Which is rarer - an artist or a virtuoso?

[opus10no2]

I feel the assesment of pianism can be broken into 3 elements.

1 - Physical ability - coordination and speed. Largely measurable by use of a stopwatch and an ear for accuracy and evenness.

2 - Mental processing ability - memorizing. Measurable by quantity and complexity of repertoire.

3 - Creative/Artistic ability - immeasurable but popularity has to be there or the idea dies.

Now, I've heard people saying excellence in one area is less common than others, but really, is that so?

[keypeg]

Creative/Artistic ability - immeasurable but popularity has to be there or the idea dies.

I don't understand?  Why must popularity exist in order for artistry to exist?  How can a piece be played without artistry?

[opus10no2]

In almost all cases, we hear music because it has been exposed to and approved by many ears before ours.

I'm saying the only half-way sure method of knowing if you'll like a piece/performer is if many others have.

[db05]

There are many, many artists. 

But "virtuoso" is a lot of popularity, luck and the thickness to call yourself/ let yourself be called that. Some people attach the word "virtuoso" to themselves to show off. Reminds me of the Hanon book... Hmmm... 

[cmg]

I feel the assesment of pianism can be broken into 3 elements.

1 - Physical ability - coordination and speed. Largely measurable by use of a stopwatch and an ear for accuracy and evenness.

2 - Mental processing ability - memorizing. Measurable by quantity and complexity of repertoire.

3 - Creative/Artistic ability - immeasurable but popularity has to be there or the idea dies.

Now, I've heard people saying excellence in one area is less common than others, but really, is that so?

I don't understand what you mean in this final sentence of your post.

[opus10no2]

Some consider being able to play fast so common, some consider large repertoires dime-a-dozen, and some think that artistic inspiration is just as common.

[javacisnotrecognized]

Some consider being able to play fast so common, some consider large repertoires dime-a-dozen, and some think that artistic inspiration is just as common.

For what it's worth, I think that

• Pianists with huge techniques are a dime a dozen; most people seem to be well trained/talented technically these days. What is less common, IMO, is people who can carefully many things going on at the same time (For example, try finding me someone who can play two voices in one hand each with different rhythms, dynamics, etc)
• I don't know how what you consider a large repitoire, however it seems post people know a few chopin etudes, a ballade or two, some beethoven sonatas, maybe they try to fit in some bach somewhere if they know enough to care.
• Artistic inspiration: I think most concerting pianists are "inspired" to the point where they can give a performance that calls for a standing ovation and a great review. However, I think that the pianists who play in a way such that, even after everyone has left the concert, you are still sitting there considering what to do with music, life etc. are all but gone

I don't know how it relates to your topical question however. I had the understanding that an artist who uses the piano as a medium for their art is a virtuoso, and that a person who plays the piano, to however high a degree, is a pianist.

[rob47]

Re: Which is rarer - an artist or a virtuoso?


Richter

[thierry13]

Re: Which is rarer - an artist or a virtuoso?


Richter

Soooooo well said.

[opus10no2]

It seems a little unlikely that the greatest of physical talents are found alongside cognitive and creative ones.

Is Usain Bolt hiding some legendary musical talent? Doubtful


Amusing answer with Richter there, he obviously had a degree of all 3 but certainly not the greatest physical gift.

For what it's worth, I think that

• Pianists with huge techniques are a dime a dozen; most people seem to be well trained/talented technically these days. What is less common, IMO, is people who can carefully many things going on at the same time (For example, try finding me someone who can play two voices in one hand each with different rhythms, dynamics, etc)

It depends HOW huge a technique were talking about, surely the top 5 in the world today are one in a billion? and the hugest is one in over 6 billion.

I'm simply saying the absolute elite is extremely rare in any discipline/talent, and pointing out how near impossible it is that 2 very different talents like that can be found in one person.[/list]

[gyzzzmo]

Being 'artistic' or a 'virtuoso' is only relative, thats why this is all abit nonsense.
There will ALWAYS be very few virtuoso or artists because you compare with the rest, whether the 'rest' could already be called virtuoso's or not. The 'best' are always few, else they wouldnt be the best.

Btw to comment your 3 points.... The second point probably doesnt belong there, because both technique and artistry are both mental (and other) processes

gyzzzmo

[javacisnotrecognized]

It depends HOW huge a technique were talking about, surely the top 5 in the world today are one in a billion? and the hugest is one in over 6 billion.

There is the implicit assumption here that there is one person who has *The greatest technique*. I think there may be some upper limit, dependant on how fast one can physically move the various etc. Also, what criterion are you judging technique on? (I mean in general, it's well known you judge by the stopwatch) How well you execute thirds? Octaves? Left hand, right hand? Also, as mentioned above, is not articulation an aspect of technique? Controlling multiple voices? Tone production? (Although some do not believe in tone and some do)

I think these questions brush up against what exactly technique, inspiration, artistry really are, in precise terms.

[gyzzzmo]

If Frans Liszt or Chopin would have been born in China 30 years ago, would they still be considered 'remarkable', compared to other 'virtuoso' and 'artists' these days? 

[opus10no2]

The matter of tone and voicing is too musical to be put under physical...

The physical all comes back to how fast the fingers can move. Articulation, accuracy and evenness are byproducts of this.

Each digit and hand have different capabilities, so each piece becomes like a different olympic event.

There is an interesting point to be made regarding the upper limit...and this is the cause of all the greatest technique debates; there are quite a few at the top who seem to be at such a level to make it difficult to distinguish between them.

[javacisnotrecognized]

The matter of tone and voicing is too musical to be put under physical...

The physical all comes back to how fast the fingers can move. Articulation, accuracy and evenness are byproducts of this.

I agree with this, basically, but consider that playing a run legatissimo and playing it detache are very different things, and not everyone has the ability to do both. One "trick" known to the virtuosi of that 1900's was that in a concert hall, you leave imperceptible gaps between the notes in fast runs, so that the echo from the hall will not muddle the notes together. In the recording studio, it would be played more legato. I am specifically about ability to remain objective here - not how it is used. Consider Cortot: Famous for his wonderous tone at the piano, but questionable in terms of speed/accuracy. Is the mere fact that he can produce a tone that nobody else (Or very few) can a question of the subjective, or objective?

[opus10no2]

That something is unique can be said objectively to a degree, to say it's good is a different matter.

[javacisnotrecognized]

Yes, but which of those three categories do they fit into ?

[opus10no2]

I'd say the artistic creative side...each player finds their own sound using their ears, their hands play a part but it's supposed to be the ears in control.

[mostlyclassical]

Doesn't these days "virtuoso" have more of a negative meaning? As opposed to "artist", who I guess is possibly a virtuoso as well, but even more than that.

[richard black]

Doesn't these days "virtuoso" have more of a negative meaning?

You remind me of the seasoned, senior performer who said to me one time, 'If I hear about one more 'brilliant young virtuoso' I'm going to hit someone!'. I think he was definitely more interested in finding an artist.

[a-sharp]

Artists.

[tds]

people who live a truly healthy life is rarer, virtuoso/artist or not

[communist]

an artist could be anything from a Bassoonist to a chef. but a master bassoonist is a different from just any bassoonist

[loonbohol]

I have taught and asked that question before and this is my stand..

THis statistics should refer to the people who play the piano regularly and not people who know how to play the piano but never plays it.



Artist and virtuoso are sometimes immiscible let us say for every 100 pepole who knows how to play the piano.   One out of 8 of those pianist (This is estimated through data from the internet and some intuition) have played at least two etudes

Note that even Chopin Etude Op.10 no.9 is already very hard

And out of those people who played an etude one out of seven of them have standard virtuosity.
and out of the middle virtuoso people one out of nine of them are as good are super-virtuoso

making this equation:
     1/8 x 1/7 x 1/9 =1/504 ( or one out of 504 pianists are as good as Yundi lee )

this is based on a certain statement of a person about the twelve transcendental etudes by Franz Liszt that only five at a time in the whole world can play one of the twelve etudes...
Then calculate how many piano's steinway can make in a year. Multiplied by the number of piano makers mentioned in Wikipedia (x2)
 and multiply them by sixty then divide it by the number of people on this world which in the number of people in this world was already divided into four...
Giving the result that there are currently 220,000 to 276,000 piano's existing in this world at this time therefore if we divide the number of people to the number of piano's then we can conclude that there are 26000~32000 pianists in the world so then what can we conclude then let us determine how many of us have played an etude completely...
Let us make a fixed nuber median of 29,500

29,500 x 1/8=   There are 3,687 people who had played at least two etude.....

Then we should determine how many near to virtuoso pianist are there in the world

3,687 x 1/7= There are 527 people who are as good as Yundi Lee

THen out of these virtuoso pianists then we should determine the Franz Liszt mode....

527 x 1/9 = There are 58 and one half people who are as good as Franz Liszt (THe other half is me)....

Talking of creativity then the odds of getting an I.Q above 130 is one is to 25.
This is based from an account in the internet.
Then to the number of composers in this world according to one accounts 17,000 therefore

1/25 x 17,000 = 680 composers with I.Q. above 135 of Gifted  ( Kajiura Yuki is one of them)

then If we really need to find the odds of very good composers being super virtuoso's are

(58/29500) x (680/17000)= 39440/501500000

I had a hard time to simplify:

Then we can conclude that One out of 12,040 pianists are very gifted composres and super virtuoso's. I wish I was the one and you too would have wished the same as we'll
we are not talking about the number of people in the world

WAIT!   What are the odd's of high skilled pianist that they will join the conservatory..... or will have a job related to music..
Simple then the odds are 1/16~25 and we will fix it to one is 1/25....

Then the chance of Franz Liszt existing today would be one out of 240,800 pianists...
Lizst phenomenon.

[tds]

I have taught and asked that question before and this is my stand..

THis statistics should refer to the people who play the piano regularly and not people who know how to play the piano but never plays it.



Artist and virtuoso are sometimes immiscible let us say for every 100 pepole who knows how to play the piano.   One out of 8 of those pianist (This is estimated through data from the internet and some intuition) have played at least two etudes

Note that even Chopin Etude Op.10 no.9 is already very hard

And out of those people who played an etude one out of seven of them have standard virtuosity.
and out of the middle virtuoso people one out of nine of them are as good are super-virtuoso

making this equation:
     1/8 x 1/7 x 1/9 =1/504 ( or one out of 504 pianists are as good as Yundi lee )

this is based on a certain statement of a person about the twelve transcendental etudes by Franz Liszt that only five at a time in the whole world can play one of the twelve etudes...
Then calculate how many piano's steinway can make in a year. Multiplied by the number of piano makers mentioned in Wikipedia (x2)
 and multiply them by sixty then divide it by the number of people on this world which in the number of people in this world was already divided into four...
Giving the result that there are currently 220,000 to 276,000 piano's existing in this world at this time therefore if we divide the number of people to the number of piano's then we can conclude that there are 26000~32000 pianists in the world so then what can we conclude then let us determine how many of us have played an etude completely...
Let us make a fixed nuber median of 29,500

29,500 x 1/8=   There are 3,687 people who had played at least two etude.....

Then we should determine how many near to virtuoso pianist are there in the world

3,687 x 1/7= There are 527 people who are as good as Yundi Lee

THen out of these virtuoso pianists then we should determine the Franz Liszt mode....

527 x 1/9 = There are 58 and one half people who are as good as Franz Liszt (THe other half is me)....

Talking of creativity then the odds of getting an I.Q above 130 is one is to 25.
This is based from an account in the internet.
Then to the number of composers in this world according to one accounts 17,000 therefore

1/25 x 17,000 = 680 composers with I.Q. above 135 of Gifted  ( Kajiura Yuki is one of them)

then If we really need to find the odds of very good composers being super virtuoso's are

(58/29500) x (680/17000)= 39440/501500000

I had a hard time to simplify:

Then we can conclude that One out of 12,040 pianists are very gifted composres and super virtuoso's. I wish I was the one and you too would have wished the same as we'll
we are not talking about the number of people in the world

WAIT!   What are the odd's of high skilled pianist that they will join the conservatory..... or will have a job related to music..
Simple then the odds are 1/16~25 and we will fix it to one is 1/25....

Then the chance of Franz Liszt existing today would be one out of 240,800 pianists...
Lizst phenomenon.

 

[rob47]

data from the internet and some intuition

one out of 504 pianists are as good as Yundi lee

Wikipedia

There are 58 and one half people who are as good as Franz Liszt

[richard black]

people who know how to play the piano but never plays it.

That's the definition of a gentleman, and it's a rarer beast than either artist or virtuoso. Or even than a statistician.

[loonbohol]

That's the definition of a gentleman, and it's a rarer beast than either artist or virtuoso. Or even than a statistician.

Do you ever watched a Discovery Channel show called Million 2 one?

We'll It inspired me to study statistics.
And our High school curicullum has it.