Problems with my Sixths, thirds etc. technique

[newsgroupeuan]

I have just been thinking,  and I've found that I just cannot do passages in the form :

https://www.geocities.com/super_ardua/
[Edit: they have been moved to this page because they don't display on forum]

They sort of clump together and the rythym is distorted,  and in the second one my wrist hurts along with the underside of my hand.

Any advice?

[JK]

A good way to solve this problem (a problem that I think almost everyone encounters at some time!) is to play them slowly as broken thirds/sixths. For example in the first one FAEGFA. Another way is to repeat each third/sixth twice, this will help your fingers to land together. You could also try playing them stacato.

It is also vital in passages like this that you make sure that you work out a fingering that suits your hands well and that you try and keep the wrist, arm and hand as free and relaxed as possible. Also doing slow scales in thirds and sixths is very good.

[newsgroupeuan]

I have tried this - I can play both the above excerpts,  but,  for example in the first the e-g sometimes doesn't play(make a sound) or is shortened.

As for the second one,  no matter how much I relax I find that it puts strain on the tendons on the underside of my hand and my finger joints.  Is it a hand position problem?

My fingers are quite long (reach about 11th).

[newsgroupeuan]

How would you finger the second excerpt : I think my fingering may be unsuitable : I'm doing RH 1-3 2-4 1-3 2-5

[JK]

The fingering for the second one I personally find very aukward, I have very small hands so my fingering might not work for you, I would do: RH 1-4,2-5,1-4,2-5,1-4,2-5,1-4,2-5 this would then lead to 1-3,2-4 on the next group. The only other thing that I can think of suggesting is playing this very lightly so that  sometimes the notes might not even completely sound, don't try too hard to play all the notes!

As for the first one I don't know what else you can do except keep on doing what you are now and practice really slowly! How fast is this one?

Good luck!

[pianiststrongbad]

i know that the second passage is from Liszt's transcendental etudes.  I also know that if you can't play those it is no big deal, because they go so incredibly fast, and very few can play them well.   However if you are determined, I would recommend having a completely loose hand and and practicing them slowly.  

[f0bul0us]

With the second passage, you may be trying to use too much energy from your fingers instead of just dropping them down with your wrist. My teacher has done this piece before, and is teaching it to me now. Try this:

1.) 1-4, your hand should be positioned like you're playing an octave with those fingers. Point your wrist to the right.
2.) 2-5, using your wrist, lean into each key so you're not putting any strain on your hand.
3.) 1-4, bring the wrist back to starting position
4.) 2-5, leaning in once again with your wrist.

The easiest way to practice this, is to repeat the first four groups of sixths in the piece continuously in p then f dynamic. Since this is your first piece that involves sixths, you may want to practice the first two sixths as a trill, doing only those two notes for the duration of the bar just to get warmed up for what's ahead.

The rest becomes basic note reading. With this method, you won't have to spend as much time building up the strength you need to play the passage fast because your using less energy in your forearm, where all your finger muscles are. The most important thing, however is that you don't attempt any of the 6ths with fatigued fingers.

Good luck!

[donjuan]

There are only a handful on Earth who know how to perform "Feux Follets" (Transcendental Etude No5) in the manner in which it is intended.  Richter cheats when he plays, and the result is an uproarious applause.  Why cant you do the same?  Forget about playing EVERY SINGLE NOTE, and just make sure the melody is heard, and the tops of the RH are heard.  Whatever happens in the 6ths, 5ths, whatever is really not too significant.  Unless you are doing this piece for an exam, I wouldn't worry..
donjuan

[newsgroupeuan]

 Why cant you do the same?  Forget about playing EVERY SINGLE NOTE, and just make sure the melody is heard, and the tops of the RH are heard.  Whatever happens in the 6ths, 5ths, whatever is really not too significant.  Unless you are doing this piece for an exam, I wouldn't worry..

I'm trying that !

But I'm also trying to play it with the sixths as well - otherwise it would just miss the point!!

Best wishes

(ps.  got the first one - was trying to use fingers only,  which was wrong approach)

[Terry-Piano]

Yup i'm a 4 year self thought pianist ... and chopins studies in thirds and sixths i cant quite pull off at the right speed.... my hand just blocks... i use the 1-4 , 2-5 fingering since its seems the most natural way... id like more suggestions...

[f0bul0us]

Yup i'm a 4 year self thought pianist ... and chopins studies in thirds and sixths i cant quite pull off at the right speed.... my hand just blocks... i use the 1-4 , 2-5 fingering since its seems the most natural way... id like more suggestions...

Unless you know quite a bit about theory (history, Harmony, counterpoint and analysis) you really should have a teacher for the Etudes. Hey! Good luck with the 1-4, 2-5 fingering on the study in thirds. (1-3, 2-5 is also accepted. 1-3,2-4 however, what are the words I'm looking for? Ah! "Hell no"  

Good luck!  

[f0bul0us]

Do you mean 1-4, 2-5? If so, yes the thirds are more crisp but requires more strength training (unless you use the method of playing I explained above). 1-3,2-4 is just morally wrong.

[donjuan]

Do you mean 1-4, 2-5?

no, I mean 1-5, 2-4
it's no type-o. try it!  It is physically easier than 1-4, 2-5, and gets the same bite.

donjuan

[f0bul0us]

If my hands were as large as E.T's, this new fingering might not hurt.  :-/

[donjuan]

Ill bet the only reason the fingering hurts is because you are trying to connect the thirds.  The fingering is designed to make it impossible for you to blend the two thirds, making the music more crisp.  At fast seed, you will find my fingering to be more comfortable.  

but, everyones hands are different, so maybe it wont work for you...
donjuan  

[newsgroupeuan]

Do I actually have to play thn smoothly to get them legato,  or can I give an illusion of legato instead?

[donjuan]

The illusion is what is most important.  making music on the piano in itself, is an illusion.
donjuan

[f0bul0us]

I agree...if we were all anti-realists.

[super_ardua]

I think the secret to these sixths is to have a nimble fifth finger.