left so much of his heart for the world in music wants to leave his physical heart in a church in the land he loved.  Though we know that the heart beats blood and emotion comes from the brain, it's a meaningful symbol no?    Even if it may be correct, give me the poetic fancy instead.  I think anyone would be nuts to destroy such a beautiful illusion.

And so we have Chopins poetic gesture.  The heart that came from Poland, wrote so much music in her honour, belongs to Poland.

That's well said, and, frankly, I agree with you, rc.

But, then again, Chopin had a technical gift -- a natural endowment -- of musical genius that enabled him to express what his cleaning woman, for one, may have felt for her own children and neighbors.  Being less talented than Chopin, she may have had no way to express it aside from simple loving and caring as best as she could.  Still, they could have been equals.

Chopin left a monumental legacy of beautiful music, but his record as a philanthropist is not so exemplary.  Or maybe, it's just undocumented.  Perhaps his cleaning woman was a greater person, spiritually.

His heart is not his essence, despite the Romantic rhetoric.  But it IS his heart and HIS wish that it rest in Poland.  I think, as you do, that it should rest undisturbed.  What killed Chopin is not important to me.    

[pianistimo]

All we need to do is go through Chopin's letters and find out if he complains that he smells like salt when he sweats.  Or, if any friends, pupils, relatives complained of his saltiness.

[thalbergmad]

Great idea.

I think Filtsch once wrote that his master "today smelt like a K F C bucket"

Thal

[drjames]

If Chopin had CF it was a really mild form (and there are such things).  It has only been in the last ten years that the life expectancy of people with CF has broken 30 and 20 years ago when I was in training it was only 26.  In the mid 1800's with no antibiotics, no respiratory treatments, no enzymes for digestion I doubt that someone with even a "typical" case of CF would live past 10.  I don't think CF killed Chopin.  But even a mild case would greatly increase his risk of acquiring TB and make it virtually impossible to survive very long with it.  Nonetheless his physical characteristics are suggestive...(of many things).  James.

[dnephi]

Does it matter at all what he died of?

Daniel

[ada]

Does it matter at all what he died of?

Well I think it's important to set the historical record straight, as I suggested earlier. Chopin is an important world figure, and the more we know about him the better. That's what history is all about: finding out about stuff that happened before our time; the quest for knowledge and all that blah.

Chopin's death may also inform his life - whatever health conditions he suffered from may have influenced his work.  Understanding his illness could put a new perspective on his music and the conditions under which it was composed.

Conversely,  looking at CF through the prism of Chopin's life can also shed light on the disease - it may add to our scientific understanding of the disease, and, as the researchers suggest, show people who have it what they can be capable of doing.

So I guess I'm with Essyne - go for it.

The man is dead after all. If his pickled heart was going to be damaged or destroyed I'd say hold off. But there's nothing to suggest that would be the case. All they need is a few cells.

[rc]

there! listen to rc, people. he hath spokenth

hahah, thanks

That's well said, and, frankly, I agree with you, rc.

But, then again, Chopin had a technical gift -- a natural endowment -- of musical genius that enabled him to express what his cleaning woman, for one, may have felt for her own children and neighbors.  Being less talented than Chopin, she may have had no way to express it aside from simple loving and caring as best as she could.  Still, they could have been equals.

Chopin left a monumental legacy of beautiful music, but his record as a philanthropist is not so exemplary.  Or maybe, it's just undocumented.  Perhaps his cleaning woman was a greater person, spiritually.

His heart is not his essence, despite the Romantic rhetoric.  But it IS his heart and HIS wish that it rest in Poland.  I think, as you do, that it should rest undisturbed.  What killed Chopin is not important to me.   

I know what you mean, I've come across quite a few people who are unsung heroes.  Regular people who work hard for their families, successful businesses that contribute to the community, even just people who do a good job day after day!

But when I think of it, I'm a firm believer in results.  I have a friend who is always talking such lofty sentiment, the guy moralizes more than anyone else I know, but the results of his actions are absolute garbage!  Who knows what lies in anothers soul, I can't tell if he's just incompetent or maybe he only says such things because they sound nice and has never really thought them through...  But the results, are not very good.

Or a father, who wants all the best for his son, but when things don't go exactly according to plan this high expectation (out of best wishes) manifests as disappointment and continually demeaning remarks.  It's something to see a kid who believes himself to be an idiot because he's heard it so often from his parents.

Maybe that's the best they could do?  but the old phrase - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Give me good results instead.  I also once knew a fellow who, by the way he talked, seemed to be very much motivated by ego...  But, somehow this self-interest was turned to good when he wants to be seen as a good teacher - he actually does a very good job in teaching people!

Well who knows, maybe all my little speculations about the people I meet are way off base.  I agree with your point about people who do the best they can with what skills they have, they all do their part to make the world a better place.  I think the efforts of regular people can add up.

Van Gogh probably could not have made much art at all unless his brother was supporting him.  Would a JS Bach be possible without the efforts of generations of musician lineage? and I believe JS also had the support of his brother after his father died.  Haydn had a generous friend who, though poor himself, let Haydn live in his attic when the young composer was homeless...

It's probably the result of many of these unsung heroes that any of the great figures in history are possible at all.

[ahinton]

Shacking up with someone who smoked 50 cigars a day probably did not do his constitution any good.

I'm waiting for an essay from you entitled "Passive Smoking in Valldemosa"...(!)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, "ada", whatever the subject and whatever one might make of it it's good to hear from you again after so long an absence (at least as far as I am aware) from this forum.

My only thoughts on the subject must centre, with some inevitability, I fear, around incipient doubts as to how any research (however well-meaning and credible it may be) on the specific cause/s of and background to Chopin's death might help us to glean more about his music and the ways in which his compositional processes developed; that's not to throw a spanner in the works of dedicated and genuine scientific research for the sake of it but to question how any such results thereof can possibly inform us usefully about Chopin the composer in ways that have not previously been open to us.

Best,

Alistair

[ada]

My only thoughts on the subject must centre, with some inevitability, I fear, around incipient doubts as to how any research (however well-meaning and credible it may be) on the specific cause/s of and background to Chopin's death might help us to glean more about his music and the ways in which his compositional processes developed; that's not to throw a spanner in the works of dedicated and genuine scientific research for the sake of it but to question how any such results thereof can possibly inform us usefully about Chopin the composer in ways that have not previously been open to us.

Best,

Alistair

There is always more to be learnt. How can you not investigate as long as something remains to be investigated?

Well, "ada", whatever the subject and whatever one might make of it it's good to hear from you again after so long an absence (at least as far as I am aware) from this forum.

haha always nice to "interact" with you too,  alistair.  I have been busy with other stuff but have missed your hintonisms, whether the topic's sorabji or semillion ... 

[ahinton]

There is always more to be learnt. How can you not investigate as long as something remains to be investigated?

There is indeed, of course; my only concern here is whether what might be learnable from this can help us in our understanding and appreciation of aspects of Chopin's musical thought-processes and I have to admit that the potential connections between such specifically exhumatory scientific investigation and the harmonic and inner-contrapuntal developments that characterised the musical language of Chopin's final years are well less than obvious, at least to an ignoramus like me.

haha always nice to "interact" with you too,  alistair.  I have been busy with other stuff but have missed your hintonisms, whether the topic's sorabji or semillion ... 

Thank you for your kind thoughts here! At the same time, I'd better offer all due apologies for anything that could be classified as "Hintonisms"; "semillon"? - well, that's what someone whose name I cannot immediately recall said is the varietal that the Bordelais sometimes blend with Sauvignon blanc to make those sometimes delicious and often very dry white wines for which the Pessac region south of Bordeaux is justly famous and what the Aussies blend with chardonnay to make a wine that can only be described as A'straaalian (doubtless you're familiar with the fabled allegation that Oz sem-chard was born by accident when some Oz winemaker spilt a load of the one into the other - which fact reminds me that someone else once claimed that Oz sem-chard was devised to justify the existence of Rolf Harris, but I thought at the time - and still do - that this is entirely unfair both to the blend in particular and to Australians in general).

I hope that all goes well with you and your plans and projects.

Best,

Alistair

[pianochick93]

I still say just leave him alone. People are saying that knowledge of how he died may help us to interpret his music more accurately. What's wrong with the way we interpret and view it now?