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Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition (Read 18024 times)

Offline loonbohol

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Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
« on: December 07, 2008, 04:57:39 AM »
As I type this letters in the forum...
My hands seems to be lifted to the air...

We are talking about winter wind etude or Chopin Etude Op.25 no.11
It is very complicated and it is hurting my fingers ...
But I have to force myself... I wan't to be Franz Liszt..
I am crazy already!

I have hurt my hands more than ten times and my hands seems to be bruised right now...
It is hurting my hands ... Please feel sympathy...

Forget the drama.

You see I am in the middle of the winter wind etude and in staff 37-40 but this is my question....?

You see the thing executed in the left hand is so tiring and I want you to recommend me a hand massage and pain reliever...

I just want to force myself from some not so very hard etude to the world's hardest etude..

I want to improve myself like Yundi Lee and Join the international piano competition
or you can give me some hard excercise..
And it seems that my piano skills are degrading.. It has been 3 months and a half and I am still at staff 37

Summary of Question:

1.) Need hand excercises for the left...

2.) Need pain reliever

3.) Is there a faster way to learn that Etude ( It's been three months)
     I am really slow

4.) The glissando's in the last staff of Winter wind etude is impossible
    How can it be done?

5.) After some 12 hour practice(once a week) my hand  cramps.
 Why other pianist don't ?

All Hail Kajiura
All Hail Nilsjohan
Welcome to Merville.
Land of Utopia

piano sheet music of Etude


Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #1 on: December 07, 2008, 06:19:17 AM »

1.) Need hand excercises for the left...

2.) Need pain reliever

3.) Is there a faster way to learn that Etude ( It's been three months)
     I am really slow

4.) The glissando's in the last staff of Winter wind etude is impossible
    How can it be done?

5.) After some 12 hour practice(once a week) my hand  cramps.
 Why other pianist don't ?

1: Can you play left hand tremolos? Try to play this passage like it's a tremolo.

2: Soak your hands in ice water

3: Look around the forum (Search) you will find alot of practice advice

4: They are just fast scales. Work on them alot.

5: Don't do 12 hour practice sessions

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 08:22:00 AM »
Loon we already know you cant play this pieces or all the other 'wonderful' accomplishments of yours at early age. Go brag on some kids site but stop bothering us here please.

Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline db05

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 09:11:16 AM »
We are talking about winter wind etude or Chopin Etude Op.25 no.11
It is very complicated and it is hurting my fingers ...
But I have to force myself... I wan't to be Franz Liszt..
I am crazy already!

DON'T. Anyway Franz Liszt is overrated. (Please don't sue me yet people.) I mean we are talking about a guy who went into seclusion for more than a year because he wanted to play as great as Paganini. Do you really want to do that?
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline loonbohol

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #4 on: December 07, 2008, 10:03:17 AM »
Loon we already know you cant play this pieces or all the other 'wonderful' accomplishments of yours at early age. Go brag on some kids site but stop bothering us here please.

Gyzzzmo

You are going out of the topic.
We are talking about my problem and not of my accomplishments
I will bet even my life that I can play it until staff number thirty.
I am going to post that on YOUTUBE and I would swear I will if I can finish it.....

I am not bragging. I am just asking help.....
I have listened to many recordings in Youtube and the youngest person who have played that etude was eight years old....

Of course! What is wrong if people like me wan't to be as good as Franz Lizst...

I knew that being as good as Franz Lizst is  or was once one of your fantasies

and fifteen years old is the right age to improve your piano skills because
You don't have a job nor heavy responsibilities that can hinder you to play that Etude..

Talking no nobody Is'nt that right Franz Lizst

Remember that Proffesional pianists are given only a limited time to study their etudes
and they usually cram....
But look at my freedom, There is no deadline, I won't risk my reputation in the middle of the audience...

I wan't to be a composer too... And as a confession, My compositions are based on others compositions. I have no originality at all...

My Impromptu for Healdie was based on Frederick Chopin's Chopin Impromptu Opus 66.

My Violin Impromptu was based on Paganini's four seasons.

My Seven Études Hinata Sou was based on the sound tracks of Love Hina and some compositions of Kajiura.

Those really are my compositions but I kind UH!!! derived and based it from those compositions...

If you do not understand what I am saying... WELL You are not a pianist who gives Justice to the composition that you are performing.

I am making a musical playground. I am Lizst and I will be Lizst...  I am still experimenting on my musicality and your statement concludes that you do not strive for the better and never had striven for the betterer.....

I have the right to dream and the right to dream gives me the right to make torture to myself
And the right to compose music for some reasons nobody want's to listen

All Hail Kajiura
All Hail Nilsjohan
Welcome to Merville.
Land of Utopia

Offline frank_48

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #5 on: December 07, 2008, 11:06:24 AM »

I wan't to be a composer too... And as a confession, My compositions are based on others compositions. I have no originality at all...

ha! i knew it!







 I am not Liszt and I will never be Liszt... 


fixed your grammar and reality errors.  ;)

solution to this problem? stop being a wannabe pianist...  ::)
Playing Piano is the easiest thing in the world, All you have to do is have the right finger on the right key at the right moment.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #6 on: December 07, 2008, 11:20:39 AM »
ha! i knew it!





fixed your grammar and reality errors.  ;)

solution to this problem? stop being a wannabe pianist...  ::)

Agreed.

Loonbohol if you ever want to get people taking you seriously, stop posting brag posts that are obviously for bragging purpose only. This is a serious forum, if you want to live in a fantasy world go play second life.

Gyzzz
1+1=11

Offline loonbohol

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #7 on: December 07, 2008, 11:23:32 AM »
ha! i knew it!

fixed your grammar and reality errors.  ;)

solution to this problem? stop being a wannabe pianist...  ::)

A Composition derived from another composition is different from a composition copied from another composition.
All Hail Kajiura
All Hail Nilsjohan
Welcome to Merville.
Land of Utopia

Offline pianisten1989

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #8 on: December 07, 2008, 11:57:21 AM »
Dude...

"Hi I am Loboh-something, I am THE BEST pianist in the world, I've played all chopin etudes, please compare me to Liszt, since I am Liszt."

Play your freaking etude and hurt your hands, and stop writing here if you can't say anything else than above.

Offline klm46

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #9 on: December 07, 2008, 01:36:14 PM »
Quote
And the right to compose music for some reasons nobody want's to listen

I wonder why...

Offline db05

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #10 on: December 07, 2008, 02:52:10 PM »
DON'T. Anyway Franz Liszt is overrated. (Please don't sue me yet people.) I mean we are talking about a guy who went into seclusion for more than a year because he wanted to play as great as Paganini. Do you really want to do that?

What a useless post I posted because of lack of time. Maybe I missed the point. What is your goal? To be someone else. What kind of ambition is that? Though I know what you mean. I've been obsessed with the idea of competing in the grand recital lately, only to find out that there are not-so-fair things happening.

Now what is the point?? To be recognized by other people, does not mean I am good in my own terms. I find that sometimes I am more meticulous with music than my own teachers... I don't mean to brag, but do you know what I mean? Half or more of Franz Liszt's popularity is because of non-musicians who don't know any better. So being called the next Franz Liszt doesn't really mean anything to a real musician. And winning competitions... that just means you fooled some real musicans as well. Good for you. You can't fool yourself. The entire PSF community might applaud you, but if you think your music sucks, it sucks.

And I know that you know that you think it sucks. And the main reason is that you're getting off the wrong foot.

Back to topic.

1.) Need hand excercises for the left...
2.) Need pain reliever
3.) Is there a faster way to learn that Etude ( It's been three months)
     I am really slow
4.) The glissando's in the last staff of Winter wind etude is impossible
    How can it be done?
5.) After some 12 hour practice(once a week) my hand  cramps.
 Why other pianist don't ?

1. If it's strength, I suggest learning guitar. Legato- hammer-ons and pull-offs. Guitar is much tougher on the hands than piano (even RH), and makes a good warmup. Don't know how to train for LH speed on a guitar though (except pressing chords ahead of time). For overall speed, try the link in #3.

2. I don't recommend pills except for extreme cases (You don't know how painful monthly cramps are. Lucky you.) because you might get addicted. Just rub on some liniment. I used Omega Pain Killer. Efficascent oil is fine, too, but easy to spill.

3. Read this: http://www.pianopractice.org/book.pdf

4. No idea since I haven't tried it.

5. No idea about other pianists doing 12 hours. I have met a student who reportedly did 10 hours a day before he got a job. He recommends Hanon esp. the arpeggios. (Though I don't buy it.) I'd also met a student with 12+ years of experience, also working as a keyboardist. Recommends Czerny. (Though I don't buy it.) So he practices and plays a lot, and has been keeping it up for a long time, but he complains about pain in the hands often. Maybe it's just the price you have to pay? ???

More later...
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline db05

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #11 on: December 07, 2008, 03:00:40 PM »
Loonbohol if you ever want to get people taking you seriously, stop posting brag posts that are obviously for bragging purpose only. This is a serious forum, if you want to live in a fantasy world go play second life.

I think you've totally misunderstood him. He's not good at getting his point across; he realizes he has trouble learning a piece of music and is sincerely asking for help. HE IS SERIOUS. As serious as a 15-year old Filipino boy can get. I haven't met many kids who are more serious. For instance, compare him to Bernard (fredericfrancoischopin, an older kid); who do you think is more serious?

solution to this problem? stop being a wannabe pianist...  ::)

There is some truth to that. Don't be a wannabe pianist, BE a pianist.
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline term

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 03:01:02 PM »
Whats so great about Liszt anyway? If his pianistic qualities are comparable to his musical output, he probably wasn't that good either. Just the kind of guy who plays in lounges for the amusement of a wealthy, easy to impress layman audience which listens to his music like one would listen to elevator music. At least that's what i imagine would be the right place for his music and many other etudes.  :P
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato
"The only truth lies in learning to free ourselves from insane passion for the truth" - Eco

Offline db05

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #13 on: December 07, 2008, 03:31:22 PM »
Remember that Proffesional pianists are given only a limited time to study their etudes
and they usually cram....
But look at my freedom, There is no deadline, I won't risk my reputation in the middle of the audience...

You realize you have time. Why don't you lay down a good piano and music foundation with a teacher since you seem to be lost? Or even without a teacher, maybe take a few easier pieces and try to enjoy music? I am waiting for your youtube videos. If I learn to operate a camera and upload videos I might be the one to post first. That's not fair; please show me how you play.

Of course! What is wrong if people like me wan't to be as good as Franz Lizst...
I knew that being as good as Franz Lizst is  or was once one of your fantasies

Haha, no, I never idolized Franz Liszt. I idolized my teacher. And then Marc McCarthy and Enzo Medel... I know his dad from here... I think the main reason each of them has achieved so much is that he's always playing for an audience, whether it's for youtube or recital. So please do share your work with us. I think this is the best way to work on your musicality.

I wan't to be a composer too... And as a confession, My compositions are based on others compositions. I have no originality at all...

So what? Most every composition has its musical roots, it is based on something. It does not mean you are not original. It is not copying, as you said.

I have the right to dream and the right to dream gives me the right to make torture to myself
And the right to compose music for some reasons nobody want's to listen

Agreed. Don't torture yourself too much though.
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline pianisten1989

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #14 on: December 07, 2008, 03:51:37 PM »
I think you've totally misunderstood him. He's not good at getting his point across; he realizes he has trouble learning a piece of music and is sincerely asking for help. HE IS SERIOUS. As serious as a 15-year old Filipino boy can get.

I think YOU totally misunderstood him. Have you seen his other posts? All of them are about him, asking us how great he is, if he is a virituoso, and so on...
Stop giving him so much attention, and maybe he quits bragging.

Offline db05

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #15 on: December 07, 2008, 04:34:27 PM »
I think YOU totally misunderstood him. Have you seen his other posts? All of them are about him, asking us how great he is, if he is a virituoso, and so on...
Stop giving him so much attention, and maybe he quits bragging.

Yes, I have read his threads and responded accordingly. Do you find it so weird that a child is childish? Or do you honestly expect him to have a set of goals and plans laid out (sort of like mine)? ??? When I was 15 I was much much worse and more terribly misunderstood... and you know how hard it is to come back to those people who criticize you and confess you have much to learn? If not before, I'd understand, but maybe NOW you can consider that this guy is serious.

Edit:
On starting this thread, and responding here, I think loonbohol has made steps forward. And you're not being very encouraging.
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline tds

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #16 on: December 07, 2008, 05:54:53 PM »
so!, loonbohol is 15 years of age. ok, isn't normal to have some fantasy at this age? take me, for instance, i used to fantasize that i could deliver fireballs from my palm when i was 15; and could fly like a bird at 17 years of age. maybe i was a bit too old than normal to have such fantasies. but hey, i survived-and moreover, i now live a normal, artistic life. now back to the issue: would scolding or making discouraging remarks be helpful to the kid's growth? i, for one, do not think so. i think gentle guidance and unconditional love would.

"be kind, everyone is fighting a hard battle" otd

tds

dignity, love and joy.

Offline scottmcc

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #17 on: December 07, 2008, 08:54:52 PM »
We are talking about winter wind etude or Chopin Etude Op.25 no.11
It is very complicated and it is hurting my fingers ...
But I have to force myself... I wan't to be Franz Liszt..
I am crazy already!

...

1.) Need hand excercises for the left...

2.) Need pain reliever

3.) Is there a faster way to learn that Etude ( It's been three months)
     I am really slow

4.) The glissando's in the last staff of Winter wind etude is impossible
    How can it be done?

5.) After some 12 hour practice(once a week) my hand  cramps.
 Why other pianist don't ?



forgive me a few comments, and of course caveat that I am certainly not at the level of being able to play a chopin etude at all, let alone one of the harder ones. 

I reviewed the score just now, and I don't see anything in the particular measures you mentioned that looks all that different than the rest of the piece.  what specifically is it that gives you trouble?  are you just getting fatigued?  the scale at the very end is really just an a minor scale with both hands together--it's just quite speedy, and I don't think you can gliss that.  You mentioned in another thread that you don't really play scales ever...now is probably the time to start.  and if you really want an etude, try liszt's technical exercises.  those rock.

but anyway, the best thing to do when you truly get stuck on a piece is to give it a break for a little while, and then come back to it in a few days/weeks/months after you've worked on some other things.  you'll be amazed how things that gave you fits before are suddenly playable.

try motrin, and soaking your hands in ice water.  and give it a rest.  12 hrs a day is way too much.  you're almost definitely overtraining--there's a limit to how much practicing is good for you, and you seem to have breeched it.  not practicing enough is a far more common fault, but practicing too much is equally dangerous, especially if you're not being effective with your practice time.

maybe what would serve you well is learning some "actual music" instead of just etudes.  you say you want to be liszt?  he was the first to play the hammerklavier publicly...maybe a beethoven sonata or two would be just what you need to head back in the right direction.  just don't start with the hammerklavier--try something more in the middle of the range.

best of luck dude!

Offline richard black

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #18 on: December 07, 2008, 11:39:28 PM »
Loonbohol, if the LH figures are giving you trouble, you are going about them the wrong way. Try different fingerings, different hand positions, and different ways of thinking about the problem. Work on other difficult LH pieces. Just hammering away at it will get you nowhere.

12 hours practice? In one day? I don't think I've ever done that much, and at the age of 15 it would probably have done me up completely (I once did 6 hours, I remember, at that age). You need to build up to that sort of level. Make sure your posture is good or you'll have all sorts of problems in store, and stop when any part of your body becomes sore. If your hand cramps it may be because you are using your arm or upper body incorrectly.

The scale at the end of that study is not a glissando, it's fingered.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline etcetra

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #19 on: December 08, 2008, 04:50:40 AM »
Loon we already know you cant play this pieces or all the other 'wonderful' accomplishments of yours at early age. Go brag on some kids site but stop bothering us here please.

Gyzzzmo

maybe loon can make a video of him playing the etude in second life..:) 

seriously, if playing the piano is giving you pain, it means that you are doing something wrong, the worst thing you can do is play through the pain.

Offline tds

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #20 on: December 08, 2008, 04:58:10 AM »

seriously, if playing the piano is giving you pain, it means that you are doing something wrong, the worst thing you can do is play through the pain.

THIS cannot  be more true. loon, u should take this advice, before you injure urself badly. tds
dignity, love and joy.

Offline etcetra

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #21 on: December 08, 2008, 07:02:13 AM »
Loon

I did what you did couple of years ago.. forcing myself, playing through the pain. .being too ambitious., and because  of that I had a horrible injury and I had to stop playing for an year.  I had to do a surgery and spend a lot of money doing different kinds of therapy.. in the end I realized I had to start from scratch and build my technique up from the begging, because I could no longer play like I used to. 

You really have to ask yourself, is it really worth it to continue music the way you do, and continue entertaining this notion of "greatness", this fantasy and delusion for the rest of your life?  Are you really enjoying music with all this pain and unrealistic expectation you have about yourself?  Is the nostalgia you are having about your past achievement really helping you or getting in your way of improvement?

I stopped thinking about greatness and all that crap a while ago, because it's just not really worth my time thinking about those things.. music is a life long learning process, and for what it's worth I enjoy every minute of it, I enjoy every obstacle I come across, no matter how big or small  and when i look up to the next peak and realize how much i can go further i get a little intimidated and excited at the same time..and I will probably feel the same way when I am 70.  and I thank god, or whoever it is for creating thing wonderful thing called music, something I can explore and develop for the rest of my life.

I guess what I am saying is, whether its chopin, or beethoven or lizst, the reason they created music was not because the wanted to be great, or be remembered for their achievements.. the created music because they loved music..if you are doing music for any other reasons than that, perhaps you might want to think about why you are doing music in the first place?


Offline loonbohol

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #22 on: December 08, 2008, 07:36:36 AM »
Loon

I did what you did couple of years ago.. forcing myself, playing through the pain. .being too ambitious., and because  of that I had a horrible injury and I had to stop playing for an year.  I had to do a surgery and spend a lot of money doing different kinds of therapy.. in the end I realized I had to start from scratch and build my technique up from the begging, because I could no longer play like I used to. 

You really have to ask yourself, is it really worth it to continue music the way you do, and continue entertaining this notion of "greatness", this fantasy and delusion for the rest of your life?  Are you really enjoying music with all this pain and unrealistic expectation you have about yourself?  Is the nostalgia you are having about your past achievement really helping you or getting in your way of improvement?

I stopped thinking about greatness and all that crap a while ago, because it's just not really worth my time thinking about those things.. music is a life long learning process, and for what it's worth I enjoy every minute of it, I enjoy every obstacle I come across, no matter how big or small  and when i look up to the next peak and realize how much i can go further i get a little intimidated and excited at the same time..and I will probably feel the same way when I am 70.  and I thank god, or whoever it is for creating thing wonderful thing called music, something I can explore and develop for the rest of my life.

I guess what I am saying is, whether its chopin, or beethoven or lizst, the reason they created music was not because the wanted to be great, or be remembered for their achievements.. the created music because they loved music..if you are doing music for any other reasons than that, perhaps you might want to think about why you are doing music in the first place?



I did not compose music for honor or fame.....
I just that in notion that I am impressed with Chopin when I was Watching
a television about a young chinese guy who won an international piano competition.

You see! I started to be bored in music but then When I watcha certain anime called "Kin'iro no corda" I became obsessed and I became insane.

Thereis another reasson why I want to learn winter wind.
It is THAT the way it was composed was so cool and original that I want to compose a composition that like Chopin's Winter wind would emulate the sound of a strong wind. 

I cannot imagine that the piano itself produces the sound of the strong wind.

And I want to learn how to make my compositions full of accidentals and notonly of boring following the scale.

And the more you know music then the more you are skilled in composing
All Hail Kajiura
All Hail Nilsjohan
Welcome to Merville.
Land of Utopia

Offline popdog

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #23 on: December 08, 2008, 07:46:45 AM »
By the sound of it, you should drop the Winterwind.  Your approach, whilst showing dedication, is more likely to give you a serious injury than allow you to play this etude.  Doing this without a teacher at your level is a tough gig, and if your gonna get through it, it will take very intelligent practice. 

As others have said, ripping through the piece again and again is the exact opposite.  If you're playing it with the wrong movements, then this repetition is only going to reinforce the incorrect way of doing things which is exactly what you don't want. 

I like the suggestion to learn some other pieces which aren't intended as technical exercises.  Learning and perfecting the 24 Chopin etudes is impressive and valuable, but if this (or to become the next Franz Liszt for that matter) is your only goal, then you should reconsider why you play piano. 

I would slow down, listen to a wide range of piano music, and come up with some other pieces which aren't so difficult to learn.  I also wouldn't practice 12 hours a day, especially in the way you described... you are asking for an injury which is the last thing you want. 

People on this forum appreciate honesty, and detest self-gratifying, bragging members.  You come across in the second manner a lot of the time.  Keep this is mind. 

Offline shinerl

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #24 on: December 09, 2008, 02:20:23 AM »
I did not compose music for honor or fame.....
I just that in notion that I am impressed with Chopin when I was Watching
a television about a young chinese guy who won an international piano competition.

You see! I started to be bored in music but then When I watcha certain anime called "Kin'iro no corda" I became obsessed and I became insane.

Thereis another reasson why I want to learn winter wind.
It is THAT the way it was composed was so cool and original that I want to compose a composition that like Chopin's Winter wind would emulate the sound of a strong wind. 

I cannot imagine that the piano itself produces the sound of the strong wind.

And I want to learn how to make my compositions full of accidentals and notonly of boring following the scale.

And the more you know music then the more you are skilled in composing

I am also impressed how winter wind was composed since it is in either A minor or in C major. And nonetheless Chopin is a genius composer and It has baffled composers and acoustic scientists how Chopin or what is the trick of that sound coming out from that piano.

And how did Chopin achieve such melody despite lots of accidentals.
And The melody of Winter wind is not on the left nor the right hand but on both hands.
And so is on harmony.

That type of compositions are only composed by genius like him and you are not a genius.

But you have proven to have emulate the sound of cicada's in in your composition which is Hinata. (But cicada's dont cry in the day)

I want you to emulate the sound of the printer using the piano. ::)



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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #25 on: December 09, 2008, 03:06:26 AM »
Chopin is not hard at all.... relatively.
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Offline jabbz

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #26 on: December 09, 2008, 07:45:41 AM »
Relatively compared to what? Sure there are hundreds if not thousands of pieces harder than the hardest Chopin Etude, but I don't think they're easy in any universe.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #27 on: December 10, 2008, 06:55:10 AM »
Playing is: Easy
Learning how to play is: Hard. :P

I don't think there needs to be such animosity towards a member of this forum.  Members come here for advice and comfort and understanding, not actual help.  Trying to help is like giving hay to a thirsty horse.

Anyway, my initial reaction to the topic post was to let himself continue to do what he has done.  It may eventually lead to progress or to injury.  That injury may be mild or permanent.  Either way, he'll learn whatever it is he needs to learn.  And no one can do that for him.

Offline welcome1

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #28 on: December 10, 2008, 07:51:44 PM »
As I type this letters in the forum...
My hands seems to be lifted to the air...

We are talking about winter wind etude or Chopin Etude Op.25 no.11
It is very complicated and it is hurting my fingers ...
But I have to force myself... I wan't to be Franz Liszt..
I am crazy already!

I have hurt my hands more than ten times and my hands seems to be bruised right now...
It is hurting my hands ... Please feel sympathy...

Forget the drama.

You see I am in the middle of the winter wind etude and in staff 37-40 but this is my question....?

You see the thing executed in the left hand is so tiring and I want you to recommend me a hand massage and pain reliever...

I just want to force myself from some not so very hard etude to the world's hardest etude..

I want to improve myself like Yundi Lee and Join the international piano competition
or you can give me some hard excercise..
And it seems that my piano skills are degrading.. It has been 3 months and a half and I am still at staff 37

Summary of Question:

1.) Need hand excercises for the left...

2.) Need pain reliever

3.) Is there a faster way to learn that Etude ( It's been three months)
     I am really slow

4.) The glissando's in the last staff of Winter wind etude is impossible
    How can it be done?

5.) After some 12 hour practice(once a week) my hand  cramps.
 Why other pianist don't ?


hello my hands are nackered too. i also studied the winter wind i have a clavinova and my way of practising such pieces is to record each hand seperatley on to the piano as slow as you like but in time then once you've done that you can play along and increase the tempo as much as you want it works for me anyway. Best recording to listen to to really appreciate this and all the rest of the etudes is Vlado Perlemuter on nimbus recordings. My mission is to get more people to appreciate chopin's music

Offline loonbohol

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #29 on: December 11, 2008, 02:14:17 AM »
Thank you but thereseems to be another problem...

I cannot play it with emotion but whatever is the case we'll this is case closed
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Offline c4rem

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #30 on: December 18, 2008, 04:19:15 PM »
hey ts, have u tried learning it 'properly'?....if i may ask, how did u learn the winterwind?...

try to be honest...i will see if i can offer u some advice....

Offline j.s. bach the 534th

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #31 on: December 20, 2008, 06:48:38 PM »
ok, I started studying this Etude, and I cannot seem to play it anywhere near full tempo without my right hand getting fatigued within 10 or 15 measures. Any ideas on how to avoid this right hand exhaustion?

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #32 on: December 20, 2008, 07:08:22 PM »
I know of this one way that is extremely easy.  It only takes a few days of practice, not more than a week to master, but requires something that you are not capable of doing: practicing correctly.

Not only will your hand not be exhausted, but your hand will feel like it can play it all day long like something you've been doing since you were born.  You can play it at any speed with absolute control but it still requires something you are not capable of doing: practicing correctly.

If you are not capable of practicing correctly, you will never learn how to play the piano no matter how much you practice.

Offline loonbohol

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #33 on: December 21, 2008, 06:58:28 PM »
I Think I know already my problem.

I seem to have no control at speed at all.
I recorded myself on the cellphone and compared it to some Youtube recording.

I am too... fast.

I have a difficulty on my tempo...

But my greatest problem is that (I forgot to tell you) Is that My hands sweat and Sweaty hands are not good for the etude.

Then my other question is that .
It seems that winter wind is using polyrhythms.

It has 24 16th notes on the right hand per stave giving it 6 counts.
While the left hand gives four counts per stave

I do not know which note to hit
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Offline db05

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 01:35:52 AM »
Too fast?!?! Then that is to your advantage, you can slow down and work on accuracy instead.

Still have pasma? That sounds really bad, maybe you should check with a doctor. I get sweaty hands, but not that often. Once it was during a recital though, and that sucks.

try to compute where the notes go in the polyrhythm and practice separate hands, but in the end it won't be exact and just spontaneous.
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Offline j.s. bach the 534th

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 08:08:22 PM »
I am too... fast.
Quote

Completely wasn't aware this was possible for someone like you. I'd say that is actually a good thing.

Offline c4rem

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #36 on: December 24, 2008, 09:02:41 AM »
control over tempo?...oh...thats not very difficult to solve...
as Mozart always like to say.. 'tempo, is merely a feeling'...

in my own pov, there is nothing metronomical abt tempos...

u have to practice letting the sounds flow...let ur ears be active as u try ur best to use ur fantasy to carry up each and every individual sound....repeat this process until u r sure that all ur sounds r beautiful...

rmb, a beautiful sound, is not NECESSARILY DEEP.....it has to depend on the musical context....

once u have understood this concecpt of the zone, u will slowly be able to use ur 'intuition' to speed up..trust me....the brilliance in the winterwind is not that difficult to bring out...

rmb what horowitz always say 'music, must come out from the INSIDE, not the OUTSIDE'...

gd luck...

Offline j.s. bach the 534th

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #37 on: December 26, 2008, 09:31:08 PM »
I know of this one way that is extremely easy.  It only takes a few days of practice, not more than a week to master, but requires something that you are not capable of doing: practicing correctly

Thanx for the very nice advice... 8)

Offline pinoypianist

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 02:30:15 PM »
Hey loon, I think you should get a good teacher to help you in your weak points. Sure we can give you tips and pointers but the problem is we can't see you. What if your doing something wrong? (asked you to do this before, but now I insist)

Offline aslanov

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #39 on: December 27, 2008, 07:37:49 PM »
Quote
5.) After some 12 hour practice(once a week) my hand  cramps.
 Why other pianist don't ?



dude.....ur an amateur pianist, unless you know what your doing your gonna get hurt.......big time. the only person i've heard of practicing that much was richter because he had a day or 2 to learn a long piece, and even richtar himself said he usually doesnt practice more than 3-4 hours a day. frankly loob-im-so-great, you dont have the chops to be practicing that many hours a day without hurting yourself, unless your a very intelligent person, which im sure u think u are, but intelligent or not, i doubt ur carpals will agree with you if u keep going at this rate. i remember reading something written by hoffman who said that practicing physically on the piano should not be more than 2-3 hours, the rest of your practice time should be spent reading the music, understanding it.

the solution to ALL your 5 problems (i'm assuming, i havent read them except the last one) be patient, and take it slow.

Offline chopianesque

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #40 on: April 13, 2010, 12:21:57 AM »
Hi, I"m an advanced amateur pianist who has been fortunate to take lessons from some really fabulous pianists. Recently I  studied with an Argentine pianist who was a student of Scaramuzza. This woman has an international career of many decades and incredibly beautiful sound. She has a couple of  suggestions for Winter winds. I believe both of these suggestions came from Scaramuzza.
1) In all the chromatic descending passages in the right hand, play 5241 5241 all the way down, regardless of white or black notes. This sounds weird, but the main advantage is reducing arm movement a LOT, resulting in less fatigue. Your fingers do have to do a lot of work, but it is an etude, after all.

2) Practice this etude together with op. 10 no 2. With the fingering suggested above, you use a crab-like motion in the right hand which is very similar to op 10 no. 2.
I also got a complete and very felicitous fingering of this etude from her which reduces the awkwardness a lot.

Unfortunately I moved, so I'm not able to continue lessons with this woman, but I still practice my Chopin etudes. I actually came on here looking for fingering suggestions for op. 25 no. 1
.

Offline pianissimo123

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #41 on: June 06, 2010, 04:48:27 AM »
Okay. So for starters, you need consistancy. 4hrs everyday is better than 12 hrs. once a
week. If you already practice 4hrs a day you can go 4hrs. from M-F and 6hrs  from S-S. You can break it up, for example have am/pm practices. For the 6hr days have an early am, midday or afternoon, and then an evening practice. Have a goal each time you play.(fluency, musicality, voicings, and dynamics.)

As for the hands, stretch! It is important to warm up properly before a practice session, especially if one  is training as hard as you say.  Do warmup extention exercises in the hands. Soak your hands in warm water. Rub them gently.

For pain, try ibuprofin? or something of the like. The only thing I cannot begin to stress enough is don't overdo it. You don't want to wreck your training with an injury. Play gently. Don't hyperextend your wrists or anything crazy like that.  :oGet lots of rest, eat well,and mantain a balanced life style. That will greatly help your playing abilities! I hope it goes well for you. ;D
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Offline gene2701

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #42 on: June 07, 2010, 04:54:41 PM »
let me put it real simple for u.

its hurting ur hands simply because ur using ur energies wrongly.

its not a pain reliever u need. its a real genuine pianist/musician u need to guide u correctly.

and btw, be patient. ur post reflects nth more than ur 'ambitious desire' and 'lack of knowledge' in music.

best of luck.

Offline perelea

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #43 on: June 07, 2010, 05:36:49 PM »
dude.

put aside everything else about your post that makes me wanna stab my eyes out...

why in the world do you practice such a hard piece. If you can barely play it slowly after 3 months of work, you need to work on something easier first.

Go through some Czerny for example, if you like etudes, he's got an awful lot of em. Op. 299 or 740 could be suitable and acutally have some really nice pieces.

don't do anything that hurts your hand for the love of allmighty panda.
Pain is our body telling us something is wrong, had it never occured to you ?

practice technique patiently and correctly, there is a huge amount of posts on these forums to give you enough basic guidelines on how to do it. For the rest watch your teacher play and try to imitate him \ her.

absolutely no offence fella, but dont play that etude, its usually not for 15 yr old people who play 12 hours a week ( in 1 day  :-X ).

If you wanna be good practice every day for 3-4 hours, and be patient.




Offline gene2701

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #44 on: June 12, 2010, 03:27:00 PM »
to perelea- that advice, is honestly the worse i hv heard.

y would u want to pick a flower from new york when the flower u need, is just right in front of ur eyes? :)

no offence though.

Offline outburst

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #45 on: June 12, 2010, 04:57:20 PM »
to perelea- that advice, is honestly the worse i hv heard.

y would u want to pick a flower from new york when the flower u need, is just right in front of ur eyes? :)

no offence though.

Because the one right in front of you has some nasty thorns?  ;D

I think perelea is quite right. Choosing pieces to hard is just a way to hinder your development.

Offline nanabush

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #46 on: June 12, 2010, 06:47:50 PM »
Ya, I agree with him too.

12 hours a week in one day is a pure disaster.  I've never heard of anyone doing that.

The scales at the end of the winterwind seem to be the most forgiving passage in the piece haha!
Interested in discussing:

-Prokofiev Toccata
-Scriabin Sonata 2

Offline gene2701

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #47 on: June 13, 2010, 03:38:00 PM »
to outburst- then learn how to avoid that thorn..SINCE EVERYBODY can see it...well in this case...u hv to learn how to HEAR IT...

:)

i m not trying to win anybody in an argument. seriously, pianist listen for a particular 'something' it is and always shall be the key element of y all the greats has such gifted technique.

trust me on this. i dont lie.
:)

Offline thoven_liszt

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #48 on: July 19, 2010, 03:42:41 AM »
1. Hanon exercises and scales
2. Menthol patches
3. Memorize one measure at a time, don't bother to try to play through the piece and then start memorizing. If you take one measure at a time, you will notice the patterns.
4. It's not a glissando; it is a scale
5. 12 hour practice session in one day? That is harmful to both arms and technique. Practicing an etude for an extended period of time is counter productive. Practice slowly and use wrist rotation and arm weight. If you are having trouble with the Winter Wind, you should practice the right hand of the op. 10 no. 5 to work in the wrist rotation. For the left hand, you should have already had some experience from the op. 10. no. 12.

Offline pianist1976

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Re: Winter wind..... Impossible + Frederick Chopin competition
«Reply #49 on: July 19, 2010, 08:11:43 AM »
1. Hanon exercises and scales

Sorry to disagree ;) I know its a controversial subject but in my opinion Hanon exercises doesn't help in any way to play Chopin etudes. There's nothing in those awful exercises that helps or prepares to any difficulty in Chopin etudes (IMHO, of course). The scales (which can be found in any other technique book) are the only useful part in Hanon.

As a preparation for Chopin etudes I think that they are much more useful some Clementi and Cramer etudes and exercises for streching and finger independence such as those of Brahms, Liszt (exercises, not the etudes), Pischna or Dohnanyi. And, of course, no exercise or etude is useful if you do not have a good teacher who teaches you how to be flexible, to use all your body and, very important, avoid and canalize all unnecessary tension and stiffnes. Bad playing of very demanding pieces takes too frequently to injure.

(just my opinion)