law of conservation and "alchemy"

[db05]

I just finished watching FullMetal Alchemist for the second time. If you're watching and haven't yet finished, there might be spoilers on this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Metal_Alchemist
Except in the end, all episodes would start with an explanation of the law of conservation. That you have to present something of equal value to gain something. In the last three episodes, this principle is called to question- if there's is a law of conservation, why is life so unfair? And why is alchemy even possible in this world (the anime world, of course! We all know it's not possible here.)

We do not always pay the same price. Sometimes we don't even get a chance to pay a price. Or sometimes we make an effort, but it was all for nothing. In a way, people in the real world get away with "alchemy"- people who achieve something with little effort. I know I did, when I was younger. I had better grades though I put in little time and effort. It was so different than now.

I will not tell you who, but some characters said,
"The world isn't perfect. That's why it's beautiful."
"But I want to believe in the law of conservation."

If the law of conservation holds, does that mean the world is perfect? If it doesn't, does it make it more beautiful? And I know a lot of this depends on your beliefs/thoughts/ perspective. That is another law- the law of attraction. How does this all fit in? Some food for thought please?

[pianistimo]

i am no scientist - but i read that when a piece of copper is heated in air - the oxygen combines with the air and then if the copper is weighed - it is found to have more mass because the oxygen is being added to it.

during the chemical change there is no detectible increase or decrease in the quantity of matter - so it's simple to add the mass of the copper to the mass of the oxygen (or subtract the starting mass of the copper from the total mass) and the measurements would be precise.

this is conservation, right?

ok.  now, with the law of attraction - you basically are dealing with two schroedinger's cats.  they are separate entities/masses but you don't know if they are alive or dead until you weigh them.   dead things always weigh more.  why is that?  there's no oxygen left?

does this make sense?  I hope it does.  now, what is the last questioN?

[debussy symbolism]

I just

If the law of conservation holds, does that mean the world is perfect? If it doesn't, does it make it more beautiful? And I know a lot of this depends on your beliefs/thoughts/ perspective. That is another law- the law of attraction. How does this all fit in? Some food for thought please?

Ummm, what? What does the conservation of mass have to do with whether or not the world is perfect? The world is perfect in the eyes of the beholder.

Pianistimo, please stick to the point.

[forzaitalia250]

I believe what you're getting at with the 'law of conversion' are the 3 laws of thermodynamics, which in short are:

1- The total amount of matter/energy in the universe always remains the same (you can't make something out of nothing or make something disappear)

2- Systems not at equilibrium move toward higher entropy (things naturally tend toward higher disorder)

3- As temperature approaches abosolute zero entropy approaches a constant minimum (entropy depends on temperature)

The first seems most pertanent to the idea you are expressing.


Although these probably the most sound laws ever formulated by scientists, there are some questions that remain.

Notably, evolution seems to defy the idea that things should become more disordered. Though the loss of entropy in this respect is only gained in another, so although it seems as if something is breaking these laws, up until this point, actually doing so has proven quite impossible.

[timothy42b]

Notably, evolution seems to defy the idea that things should become more disordered. Though the loss of entropy in this respect is only gained in another, so although it seems as if something is breaking these laws, up until this point, actually doing so has proven quite impossible.

But of course as you seem to realize evolution doesn't defy second law.

I'll give you a more clear example.  Which is more disordered, water vapor floating around the room, or a nice precise pattern of frost crystals on the windowpane?  Yet we can see with our own eyes water changing both directions - vapor to crystal and crystal to vapor.  How is this possible?

Because: the Second Law is not a vague statement of order and disorder.  It is a mathematical formula with numbers and units.  If you do the math for frost, you see no problem.  If you do the math for evolution, same thing.  Math is the language of science to the same extent notes are the language of music. 

[forzaitalia250]

seem

But of course as you seem to realize evolution doesn't defy second law.
. 

Correct... I suppose what I was trying to get at was that sometimes it may just seem as if the second law is broken. Looking back my wording didn't reflect that properly. Serves me right for righting about science past 1 am.

[concerto_love]

that full metal alchemist, I read it a lot and still dun get what's the point, actually... 

[db05]

Because: the Second Law is not a vague statement of order and disorder.  It is a mathematical formula with numbers and units.  If you do the math for frost, you see no problem.  If you do the math for evolution, same thing.  Math is the language of science to the same extent notes are the language of music. 

That is so true.

But it's not what I was trying to ask...

Does Law of Conservation in the world of matter and energy translate into the same in the world of thought? Considering that thought IS energy (Law of Attraction believers say it all the time), then it should hold. Then why do we manifest things that we don't expect?

Ummm, what? What does the conservation of mass have to do with whether or not the world is perfect? The world is perfect in the eyes of the beholder.

Basically, if the world follows a strict law, it is perfect. It has no errors, and if we can figure out what the Law implies ultimately, we can apply it to simplify our lives. Live in harmony with nature, and whatnot.

that full metal alchemist, I read it a lot and still dun get what's the point, actually... 

The series is much shorter than the manga, and is different toward the end. I am curious what the manga contains, but I'm afraid these key questions might not be reiterated there. So just watch the series, it is highly recommended. 

[pianistimo]

i don't think thought is energy.  i think it takes energy to make thought - but the thought itself?  it's zero gravity.  it can go to God like a cell phone - but at the speed of light.  it magnifies itself on God's huge billboard up there.  so and so needs help with something...etc.  how he answers so many prayers at one time is beyond me - but you know - i've had answered prayer - so I know God hears.  and, why would He ask us to pray if prayer was ineffective.

there is a verse that says that the prayers of a righteous man avail much.  and, that where two or three are gathered together - God is in their midst (meaning - it makes the prayers more powerful  - in the sense that many are wanting the same things - or praying for each other).

ok.  this is my perspective but science cannot explain SPIRIT.  the SOUL.  what happens after you die.  who can?  nobody but the dead!  that is where FAITH comes in.  if you have a mustard seed of faith - does that bring you all the money in the world?  no.  you might even be lacking the first few years.  but, hard work is what brings good things to you.  you can pretend that thoughts can do it all - but thoughts are only the beginning of works.  it's where the works begin to be thought about.  thoughts are like seeds.

the creation is said to 'groan.'  it was created perfect, but is now languishing.  humans were to be stewards over the creation (that God created with conservation in mind).  much has been wasted, squandered, polluted, killed, whatever! - and even the animals and birds are languishing for lack of food or necessary living environments.  this is not God's fault.  science doesn't always bring about a right 'spirit' within us.

if you want 'perfection' - read isaiah and in matthew - about the 'kingdom of God.'  it is said that 'the meek will in inherit THE EARTH!' - that means that the earth will be renewed - and in revelations the waters that flow from God's throne here on earth will spread out rivers of LIFE.  things can live in them again!  that the creation will be renewed in it's healthiest state.  that we will learn about conservation and how to take care of the earth instead of destroy it.  also, we will not learn about war ANYMORE!  that is perfection!

[thalbergmad]

the creation is said to 'groan.' 

Creation is not the only thing that is groaning at the moment.

Thal

[pianistimo]

zechariah 14:8 'and it will come about in that day that LIVING waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter...

ezekiel 47:8 ' these waters go out towards the eastern region and go down into the Arabah; then they go toward the sea, being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea BECOME FRESH.  and it will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live.  and there will be very many fish, for these waters go there, and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.  and it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from engedi to englaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets.  their fish according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many. 

as i see it - perfection existed when humans lived in harmony with God.  in the garden of eden.  they were also naked.  i cannot explain that part.

[thalbergmad]

in the garden of eden.  they were also naked.  i cannot explain that part.

No clothes stores?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

if you want 'perfection' - read isaiah

If you want perfection - read Playboy.

[m]

as i see it - perfection existed when humans lived in harmony with God.  in the garden of eden.  they were also naked.  i cannot explain that part.

Don't know 'bout perfection in the garden of eden. I do however know that your skills of ruining many fine threads with your disrespect, lack of any basic sense of tact and taste, and out-of-topic-religious-crap are mastered to perfection.

[thalbergmad]

Well, someone mentioned evolution and that is to pianistimo what lighting the blue touchpaper is to a firework.

Both leads to an inevitable explosion.

Thal

[aewanko]

If you want perfection - read Playboy.

pawned.

[db05]

as i see it - perfection existed when humans lived in harmony with God.  in the garden of eden.  they were also naked.  i cannot explain that part.

Okay, I'll explain it quickly, then please be more scientific! This was all before the they ate the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden - the tree of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. As I understand it, there was no good/ evil, right/ wrong, and whatever happens, happens. Innocence = perfection.

When they ate the fruit, it was a way of saying, people invented knowledge of values- good/ evil, right/ wrong, and what follows if (you think) you did something wrong? Shame! I don't think it matters that it was Satan's work. People simply evolved to create values, which turned into all sorts of laws, and if you don't follow them, shame on you.

[pianistimo]

but, there was also the tree of life.  they had a choice.  to follow the ways of God (or laws) which he was going to teach them by having a relationship with them OR they could choose for themselves what is good and evil and have no relationship with God.

how this is tasteless and ineffectual is beyond me, marik.  you come on threads and claim that i am tactless and yet most christians are a bit confused about the world of hugh heffner.  how did God plan to deal with the rest of the humans that came along - should the world remain in a state of perfection? 

some say sex is sin, therefore children would be the product of sin.  but, God created sex. apparently, haydn agreed because in 'the creation' he has the aria 'by thee with bliss' and this is before the crime and punishment for eating the apple.  everyone thinks the apple, clothes, and banishment were for sex.  what if it was just for eating the apple and they had sex wayy before that in the garden.  here's how i see it.  adam and eve went at it fairly soon.  adam fell asleep.  eve was awake.  she decided to go look at the garden alone because she was - frankly, hungry.  she wanted to bring an apple back for when adam woke up.

[db05]

but, there was also the tree of life.  they had a choice.  to follow the ways of God (or laws) which he was going to teach them by having a relationship with them OR they could choose for themselves what is good and evil and have no relationship with God.

You have to cut old Adam and Eve some slack, they didn't know good and evil, remember? There was a choice, but there was no WRONG choice.

I don't even think of eating the apple as the first sin. The first sin is technically, Cain killing Abel. But I like to believe there is no sin, except there is ignorance and people want to know more. And people like to classify things into wrong/ right. People who say, "That's a sin! This is wrong!" are barking up the wrong tree. They should learn forgiveness. "Whoever has no sin, cast the first stone." But Jesus didn't cast a stone. When you have mastered forgiveness, you won't be able to feel wronged anymore.

I think that people banished themselves out of paradise, and God is always forgiving, and there to welcome us back. But people haven't truly learned forgiveness yet. I know I still beat myself up for my mistakes. I know sometimes I feel like condemning others. Adam and Eve didn't have the Bible, and had no idea of forgiveness yet. They probably went "Well, it's your fault!" "But you ate it too!" "I hate you... You're naked!" "Well you stink!" "So do you!" And so on... Or maybe they got depressed and don't want God to see...

If, but it's a big IF... the first people came back to God and asked for -what'sitcalledthen?- what we called forgiveness, we'd be spared of all this suffering! But cut them some slack, people... They didn't have what we have now.

[thalbergmad]

most christians are a bit confused about the world of hugh heffner. 

I will send you some mags so you might educate yourself.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

God created sex.

Yeh, but he could have improved things afterwards.

Why did he not arrange for women to lay eggs? There would have been a lot less moaning and time off work.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

except there is ignorance

Nothings changed then.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

"I hate you... You're naked!"

Eve obviously would not have made it into Playboy then.

Thal

[db05]

Eve obviously would not have made it into Playboy then.

Thal

LOL!
Ah, Thal and pianistimo. Stick to topic. 

[forzaitalia250]

i don't think thought is energy.  i think it takes energy to make thought - but the thought itself?  it's zero gravity. 

Well, I mean it still follows the same laws of thermodynamcis. A person constantly releases heat as a result of doing whatever they do, thus entropy constantly increases.

On the subject of consciouness, well there is some thougth that the evolution of our brains to the complex neural networks simply enables 'consciousness," but not enough is known about the brain to really say for sure. Also, I tend to dislike the explanation, as I feel consciousness should exist eternally in some form.

[pianistimo]

but does our body release comparative amounts of heat when we are not under stress?  i don't think so. for instance, a peaceful thought could be relatively free of any type of heat.  also, some have been known to deal quite well with stress and lie on lie detectors.  they don't even use heat for lie detectors.  they use something else. electrical/neural impulse.

cat scans use the heat to find active areas of the brain - but who is to say that is the final answer?  what if some areas of the brain (or ALL of the brain) actively functions in some way or other.  neural paths can be very long and circuiotous as one gets older, right. you have these paths that are developed.

all of our senses are minutely developed and were that way since creation.  you can't find a mummy without eyeballs or fingers (unless they were gouged out or cut off).  and, we know from archeology that humans were quite adept at things wayyy back  when - otherwise - how did the pyramids get built?

as i see it - conservation is PRECISION.  you have absolute numbers that don't change.  the laws of physics are precise.  when you look at an elements chart - you see real precision.  it was decided and constant throughout.  we know this because helium is everywhere in the universe.  there is no place that helium has not been found.  and it is found in EQUAL amounts.  that is startling to anyone who wants to prove evolution true.

*to stay on topic - i must - hmmm law of conservation, alchemy, perfection.  sounds like someone is looking for a formula.  but, what if there is a much simpler formula for perfection that anyone thinks?  what if it is a thought that is not our own.  what if it is found in the life giving Holy Spirit.  the one that adam and eve rejected when they ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil (deciding for themselves what good and evil were) - instead of the tree of life.  eternal life.  that is perfection. living forever in the light of God.  the other way is complete darkness.

ps some scientists say (with complete confidence?) that other galaxies have largest number of elements that are made of heavier materials than hydrogen and helium.  i would like it proven.  when God created everything - i believe He was simple in His plan.  Therefore - I think it is entirely possible to create something similar to our galaxy with exactly the same materials but a different floor plan.

[thalbergmad]

but does our body release comparative amounts of heat when we are not under stress? 

Yes, but it is of a different nature.

You would need an auragraph to see the difference.

Thal

[pianistimo]

oh.  i see.  ok. 

sort of like a halo?

[thalbergmad]

Yes, in a way a bit like a halo.

Some people believe that the body gives off energy in different colours. Red being angry colours and yellow and gold peaceful colours.

I don't profess to know anything about it, but my exgirlfriend used to do auragraphs. She simply drew a circle then coloured it in with the energies she sensed.

Might be complete bollox and i think it is a bit of a new age thing, but some believe in it.

Thal

[db05]

Yes, in a way a bit like a halo.

Some people believe that the body gives off energy in different colours. Red being angry colours and yellow and gold peaceful colours.

I don't profess to know anything about it, but my exgirlfriend used to do auragraphs. She simply drew a circle then coloured it in with the energies she sensed.

Might be complete bollox and i think it is a bit of a new age thing, but some believe in it.

Thal

Yes, it's probably true. Auragraphs can also be used to detect illness. A sick or sad person might have a dark aura.

[forzaitalia250]

but does our body release comparative amounts of heat when we are not under stress?  i don't think so. for instance, a peaceful thought could be relatively free of any type of heat.  also, some have been known to deal quite well with stress and lie on lie detectors.  they don't even use heat for lie detectors.  they use something else. electrical/neural impulse.

The body naturally releases heat as a result of functioning. When under stress, heart rate increases supplying more blood to the brain allowing it to function faster and perform better usings more electricity. I don't know that the body releases MORE heat because of this, and it would also likely be difficult to measure. My point is, however, that in order to exist properly we release heat to satisfy entropy.

In terms of lie detectors, I believe many work by monitering heart rate, but I'm not expert.

cat scans use the heat to find active areas of the brain - but who is to say that is the final answer?  what if some areas of the brain (or ALL of the brain) actively functions in some way or other.  neural paths can be very long and circuiotous as one gets older, right. you have these paths that are developed.

Being that the brain is made up of a fairly uniform composition and that it is well known that the brain is made up of a neural network I believe it is unlikely that parts of the brain function differently. Although areas provide separate functions they all work in the same way. The difficutly is in mapping and following the sheer number connections the neurons make. It is being considered to embark on another Human Genome scale project in order to fully and properly map the brain. Such a project would surely provide great insight.

An interesting note about these neural networks is that scientists studying robotics have been able to create artificial intelligence that uses primitive neural networks to "learn." Even more interesting is that these robots need a chance to "dream" in order to make sense of the many connections the network makes much like humans. Very interesting reading on the subject can be found in Michio Kaku's Visions

all of our senses are minutely developed and were that way since creation.  you can't find a mummy without eyeballs or fingers (unless they were gouged out or cut off).  and, we know from archeology that humans were quite adept at things wayyy back  when - otherwise - how did the pyramids get built?

I believe its likely that over time we've become less aware of our senses. We no longer need as sharp a sense of sight, smell, or sound to survive, so it is quite possible they have diminished over the years. Though, it is difficult to say.

as i see it - conservation is PRECISION.  you have absolute numbers that don't change.  the laws of physics are precise.  when you look at an elements chart - you see real precision.  it was decided and constant throughout.  we know this because helium is everywhere in the universe.  there is no place that helium has not been found.  and it is found in EQUAL amounts.  that is startling to anyone who wants to prove evolution true.

I don't quite see how this counters an argument for evolution. Helium is found everywhere in the universe because of the nature of its construction. Elements heavier than hydrogen are produced once a star finishes burning its initial hydrogen fuel source. This continues down to iron. Elements heavier than that are produced during supernovae.

Also, its not truely found everwhere. The majority of matter in the universe is clumped around galaxy clusters, which are separated by vast voids. It's difficult to say that its found in equal amounts everywhere as well. However, the ratio of Helium compared to other atoms is about equal anywhere in the universe, again, because of its construction. The amount of helium produced is relative to the size of the star/number of stars in a given area.

Also, a funny note. Helium was named after Helios from the Greek word for the sun, as scientists who discovered it believed it is what the sun was made of. Ironically, after the discovery of spectral analysis, it was determined the sun was comprised of hydrogen (though eventually once the sun runs out of hydrogen it will start burning helium)

*to stay on topic - i must - hmmm law of conservation, alchemy, perfection.  sounds like someone is looking for a formula.  but, what if there is a much simpler formula for perfection that anyone thinks?  what if it is a thought that is not our own.  what if it is found in the life giving Holy Spirit.  the one that adam and eve rejected when they ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil (deciding for themselves what good and evil were) - instead of the tree of life.  eternal life.  that is perfection. living forever in the light of God.  the other way is complete darkness.

String theory strives to provide a 'perfect' formula that explains the universe perfectly (uniting Einstein's Relativity and the Standard Model of Quantum Theory) Though, practical tests to test the theory are years away due to copious amounts of energy required to test them. On the subject on this and the rest of the universe, I recommend two more of Michio Kaku's books Hyperspace and Parallel Worlds

ps some scientists say (with complete confidence?) that other galaxies have largest number of elements that are made of heavier materials than hydrogen and helium.  i would like it proven.  when God created everything - i believe He was simple in His plan.  Therefore - I think it is entirely possible to create something similar to our galaxy with exactly the same materials but a different floor plan.

Again, I'd recommend the two above books for discussion on this subject. The reason some galaxies have greater amounts of larger elements is simply due to the number of supernovae that have occured to produce them. It is also rather difficult to create a galaxy no matter what you have to build it with 

[timothy42b]

i don't think thought is energy.  i think it takes energy to make thought - but the thought itself?  it's zero gravity. 

For most of us, thought is something that happens in the brain, when axons dump neurotransmitters across the synapses.  In other words, something physical.

But for pp that causes a logical problem.  Man is physical, God is spiritual, and there is no contact point.

So to solve this problem, pp asserts with no basis whatsoever that man has a spirit part that does his thinking for him, therefore this spirit part can interact with the spiritual God.  There is no evidence for this assertion, she makes it because she needs it to be true.

[db05]

So to solve this problem, pp asserts with no basis whatsoever that man has a spirit part that does his thinking for him, therefore this spirit part can interact with the spiritual God.  There is no evidence for this assertion, she makes it because she needs it to be true.

Harsh, but true.

I don't see why there must be conflict between religion and evolution. And science for that matter. I live in a mostly Christian country, and studied in a Catholic schoool, and there was no problem with science class. My old science teacher would say that the more she learned science, the more she saw the greatness of God.

Ma'am pianistimo, if you can just see that God IS the universe, you can avoid the trap of being a target for Sir Thal. And it's more PC, in a way. I guess if I put it in religious terms, I'm asking if God is just. Because there is injustice, and many things that seem to contradict the idea that God is good. LOL, what if God was one of us??

Thoughts may not be matter, but energy. As such, they'd still fall under the law of conservation. Consider prayer. Does it have power? Some believers would say yes. On the other hand, do curses work?