Prejudice against Scotland?

[ahinton]

That is because the pond life of the World wants to be in ours.

No, Thal, it doesn't; people are leaving UK in their droves regardless of who is entering that agglomeration of countries that is UK - and they have been doing so for quite some time; it is largely because they are getting fed up with aspects of living in UK and those do not in the main include questions of immigration to UK.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Indeed, my part of the Country has gone downhill rapidly.

The Labour Party's brilliant idea to open pubs all day has not helped. We are also the dumping ground for Albanian pimps.

So why don't you at least consider leaving and moving to somewhere more amenable to you? (not necessaarily Albania)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

No, Thal, it doesn't; people are leaving UK in their droves regardless of who is entering that agglomeration of countries that is UK - and they have been doing so for quite some time; it is largely because they are getting fed up with aspects of living in UK and those do not in the main include questions of immigration to UK.

Perhaps, but one aspect of living in the UK is feeling like a foreigner in your own Country. The amount of people leaving has increased over the last 10 years as has immigration.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

So why don't you at least consider leaving and moving to somewhere more amenable to you? (not necessaarily Albania)...

I do consider, but i don't see why i should.

I put in an offer of £5 to buy Iceland and it is being considered by their government.

Thal

[ahinton]

Perhaps, but one aspect of living in the UK is feeling like a foreigner in your own Country. The amount of people leaving has increased over the last 10 years as has immigration.

OK - I can accept your feeling about that, but (a) what, if anything, do you believe should or could be done about thatt and (b) is it necessarily a bad thing in any case? I write this having lived as a foreigner in England for many years but also as someone who might as easily feel like a foreigner were I to move back to Scotland (and who is also by no means bothered about feeling as though in someone else's country following a move to France)...

I'd be wary of any more pilgrimages to Hay-on-Wye if I were you, given its Welsh connections (although you remain most welcome to visit The Sorabji Archive on the way to or from there)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I do consider, but i don't see why i should.

I put in an offer of £5 to buy Iceland and it is being considered by their government.

I suspect that they'll turn it down; after all, pounds are no longer worth the Bank of England on which they are hardly even written by forgers any more...

Best,

Alistair

[healdie]

Perhaps, but one aspect of living in the UK is feeling like a foreigner in your own Country. The amount of people leaving has increased over the last 10 years as has immigration.

Thal

I know I hate modern Britain the legal system is crazy they seem to protect the criminals more than the victums if a burgular breaks into your house and he trips and hurts himself then he can sue you for him falling over

I was reading in the paper the other day about a Rapist who got 7 years in prison he will probably get let out in 3 for good behaivour

I don't blame all of those Brits for leaving if was older i certanly would consider it

[general disarray]

but (a) what, if anything, do you believe should or could be done about thatt
Best,

Alistair

"thatt"?  Possibly a remnant of Scottish dialect?

[thalbergmad]

(a) what, if anything, do you believe should or could be done about thatt and (b) is it necessarily a bad thing in any case? I write this having lived as a foreigner in England for many years but also as someone who might as easily feel like a foreigner were I to move back to Scotland (and who is also by no means bothered about feeling as though in someone else's country following a move to France)...

a) We need to regain control of our borders and the right to kick out illegals and loafers. Unfortunately this will not be possible as Labour has singed away too many of our rights to Europe. Instead of paying £12,000 a month to house ungratefull Afghans, that money could be better spent in sending them back to the dungheap from whence they came.

b) We need to make a distinction between those that come to work and those that come to sponge. As a Country, it has been a grave error to allow millions in to do jobs when we had millions on benefits. Now that we are in recession, how many more are now going to be on benefits as the job market has dried up?

You came to England, you worked and you paid taxes. There are huge amounts that do not and we need to stem the flood of more crap awaiting for empty lorries at Calais.

Thal

[argerichfan]

It may have escaped your knowledge...but the Scottish Gaelic is the only one spoken now.

Several years ago my best mate and I were drinking in a dark pub in Oban, and next to our table were what looked like fishermen (from the Inner Hebrides?) speaking a language we didn't recognize.  We assumed correctly, then, that it was Scottish Gaelic? 

[thalbergmad]

Well, it is possible they were talking English and you did not recognise it. That is possible with Oban Fisherman, ferry captains and drunk coach drivers.

Oban is a pretty town, but the only reason i ever go there is to get the ferry to Iona or Fingals Cave. Fingals Cave is sooo beautiful, it almost inspired mendelssohn to write music.

Thal

[argerichfan]

Well, it is possible they were talking English and you did not recognise it. That is possible with Oban Fisherman, ferry captains and drunk coach drivers.

Well I suppose, but even considering our advanced state of inebriation, neither of us could recognize even one word. 

Hear, hear, now don't be trashing Mendelssohn... I love his stuff, especially the choral works. 

[ahinton]

a) We need to regain control of our borders and the right to kick out illegals and loafers. Unfortunately this will not be possible as Labour has singed away too many of our rights to Europe. Instead of paying £12,000 a month to house ungratefull Afghans, that money could be better spent in sending them back to the dungheap from whence they came.

But who's this we? Our government is full of immigrants too - and why not? Britain, like France, Spain and Portugal, obsessively colonised and that was the principal reason why so many people from foreign lands turned up on our shores - now there are additional reasons for more such people to do so, just as many Brits are quitting them.

b) We need to make a distinction between those that come to work and those that come to sponge. As a Country, it has been a grave error to allow millions in to do jobs when we had millions on benefits. Now that we are in recession, how many more are now going to be on benefits as the job market has dried up?

Soon it won't matter. Clearly, our government now believes that the only way out of recession is to get into far more debt than anyone has ever witnessed here and, once all that is under way, it won't matter a jot who does what work or whether any such initial work dries up - in fact nothing at all will matter economically, for the present proposals will almost certainly threaten to pull down many other countries besides UK.

You came to England, you worked and you paid taxes. There are huge amounts that do not and we need to stem the flood of more crap awaiting for empty lorries at Calais.

I came to England, I worked (and still do), I'm not paid much for what I do and I would accept that the government (were it to catch up with me) would likely consider me to be a foreigner wastrel as I don't pay much tax and almost everything that I do has in the fiorst place to be sponsored by (a) people's willingness to lose money and (b) intellectual property laws without the existence of which my indebtedness would be immense; ironical, that, since that's exaxctly what the government is itself now doing, though I make no claim to have taught it a lesson...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

But who's this we? Our government is full of immigrants too - and why not?

Simple, because they will put immigrants first.

That is why you cannot get a council house if you are white and can speak English.

Thal

[ahinton]

Simple, because they will put immigrants first.

That is why you cannot get a council house if you are white and can speak English.

I don't want a council house actually, but that is not, of course, you point; mine, however - which you may not fully have grasped - was that the UK government includes quite a few immigrants and, by that, I do not exclude the white ones - Scots, Spanish, etc. Do also bear in mind that members of parliament in Britain are only so by reason of having been voted into office by members of the British electorate and, whilst a good many of those voters are not obviously "British" other than by nationality, it does not at all follow that people vote only for those of the same nationality. You also tend to ignore our colonising past, perhaps because it might seem inconvenient to you to have to accept that if Brits go and colonise in foreign countries, some of their inhabitants may end up in Britain later (although the same, of course, goes for other inveterate past colonisers such as France, Spain, the Netherlands and Portugal). But then I suppose that my most fundamental disagreement of emphasis with you here is that I do not regard anywhere as "my" country - not the one in which I reside, of which I own almost nothing, nor the one of my birth, of which I own nothing at all, nor the one I propose to emigrate to, where all I own is a building plot. I have certain voting rights in UK by reason of my citizenship but do not see those as conferring upon me any kind of possession rights that might justify my referring to it as "my" country.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You also tend to ignore our colonising past, perhaps because it might seem inconvenient to you to have to accept that if Brits go and colonise in foreign countries, some of their inhabitants may end up in Britain later

Of course, but they have to be of value and have skills that are required. In addition we are getting immigrants from a lot of Countries that we have not colonised or bombed. I do not remember colonising Poland.

Even so, why must the present generation continue to suffer for the deeds of their ancestors?

It should be clear to the most feeble of brains that we need to cap immigration and have the right to stop the thousands of rapists, murderers and drug addicts waiting at French ports for their next chance. We have not got the infastructure to cope with any more.

The difierence between you and me appears to be that I am English and proud of it. I am sick that my Country has all but been destroyed floods of pond.

Thal

[ahinton]

Of course, but they have to be of value and have skills that are required. In addition we are getting immigrants from a lot of Countries that we have not colonised or bombed. I do not remember colonising Poland.

No, that's true in both cases, of course but, since you mention Poland, don't forget that we got a swathe of immigrants from Poland following World War II, many of whom had fought on the same side as Britain and the more recent influx of immigrants from there and other European countries has been made possible by those countries' membership of EC. Many immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere have come to Britain and been prepared to do jobs that many Brits do not want and will not do; the NHS alone would, for example, have gotten to an immeasurably more parlous state without some of these people.

Even so, why must the present generation continue to suffer for the deeds of their ancestors?

I didn't suggest that they should; I just accept, as you should also do, that such is one inevitable consequence of colonising activity.

It should be clear to the most feeble of brains that we need to cap immigration and have the right to stop the thousands of rapists, murderers and drug addicts waiting at French ports for their next chance. We have not got the infastructure to cope with any more.

Sensible immigration limits must of course be in place but assessment of the appropriate figures for it should take on board factors including the rate of emigration at any given time; furthermore, no one can with certainty predict whether any immigrant to, emigrant from or resident of any country is a rapist, murderer or drug addict as such status must be determined only as a consequence of upheld convictions in courts of law.

The difierence between you and me appears to be that I am English and proud of it. I am sick that my Country has all but been destroyed floods of pond.

I would instead say that the difference (what is a "difierence"?) between us is that I prioritise pride in what and who I am and do (insofar as I can be at all proud of either!) over pride in any particular country.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Many immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere have come to Britain and been prepared to do jobs that many Brits do not want and will not do; the NHS alone would, for example, have gotten to an immeasurably more parlous state without some of these people.

As long as we keep showering our workshy with benefits we will not be able to get them to fill jobs. We do not need immigrants when we have so many sitting on their arses.

Many from the Indian subcontinent have helped the NHS, but also there is a considerable difference between qualifications obtained abroad and here in the UK. This has caused a lot of problems in the NHS.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

furthermore, no one can with certainty predict whether any immigrant to, emigrant from or resident of any country is a rapist, murderer or drug addict as such status must be determined only as a consequence of upheld convictions in courts of law.

1 in 10 of our prison population were not born here, but immigrants do not make up 1 in 10 of our population. We let in known criminals from EU Countries and we have not the power to do anything unless they commit further crimes in this Country.

More immigrants = More crime.

Thal

[ahinton]

As long as we keep showering our workshy with benefits we will not be able to get them to fill jobs. We do not need immigrants when we have so many sitting on their arses.

But, as no doubt you well appreciate, "our workshy" included many so-called "indigenous" Brits long before immigration increased and it still does include a substantial proportion of such Brits.

Many from the Indian subcontinent have helped the NHS, but also there is a considerable difference between qualifications obtained abroad and here in the UK.

That is, of couse, true.

This has caused a lot of problems in the NHS.

Quite how much of a problem it has caused in the NHS I cannot say, but I was not talking about well or inadequately qualified doctors, consultants and surgeons but about those people from the Indian subcontinent who undertake the far more menial but nevertheless vitally necessary jobs within that service that must be done if that service is to continue to run properly and which many Brits have been unwilling to do.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

1 in 10 of our prison population were not born here, but immigrants do not make up 1 in 10 of our population. We let in known criminals from EU Countries and we have not the power to do anything unless they commit further crimes in this Country.

More immigrants = More crime.

Whilst what you write here may arguably not be entirely fatuous, I repeat that criminals cannot reasonably be publicly branded as such until convicted by a court of law. You would need to cite specific provable examples of known - i.e. already convicted - criminals from other EU countries being officially admitted to Britian in order to prove your point and, while so doing, you might like to consider how many similarly convicted criminals are being allowed to emigrate from UK to other EU countries and elsewhere, similarly unchecked by the authorities in Britain or those countries to which they emigrate.

Your "more immigrants = more crime" is both racist and not scientifically proven; of course some immigrants will have committed crimes before they enter UK, but that is the same wherever anyone moves between countries. I sense that you are less than comfortable with so many people moving from one country to another rather than simply being concerned about the kinds of people who come to UK.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Your "more immigrants = more crime" is both racist and not scientifically proven; of course some immigrants will have committed crimes before they enter UK, but that is the same wherever anyone moves between countries. I sense that you are less than comfortable with so many people moving from one country to another rather than simply being concerned about the kinds of people who come to UK.

Playing the "racist" card is often used by politicians when they are in a tricky situation and they do not want to admit problems exist. It is a "sweep it under the carpet" method which simply covers up a problem.

There is no need to invoke science, just simple statistics. Just the same situation occurs when crime increases wherever Gipsy camps are set up. One such camp appeared in a town close to me and all of a sudden petty theft, muggings and street crime went through the roof. Of course, any politician would immediately play the race card and refuse to link the two together, whereas it is blindingly obvious to all but the most simple.

I do not necessarily blame the immigrants themselves, but when you let people into the country from all different areas of the World, you are creating a witches cauldron which does not need much to spark it off.

When we let in people from Countries where stabbing someone in the buttocks is almost a term of endearment, we are simply asking for problems.

Thal

[ahinton]

Playing the "racist" card is often used by politicians when they are in a tricky situation and they do not want to admit problems exist. It is a "sweep it under the carpet" method which simply covers up a problem.

There is no need to invoke science, just simple statistics. Just the same situation occurs when crime increases wherever Gipsy camps are set up. One such camp appeared in a town close to me and all of a sudden petty theft, muggings and street crime went through the roof. Of course, any politician would immediately play the race card and refuse to link the two together, whereas it is blindingly obvious to all but the most simple.

I do not necessarily blame the immigrants themselves, but when you let people into the country from all different areas of the World, you are creating a witches cauldron which does not need much to spark it off.

When we let in people from Countries where stabbing someone in the buttocks is almost a term of endearment, we are simply asking for problems.

So would you indeed advocate (and have advocated) keeping most if not all people within the coutries where they were born? - placing massive legal embargos on immigration and emigration? If so, you should have been around centuries ago to tell that one to the colonists...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

So would you indeed advocate (and have advocated) keeping most if not all people within the coutries where they were born? - placing massive legal embargos on immigration and emigration?

No, I would not advocate that, but as a Country we should have control over who comes in and should have the power to remove those that come without permission.

Thal

[kaitlyn7]

It may have escaped your knowledge...but the Scottish Gaelic is the only one spoken now. If you are referring to the old Ulster Scot's language, that the Picts spoke...that died out with the Picts. It is now a "dead language", like Latin.

G.W.K

your wrong there GWK, there are still a number of people who speak ulster scot, its dying out, true enough, buts its not a "dead language" yet, there are still newspapers written in ulster scot.

kaitlyn

[G.W.K]

your wrong there GWK, there are still a number of people who speak ulster scot, its dying out, true enough, buts its not a "dead language" yet, there are still newspapers written in ulster scot.

kaitlyn

Really? I never knew that, I stand corrected then. However, the majority of people who choose to speak another language (aside from English) in Scotland, will speak Scottish Gaelic.

thal: that "Rab C Nesbit" clip is slightly out of date now. Although Govan (in Glasgow) is a dump occupied by neds, most Glaswegians speak more coherently.

G.W.K

[ahinton]

No, I would not advocate that, but as a Country we should have control over who comes in and should have the power to remove those that come without permission.

That's fair enough as far as it goes, but don't forget that the Scots (pace the thread topic) don't actually need such legal permission, any more than does anyone else from EC.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, we have lost control of our borders to EU residents which is a problem.

Soon the EU will probably include half of the World so things will not get any better.

Thal