hey, i just started trying this out, and i was wondering what fingering you guys use for the right hand.

from the very beginning this is what i've come up with. 2-1-5-4-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-4-3-1-4

at the very beginning i start with a 2 because i find it makes it easier for the 4th finger to stretch to the Db. i realize a 3 would be more comfortable but, once i get used to the 2, the Db would be easier to reach. where i have a problem is going from the Eb with the 5th finger to the Db with the 2nd finger right after. i was wondering what fingering you guys use in this particular part.

Thanks

i've changed the fingering to 315 415 215 215 215 215 214 315

i find ur 315 to 215 is very......uncomfortable, but the rest is fine.

the stability of hitting it accurately at fast speeds is what i was thinking of actually, thanks for your help. i think ill try it with the second, lol.

I disagree with the 4th finger on the D-flat, and I think it misses the point of this etude, which is not a fingering etude, or an etude in the style of op.10 no.2.  Don't give in to the mania to "connect" everything, because this is precisely music which is not connected by fingering, but rather by the upper musculature. 

In this etude you are essentially playing hand positions that you reach by subtle movements of the upper action: shoulder, upper arm, and elbow.  Each of these positions also  has a natural rotation, which comes from the hand/lower arm.

Looking at it this way, the grouping A-flat , D-flat, A-flat (the second triplet) with the fingering 4-1-5 is extremely uncomfortable, weak, and insecure.  Furthermore, the grouping A-flat, C, C, D-flat (the first triplet plus the next note) with the fingering 3/2 - 1 - 5 - 4 is also painful.

For a successful run at this, you need to have the upper action mobile (Medtner described Rachmaninov's technique as "shaking the notes out of his sleeve"), the hand rotating, and a light second finger, or more precisely, easy action between the second finger and thumb, because it is the second finger which is used the most.

Walter Ramsey

What do you mean by this is not a fingering etude? Technique is fingering as Liszt says. I would like to see what fingering you suggest exactly. You do not play the 2nd triplet in isolation with those fingers. In fact the fingers encourage a grouping of 6 semiquaver notes in one movement of the hand.

(315 415) (215 315 215) (315 214 315)
That is the movement groups how I feel them when I play so the bar is controlled by three positions/movements of the hand, which is quite efficient. As a method of practice one can play each of these groups fast and pause in between each to acquire muscular memory.

When I say it is not a fingering etude, I mean it is not an etude that tests ingenious finger combinations along the lines of op.10 no.2.  It is an etude for the action of the upper muscles: this is quite clear, as in every bar, you have to "pump" the action in order to play the triplets.  There are many spots where it is impossible to connect with fingering alone, thus showing that his aim was to activate the upper arms.

I don't know what it means, technique is fingering.  What fingering will help you to play the octaves in the Liszt sonata, or the Schubert a minor?  Will fingering alone solve the peroration of the Ravel Toccata?  With fingering alone, you could not even begin the Schumann Toccata.  The fingering I would use is 3/2 (for me either works) - 1- 5- 2 - 1 -5 etc.

I am very surprised to hear that 4 works for you!  But, everyone's technique is different.

Walter Ramsey

There are many spots where it is impossible to connect with fingering alone, thus showing that his aim was to activate the upper arms.

In fact, I play most of the of the right hand non-legato, but connected IN PHRASE... You are exactly right - the arm connects.  The piece does not have to go terribly fast, but having tried as many options as possible, the fourth finger slows me down already at the beginning of the phrase - rather, it stops the flow.  I don't care of whom we speak - anatomically, it is the weakest digit.

If I have the chance, I will try to post a video of the first measure in slow motion.

Somewhat ironically, I will also try to address in the same video the GENIUS of using the fourth finger in Chopin 10/9, which is the topic of another current thread.

ML

thanks for the informative debate.
so i already got michael's and lostwonder's fingering.
but what about ramsey? how do u do this?
thanks again.

Although it's possible to use 3 on the first note, for me really the only functional fingering is the most obvious: 2-1-5 on all of the triplets that involve octaves.  This is an etude about making phrases without the aid of fingering, rather with the use of the upper arm muscles.  To that degree, when learning this piece, do not worry about a "connective" fingering, because it won't help you to play it.

Walter Ramsey

I have performed this piece probably at least 50 times so I will give you what works best for me and why.

315 315 215 215 215 215 214 315

I find that a 3 on the first 2 groupings of notes is least awkward for the wrist (mine anyway), which needs to be free for the rotation motion of the piece.  If you start with a 215 then your wrist is starting in a turned-outward position that just feels very uncomfortable and less efficient.  Same logic and situation on the 2nd group if you were to use 215.  Using 415 on the second group seems a very weak combination of fingers for something that needs to be solidly phrased.

IMHO using a 315 on the first 2 groups in no way detracts from the rotational use of the hand with which much of this etude is dealing.  I also disagree that the ONLY functional fingering is 215 on all groupings involving octaves here. 

With all respect to Walter, we have had lengthy debates about this etude so obviously there are many things on which we simply disagree.  To your advantage though, you get the benefit of hearing many differing ideas and coming up with a solution that works best for you!

That's my suggestion... best of luck!

Josh