Great piano music written in the 21st century

[iumonito]

Any suggestions?  I am fantasizing about learn about 65 minutes of it this year and play it in December to celebrate the first decade of the century.

[retrouvailles]

One that came immediately to mind is Carl Vine's Piano Sonata No. 3 (2007), which is about 20 minutes. Another good one is Esa-Pekka Salonen's Dichotomie (2000), which is around 20 minutes. Something else that might work is either of either Lera Auerbach's Piano Sonatas (both from 2006), which are 20 minutes and 15 minutes respectively. A short easy piece that would work is Peter Sculthorpe's Little Passacaglia (2004), which is 3 and a half minutes. Also, Louis Andriessen's Image de Moreau (1999) might work, if you cheat and do something from the last year of the 20th century, and that is also 3 and a half minutes. These are just a few ideas I came up with off the top of my head and can probably think of a few more later. I also didn't list anything that is too too "off the wall modern", if you know what I mean, but I can if you so wish me to.

[indutrial]

Dusapin Etudes/Preludes

I don't play piano well enough to know, but those etudes are intensely difficult, no? I'm certain that the slower ones sound reasonably playable from a technical standpoint, but the rhythms and dynamics Dusapin uses on the score make the interpretation a much greater challenge.

Are his preludes published or recorded yet?

[pies]

a

[naturlaut]

I second the Sculthorpe's Little Passacaglia.  My pianistic abilities also shun me away from Dusapin etudes.  Didn't Alistair finish his Seven Characterpieces only recently? 

[ahinton]

I second the Sculthorpe's Little Passacaglia.  My pianistic abilities also shun me away from Dusapin etudes.  Didn't Alistair finish his Seven Characterpieces only recently? 

That depends how recently you call recently; they were written between 1998 and 2003...

Best,

Alistair

[general disarray]

Here's the link to Alistair's bio page with a selected?  complete? list of his works, including those for piano solo, etc.


https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/biography.php

[ahinton]

Here's the link to Alistair's bio page with a selected?  complete? list of his works, including those for piano solo, etc.
https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/biography.php

Many thanks. The bio's not been updated for a while but the list of works is, I think, a complete one of extant works (i.e. no references are made within it to any works, completed or otherwise, that have subsequently been destroyed - and there were a fair number of those).

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

Elliott Carter composed some piano stuff, I think it's all boring but everyone else seems to love him

Wait a minute here... you think all of Elliott Carter's output for the piano is boring?! Surely this can't be... Or are you just referring to stuff written in the 21st century? Even this seems difficult when one considers a piece like Caténaires.

I've met people who maybe disliked Elliott Carter's piano music (and music in general), but it's difficult for me to believe that anybody would think that his Piano Concerto, for example, is anything close to boring...

Best,

Ryan

[retrouvailles]

Yeah, I would say that Carter's 21st century piano music is good, but it isn't great. Caténaires is a great piece, but I think Intermittences and Matribute (dedicated to Oppens) both fall flat on their face. I think Retrouvailles is an ok piece. There is a new piece called Fratribute, but I haven't heard it yet (its from 2008). And yes, the piano concerto is a great piece, but let's not get off topic with that, for its from the 1960s.

Also, Alistair, I would love to suggest one of your piano pieces, but it seems only one of them has been recorded. Why haven't more people jumped on the idea of recording your piano pieces?

[ryguillian]

Yeah, I would say that Carter's 21st century piano music is good, but it isn't great. Caténaires is a great piece, but I think Intermittences and Matribute (dedicated to Oppens) both fall flat on their face. I think Retrouvailles is an ok piece.

How in particular do Intermittences and Matribute fall flat on their faces?

There is a new piece called Fratribute, but I haven't heard it yet (its from 2008). And yes, the piano concerto is a great piece, but let's not get off topic with that, for its from the 1960s.

The only reason I brought up the Piano Concerto was because I thought Pies might have possibly been making a statement about Carter's entire piano output (although I admit that this would be off topic).

All the very best,

Ryan

[ahinton]

Wait a minute here... you think all of Elliott Carter's output for the piano is boring?! Surely this can't be... Or are you just referring to stuff written in the 21st century? Even this seems difficult when one considers a piece like Caténaires.

I've met people who maybe disliked Elliott Carter's piano music (and music in general), but it's difficult for me to believe that anybody would think that his Piano Concerto, for example, is anything close to boring...

Best,

Ryan

I have to admit to having awful problems getting anywhere near the piano concerto until listening to a recent Naxos recording of it but what really brought it right home to me was listening to Nic Hodges playing it - absolutely astounding! EC is not primarily a piano composer - I think that we can all accept that - but he used to play the piano and I do think that he has a good sense of what works well for the instrument - the sonata is a classic example as one of the truly great American piano sonatas, for it's a profoundly moving work (well, for me, at least)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Yeah, I would say that Carter's 21st century piano music is good, but it isn't great. Caténaires is a great piece, but I think Intermittences and Matribute (dedicated to Oppens) both fall flat on their face. I think Retrouvailles is an ok piece. There is a new piece called Fratribute, but I haven't heard it yet (its from 2008). And yes, the piano concerto is a great piece, but let's not get off topic with that, for its from the 1960s.

Also, Alistair, I would love to suggest one of your piano pieces, but it seems only one of them has been recorded. Why haven't more people jumped on the idea of recording your piano pieces?

Thank you very much for your kind words, but in answer to your question I can only say "don't ask me!"...

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

How in particular do Intermittences and Matribute fall flat on their faces?

Intermittences is a piece that has a great program, but I think the execution of the ideas that Carter put into his program, such as the imitation of a husband and wife arguing, are not really convincing to the listener. Matribute is just a piece that leaves me baffled. Perhaps "falls flat on their faces" was not a great description of the success of the pieces, but it is all basically personal opinion. Perhaps other people will think differently. They are definitely far from his best piano works, I am pretty sure of.

[ryguillian]

I have to admit to having awful problems getting anywhere near the piano concerto until listening to a recent Naxos recording of it but what really brought it right home to me was listening to Nic Hodges playing it - absolutely astounding! EC is not primarily a piano composer - I think that we can all accept that - but he used to play the piano and I do think that he has a good sense of what works well for the instrument - the sonata is a classic example as one of the truly great American piano sonatas, for it's a profoundly moving work (well, for me, at least)...

Best,

Alistair

I had similar frustration with the Piano Concerto: I had to listen to it—not exaggerating—at least 35-45 times before I "got" it. I actually used to dislike it quite a bit (preferring a work like the Quintet for Piano & Strings),but now I find it to be extremely coherent and powerful. As it turns out, I had a similar issue with Ligeti's Streichquarett Nr 2 and now love that piece as well. I didn't like the Naxos recording, though, and much prefer Oppens's. I haven't seen it live, but would really love to. I'm sure Hodges did it justice.

Best,

Ry

[ryguillian]

Intermittences is a piece that has a great program, but I think the execution of the ideas that Carter put into his program, such as the imitation of a husband and wife arguing, are not really convincing to the listener. Matribute is just a piece that leaves me baffled. Perhaps "falls flat on their faces" was not a great description of the success of the pieces, but it is all basically personal opinion. Perhaps other people will think differently. They are definitely far from his best piano works, I am pretty sure of.

I haven't actually heard either of these works, but your criticism of Intermittences reminds me of something that Carter said about his Symphony of Three Orchestras; he said something like (my paraphrase from memory), "I don't intend for people to actually hear the three separate orchestras, but I'm trying to create an impression like somebody looking through a kaleidoscope." In light of this, I think Carter might sometimes use "orgazational schemes" that aren't necessarially communicated in music, but create an impression. Ferneyhough does a lot of similar things (see Richard Toop's article on Lemma-Icon-Epigram for example) he creates ad hoc "mazes" that he has to get himself out of and work in. Constriction (via musical form) and expression in music are as betwixt as those two spent swimmers from Macbeth, but thankfully don't choke their art.

Best,

Ryan

[ahinton]

I haven't actually heard either of these works, but your criticism of Intermittences reminds me of something that Carter said about his Symphony of Three Orchestras; he said something like (my paraphrase from memory), "I don't intend for people to actually hear the three separate orchestras, but I'm trying to create an impression like somebody looking through a kaleidoscope." In light of this, I think Carter might sometimes use "orgazational schemes" that aren't necessarially communicated in music, but create an impression. Ferneyhough does a lot of similar things (see Richard Toop's article on Lemma-Icon-Epigram for example) he creates ad hoc "mazes" that he has to get himself out of and work in. Constriction and expression in musical expression are as those betwixt spent swimmers from Macbeth, but thankfully don't choke their art.

Best,

Ryan

I think that you're on to something here. The point (for me, at least) is that the processes and procedures that the composer goes through (one has only to look at Carter in the later '60s and early '70s to witness the immense amount of preliminary sketching through which he felt it necessary to go at that time) are for the composer alone, just as Schönberg had earlier spoken of those things that belong to the composer's workshop; they may be of interest to some (and why not?) but, in the end, any music worth listening to more than a few times will not have been written only or even principally for the benefit of its composer's peers, so it behoves itself that it communicates something vibrant (even if not necessarily immediate) to those listeners who are not fully versed in those areas of musical literacy in which the composer necessarily had to involve him/herself in its writing. Carter has not had to worry about all this kind of thing for some years now because he feels that those exercises form all those years ago have brought about for him a sense of fluency that means that he has no longer to have to put himself through all those hoops; I presume that he knows of what he speaks!

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

a

[ryguillian]

I think that you're on to something here. The point (for me, at least) is that the processes and procedures that the composer goes through (one has only to look at Carter in the later '60s and early '70s to witness the immense amount of preliminary sketching through which he felt it necessary to go at that time) are for the composer alone, just as Schönberg had earlier spoken of those things that belong to the composer's workshop; they may be of interest to some (and why not?) but, in the end, any music worth listening to more than a few times will not have been written only or even principally for the benefit of its composer's peers, so it behoves itself that it communicates something vibrant (even if not necessarily immediate) to those listeners who are not fully versed in those areas of musical literacy in which the composer necessarily had to involve him/herself in its writing. Carter has not had to worry about all this kind of thing for some years now because he feels that those exercises form all those years ago have brought about for him a sense of fluency that means that he has no longer to have to put himself through all those hoops; I presume that he knows of what he speaks!

Best,

Alistair

Along these lines, I find it interesting how visceral some of Carter's musical priorities are (since I think a lot of people might consider him an "intellectual" composer). For example, he's said that he doesn't want his music sound like "ducks marching", but rather he wants it to flow like waves. So all of his compositional trappings are merely to satisfy his nuanced aesthetic sensibilities about what impression his music should give. Ligeti had similar priorities; his original musical inspiration was a dream he had as a boy of being trapped in a giant web of silk and having everything in his bedroom covered and trapped in this web of silk. The infinite complexity of the web, and the irreversibility of returning the web to its previous state once part of the web broke stuck with Ligeti for life. One can hear a lot of "glistening" surface complexity in Ligeti's work and also "irreversibility" of form. Sometimes his music will "attempt" to recapitulate but won't quite do it (think of the "repeat" in Désordre). It's interesting how non-musical influences can be cloaked in complex machinery and seem so cryptic to listeners; how some little preference or musical sensibility can serve as the cornerstone of a composer's entire output.

Best,

Ryan

[ryguillian]

I was only talking about the solo piano works from this century.  I only listened to the pieces (Matribute, Two Thoughts.. on the Oppens disc) twice and all I heard was boring atonal tinkering.  It may need a few more listens, I think.

If your criticism isn't more elaborate than "atonal tinkering" then you might need more than a few more listens.

Another suggestion:  Hikari Kiyama. 

Kiyama's music that I've heard seems pretty useless and, as Glenn Gould said of the worst kind of music, like a "momentary ejection of adrenaline"... this from somebody who has a pretty high tolerance for "weird" music (Barrett, Finnissy, Xenakis, Ligeti, Sorabji, Ferneyhough, et. al.).

Best,

Ryan

[ryguillian]

Some Finnissy/New Complexity is really nothing more than a "momentary ejection of adrenaline" (e.g., English Country-Tunes, PC4) covered with a thin facade of seriousness in the form of serene passages and ridiculous complexity.  Kiyama doesn't bother with this, which is why I think some of his works are a better "joke" than lots of New Complexity pieces.  I don't mean "joke" as a bad thing, though; I love crazy clusters and ridiculous music.

I don't know all pieces that have been labeled under the title "new complexity" and I don't even know all of Finnissy's pieces (although I think I've heard everything that's been recorded and made available to the public), so I can't comment on your virgule-delineated category in whole. But thankfully you did single out two pieces in particular (and your choice of pieces couldn't have been more bold!) and I can comment on those as I know them both quite well.

First, both works you mention were written (and revised) over a period of years, so I do not see how they can represent anything "momentary"; if they represent anything on the bounds of ecstatic they are the result of a sustained high. Specifically, the Piano Concerto No. 4 incorporates many techniques that Finnissy was developing in his études and in the piece Long Distance (subsequently withdrawn). Of course, some of Finnissy's writing does strike me as satyrical (such as the overzealous scales that constitute portions of the so-called "PC4"), but I'm quite sure that this is on purpose. Moreover, if you read the booklet that comes with Finnissy's recording of English Country-Tunes you'll learn that the emphasis should be placed phonetically on the cunt part of "country". Having corresponded with Michael quite a bit I can tell you there's nothing façade-like about his seriousness for music, so you really couldn't be more wrong.

The way you paint Kiyama as some type of symbiosis between Andy Warhol and Polonious is pretty offensive, and won't really fool anybody except yourself. And if he's a joke, then I'm afraid I don't get it.

Best,

Ryan

[ryguillian]

No one knows all of the works by New Complexity composers, so thanks for pointing out the obvious I guess? I was not commenting on the category as a whole (which is why I used the adjective "some") and neither should you.

Well I didn't comment on the category as a whole, and, to be clear, the purpose of the beginning of my previous post in this thread was to address just that. In case I wasn't clear: I can't address an ambiguous subset "some" of a set (viz. all works by composers under the title "new complexity") whose contents is unknown to me. I was not, as you misinterpreted, making a definitive statement about musical epistemology.

The full Gould quote is about the purpose of art.

The full quote (verbatim) is: "The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity."

Nice attempt trying to "launch" from this quote into some philosophaster's polemic on musical meaning and purpose, but I was merely deferring to a great musician to articulate my thoughts on a particularly awful composer (Kiyama).

What is the purpose of English Country-Tunes and PC4?

Presumably only the composer knows this. You're treading into an area so nebulous that even Adorno would cringe at. To attempt to answer such a quixotic question would require intellectual dishonesty which I just do not posses.

What do they represent?

And now you've gone symbolic and semiotic on me? They represent the efforts of the composer, no doubt. If you're asking this question in a more philosophical or rhetorical way, then I defer to the spirit of my previous responses.

They're pure adrenaline.

Funny, I thought you were the one asking questions! But you're providing answers, too? Why ask the questions in the first place?

Or a sustained high, which is essentially the same thing (actually, probably worse than a bout of adrenaline). 

So things that are "sustained" and things that are "momentary" are the same? I must lack the faculty of differentiation! Here I thought things that were "short" and things that were "long" were different (even essentially different), but now this changes everything! Are you going to publish these semantic findings to the Cambridge Journal of Linguistics?

How much time is put into composition and the techniques used are irrelevant since the representation is what matters.

Irrelevant to what? And I don't know what you're talking about when you mention "representation is what matters". You're making a lot of broad statements about the philosophical nature of music and aren't elaborating even a tiny bit on them. I think perhaps you should try painting in little dots before you try to make broad strokes.

"I'm afraid" that if you don't get the joke, then you're being intentionally antagonistic and I'm wasting my time with this response.

Faulty syllogism.

Best,

Ryan

[ryguillian]

I'm not trying to impress anyone here.

Not only are you not trying...

Best,

Ryan

[iumonito]

Wow.

Retro, good suggestions; I'll explore.

I am surprised that relatively little has been added after your helpful post listing some works.

What about works by African, Middle-Eastern, South Asian, and Latin American composers, and by women composers?  It sounds all very white-male oriented so far.

[pies]

a

[retrouvailles]

What about works by African, Middle-Eastern, South Asian, and Latin American composers, and by women composers?  It sounds all very white-male oriented so far.

As far as African composers go, South African Kevin Volans has some etudes written in 2003, but I have no idea what they are like. Judging from his previous work, I would think they would be good. His idiom is post-minimalist with some traditional African rhythmic elements. Regarding Middle Eastern composers, there's a great Israeli composer named Avner Dorman who wrote his piano sonata no. 2 in 2000 and his piano sonata no. 3 in 2005, and I would recommend either piece. I don't know of any South Asian composers' works off hand. Regarding Latin American composers, I will second the suggestion for the Brazilian Arthur Kampela's Nosturnos (1991, rev. 2003), but that piece is fiercely difficult. For women composers, Finnish composer Kaija Saariaho recently wrote a Prelude and Ballade (2005) for Roland Pöntinen which is good. Also, the American Augusta Read Thomas has a set of Etudes (1996-2005) which could work also.

[ahinton]

I had similar frustration with the Piano Concerto: I had to listen to it—not exaggerating—at least 35-45 times before I "got" it.

This can happen on occasion, though rarely, I imagne, would so many listenings be necessary before the penny drops, so to speak; when you did first "get it", was it on the occasion of having heard a different performance from any that you'd listened to previously? Just curious. I've listened to his Third Quartet around 50 times since it first came out; I still don't get it at all and I think I've now given up, although I am tempted to listen to it played by the Pacifica Quartet who, as you may know, are the first ensemble ever to perform all five Carter quartets in a single programme (although I've not actually heard them do so yet).

Anyway - I digress...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I haven't actually heard either of these works, but your criticism of Intermittences reminds me of something that Carter said about his Symphony of Three Orchestras; he said something like (my paraphrase from memory), "I don't intend for people to actually hear the three separate orchestras, but I'm trying to create an impression like somebody looking through a kaleidoscope." In light of this, I think Carter might sometimes use "orgazational schemes" that aren't necessarially communicated in music, but create an impression. Ferneyhough does a lot of similar things (see Richard Toop's article on Lemma-Icon-Epigram for example) he creates ad hoc "mazes" that he has to get himself out of and work in. Constriction (via musical form) and expression in music are as betwixt as those two spent swimmers from Macbeth, but thankfully don't choke their art.

Some very pertinent points here. It is true that Carter is thought of by many people as a rpofoundly "intellectual" composer and those who know how extensive and elaborate were his sketches for pieces he wrote from around 1960 to the early 1970s probably does little to dispel such a view, but to regard him in this way is to miss the point. I really don't think that Carter is that interseted in informing his listeners about his processes; rather, he tends to take a view akin to Schönberg's "these are the things of the composer's workshop". What he does do in his work, however, is concern himself very much with matters of human interaction and in nature, hence, for example, the various contrasting and often simultaneous "conversations" that go on in the quartets and the "trees in a storm" that informs his Concerto for Orchestra (one of his greatest works, I think). Intermittences embraces just another example of the former and the basis of the poem that underpins and motivates Symphonia: Sum Fluxæ Pretium Spei (arguably his crowning achievement to date) is in many senses an instance of the latter. When Carter was interviewed immediately before the world première of Dialogues for piano and orchestra (I was present), he contrasted it with the Piano Concerto by referring to the lightness of touch in the new work compared to the dark and tragic thoughts that were preoccupying him when writing the earlier one (although those were not the reasons why I'd found it so hard to get inside that work). In sum, for all that Carter has, in mid-career especially, gone to enormous lengths to find the best ways in which to express his thoughts, he has found it much easier to do so in more recent times (probably at least in part as a result of all that work), hence the rapid outpouring of new pieces as he approached his centenary. In sum, it is the sheer humanity in Carter's music that strikes me as its most salient and powerful characteristic.

And I, of course, should really have posted this in the Carter thread! Sorry!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Along these lines, I find it interesting how visceral some of Carter's musical priorities are (since I think a lot of people might consider him an "intellectual" composer). For example, he's said that he doesn't want his music sound like "ducks marching", but rather he wants it to flow like waves. So all of his compositional trappings are merely to satisfy his nuanced aesthetic sensibilities about what impression his music should give. Ligeti had similar priorities; his original musical inspiration was a dream he had as a boy of being trapped in a giant web of silk and having everything in his bedroom covered and trapped in this web of silk. The infinite complexity of the web, and the irreversibility of returning the web to its previous state once part of the web broke stuck with Ligeti for life. One can hear a lot of "glistening" surface complexity in Ligeti's work and also "irreversibility" of form. Sometimes his music will "attempt" to recapitulate but won't quite do it (think of the "repeat" in Désordre). It's interesting how non-musical influences can be cloaked in complex machinery and seem so cryptic to listeners; how some little preference or musical sensibility can serve as the cornerstone of a composer's entire output.

Again, you have gotten to the heart of some things here that are of as much interest as they are of importance; what I also feel, however, is that it can be even more interesting still when a composer's work can find its way across to a wide(ish) variety of people despite this kind of thing having helped to inform its creation.

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

Did I miss something?  2 days ago Hinty and Ryan were at each other's throats (not literally of course - no need to comment on that!) Now all seems fine?  Nothing like the power of discussing Elliot Carter's piano compositions to bring 2 people to togetehr once again (not literally!)

[ahinton]

Did I miss something?  2 days ago Hinty and Ryan were at each other's throats (not literally of course - no need to comment on that!) Now all seems fine?  Nothing like the power of discussing Elliot Carter's piano compositions to bring 2 people to togetehr once again (not literally!)

You didn't miss anything; in fact, you could probably have done with missing something! No, actually you did miss something - and it is this. Unlike some people, I do not go at other people's throats, either literally or figuratively (as Thal has implied) and I have less than no interest in so doing. What I do, however, is try to respond to what others write in as intelligent and intelligble manner as I am able (with whatever shortcomings that may involve) and, if what they write is interesting both of itself and to me personally, I will try to respond accordingly, just as if what someone writes comprises nothing but gratuituos rubbish, attempts at insult and the rest, I will also respond accordingly; it's as simple as that - except to add that it is a pity that some people do choose from time to time to do the latter, much to the irritation and chagrin of quite a few members here.

And for the umpteenth time, Mr Carter's foremane has

TWO

Ts!

He gets to his one hundred and first year and yet some people still write of him as "Elliot"...

Thank you!

Now - back to the topic...

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

This can happen on occasion, though rarely, I imagne, would so many listenings be necessary before the penny drops, so to speak; when you did first "get it", was it on the occasion of having heard a different performance from any that you'd listened to previously?

No, I listened to Oppens's recording, but there was a long span of time (maybe 5-6 months) between sessions.

Best,

Ryan

[ahinton]

No, I listened to Oppens's recording, but there was a long span of time (maybe 5-6 months) between sessions.

OK - well, so be it; just curious, that's all (and now you have satisfied my curiosity).

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

Anyway, to get back to the original topic:

Arthur Kampela's Nosturnos is a great piece.  Haven't seen the score but it certainly sounds quite difficult.

You edited this post quite a bit, but I get the gist of it: you weren't up to the task to defend your half-assed comments about a composer whose music you know nothing about.

Best,

Ryan

[ryguillian]

OK - well, so be it; just curious, that's all (and now you have satisfied my curiosity).

Best,

Alistair

This is actually something I've struggled with quite a bit... this whole thing of obsessively listening to something until I "get it". With Ligeti's 2nd String Quartet for example I was listening to it maybe 10-15 times a day and so focused microscopically with every little detail that when I heard a different recording I noticed some of the little background noises were absent and this caused me a great deal of stress. With that particular work what bothered me was the way in which individual movements were related to one another. It led me to a series of thoughts on how movements of a piece can be related to one another (I came up with various categories; e.g., if two movements use the same instrumentation then they're "related"; if they exist as a contrast between eachother [slow/fast] then they're "related", etc.) After a while I just sorta gave up and then maybe a few months later re-listened and it just "clicked'. But at the same time, sometimes I don't like if I can't logically understand a piece of music because familiarity can create pleasure even if what one is listening to is just memorized "random" noise. One should have some sense of narrative in music.

Best,

Ryan

[ahinton]

This is actually something I've struggled with quite a bit... this whole thing of obsessively listening to something until I "get it". With Ligeti's 2nd String Quartet for example I was listening to it maybe 10-15 times a day and so focused microscopically with every little detail that when I heard a different recording I noticed some of the little background noises were absent and this caused me a great deal of stress. With that particular work what bothered me was the way in which individual movements were related to one another. It led me to a series of thoughts on how movements of a piece can be related to one another (I came up with various categories; e.g., if two movements use the same instrumentation then they're "related"; if they exist as a contrast between eachother [slow/fast] then they're "related", etc.) After a while I just sorta gave up and then maybe a few months later re-listened and it just "clicked'. But at the same time, sometimes I don't like if I can't logically understand a piece of music because familiarity can create pleasure even if what one is listening to is just memorized "random" noise. One should have some sense of narrative in music.

Yes, this all makes sense - not least the bit about the stress which, frankly, could just as easily have come about merely by listening intently to one work as frequently as you did to that quartet at one time; it is often beneficial to give some time and space between listenings. For example, I've never listened to Carter 3 more than once a month! (and I still don't "get it"! - must be abit dense, I guess - me, that is, not the quartet...)

Best,

Alistair

[iumonito]

OK, here is a first try (I think this is about 90 minutes): 

What are your thoughts about a program like this:

Augusta Read Thomas:  Traces
Peter Sculthorpe's: Little Passacaglia
Kevin Volans: 3 rhythmic etudes

***

Lera Auerbach:  Sonata for Piano No. 1 “La Fenice”
I. Moderato
II. Allegro ma non troppo
III. L`istesso tempo
IV. Moderato ma con moto
V. Andante
VI. Adagio religioso

Lera Auerbach:  Sonata for Piano No.2 “Il Segno”
I. Adagio tragico
II. Toccata
III. GraveI
IV. Allegro

Another option is to only do one of the Auerbach sonatas, move the Volans etudes to the second half, and add Elliott Carter: Intermittences & Caténaires at the end of the first half.

[iumonito]

Now comes the tricky question of obtaining scores.

(and by the way, I know this is going to stir the animus of the discussion, but it is simply a misguidance that modern music, which needs all the help it can get for disemination, is crippled by the absurdly and most significantly prohibitive prices of the scores).

US$ 20 buys a good copy of the 32 sonatas of Beethoven (assuming you want a book instead of printing them off the Internet for free); the same $20 is not even close to buying you one Kapustin score (and Kapustin has everything to become widly popular - imagine with compositions that have a more challengng profile for the audience!).

[retrouvailles]

OK, here is a first try (I think this is about 90 minutes): 

What are your thoughts about a program like this:

Augusta Read Thomas:  Traces
Peter Sculthorpe's: Little Passacaglia
Kevin Volans: 3 rhythmic etudes

***

Lera Auerbach:  Sonata for Piano No. 1 “La Fenice”
I. Moderato
II. Allegro ma non troppo
III. L`istesso tempo
IV. Moderato ma con moto
V. Andante
VI. Adagio religioso

Lera Auerbach:  Sonata for Piano No.2 “Il Segno”
I. Adagio tragico
II. Toccata
III. GraveI
IV. Allegro

Another option is to only do one of the Auerbach sonatas, move the Volans etudes to the second half, and add Elliott Carter: Intermittences & Caténaires at the end of the first half.

I suggest you listen to the majority of these pieces before making your decision. The two Auerbach sonatas in the 2nd half would be incredibly heavy. The first half is incredibly light, on the other hand. Your idea of moving things around and substituting the Carter is better, but I think your program should have a bit more variety in general. I would do one of the Carters, one Auerbach, get rid of either the Augusta Read Thomas or Volans, save the Sculthorpe as an encore (or Carter's Caténaires), and pick something else. It's too largely female oriented right now, heh.

[iumonito]

Funny, "too largely female-oriented."

I think it is sad that someone could even think that seriously.  Great music is great music, and we have thought very little of program upon program composed exclussively of music by European white males.

OK, so, move Volans to start the second half (I like his music, so it will stay), and add Carter at the end of the second half.

Traces is a very good piece, so it will also stay.  I have not heard the Carter pieces or the Passacaglia, so maybe they would become encores.  That would create room for another 10 to 15 minutes of music after Traces to finish the first half.  More suggestions welcome!

(Please work upon what we are building, as I really like Thomas, Volans and Auerbach's music - the little I have heard - and for now I will try to get the scores).

Oh, and how does one get scores for this?  I am wondering what library would send them to me inter-library loan.  Anyone at IU?

[indutrial]

Funny, "too largely female-oriented."

I think it is sad that someone could even think that seriously.  Great music is great music, and we have thought very little of program upon program composed exclussively of music by European white males.

I think he was joking. If anything, it's a bit too Auerbach-oriented, unless that's the theme of the recital.

[iumonito]

 

yep, I read it as a joke too, but the fact remains that such joke does highlight the absurdity that women composers have been for the longest time outcasts among non-pop music composers.

Auerbach, fascinating as it is, is down to one of the two sonatas; so what other music could be programmed to close the first-half?

Any beautiful Indian or Chinese work for piano solo written in the last eight years?  Since Traces is a set of character pieces, and there is a set of etudes and a sonata, it would be nice to have something in a contrasting form (variations or a solid single movement).

[jabbz]

Would you consider slotting in some Finnissy?

[iumonito]

Would you consider slotting in some Finnissy?

But of course!  Or Toovey.

What has been written during the last 8 years?

[jabbz]

Some of the History of Photography in Sound is that recent, and of programmable length, but it's pretty tricky, not impossible though. Check out his publishers, they'd had some more information.

[iumonito]

Wasn't Mr. Finnissy working on Tangos?  That would be particularly interesting to me.

Who knows? Alistair?  Mr. Powell?  Anyone?

[jabbz]

I think Prof.Finnissy finished the Tangos in 1999, just short of the 21stC, however, I think any of Finnissy's music is fair game, he's still a very current and active composer.

[jpowell]

Many of Finnissy Verdi Transcriptions were written this decade.
Also, John White has written about 40 piano sonatas.

[indutrial]

Many of Finnissy Verdi Transcriptions were written this decade.
Also, John White has written about 40 piano sonatas.

John White's prolific output piano sonatas has been understood for some time around here. I wish that some of his works would actually be available for purchase or free distribution (like Rzewski's work). As of now, his works sound potentially interesting, but that's where it ends until he decides to let more of his work go public.

There's a Dutch composer named Jan van Dijk who, similarly, has a monster catalog boasting over 50 piano sonatines and loads of other works, but, like White, none of it can be found in libraries or for sale.

[ahinton]

John White's prolific output piano sonatas has been understood for some time around here. I wish that some of his works would actually be available for purchase or free distribution (like Rzewski's work). As of now, his works sound potentially interesting, but that's where it ends until he decides to let more of his work go public.

There's a Dutch composer named Jan van Dijk who, similarly, has a monster catalog boasting over 50 piano sonatines and loads of other works, but, like White, none of it can be found in libraries or for sale.

Jonathan Powell, who has, of course, played a number of White's sonatas on several occasions, almost certainly knows more than the rest of us here about how to source these scores; I'm sorry to say that I cannot personally help out with this one as I am not sure what the situation is.

Best,

Alistair