4th finger independence

[yeli_v]

Hi,


Anyone know any exercises for the independence of the 4th finger? I find the 5th finger easier to train, but with the 4th finger on both hands I always have a problem playing certain chords. Since the 3rd and 4th fingers are connected by only one ligament, I was wondering whether that (independence of the 4th finger from the 3rd) could be trained to move itself separately through practice or some other special method.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[thalbergmad]

I suggest that you would find much on this subject if you did a forum search.

The great Bernhard used to say that you would need surgery to obtain 4th finger independence and i think he said it was an illusion anyway.

As for me, i do trills.

Thal

[yeli_v]

I suggest that you would find much on this subject if you did a forum search.

The great Bernhard used to say that you would need surgery to obtain 4th finger independence and i think he said it was an illusion anyway.

As for me, i do trills.

Thal

Thanks. Will do.

[richard black]

The great Bernhard used to say that you would need surgery to obtain 4th finger independence

I believe that is literally correct. Of course there's 4th finger independence in a limited sense and lots of books of exercises tackle the issue.

[ahinton]

I believe that is literally correct. Of course there's 4th finger independence in a limited sense and lots of books of exercises tackle the issue.

Indeed; one has to make some kind of compromise. Likewise, someone once said that, had God intended Man to play the piano, He would not have designed him with thumbs. Godowsky advocated the complete independence of every digit and, as you say, there is plenty of pedagogical material out there that addresses such issues. All that I would counsel anyone concerned about this to do is (a) keep it in proportion and don't obsess over it (there are plenty of other problems to address, after all) and (b) don't try to do anything dangerous or risky!

Best,

Alistair

[m]

Likewise, someone once said that, had God intended Man to play the piano, He would not have designed him with thumbs.

I would disagree with this someone's statement. Just think how one would play a simple E major scale with no thumb...

As for the original question, the 4th finger independance is a matter of mental control over uniform touch. In other words, first you need to find the touch (i.e. your own sound) when your finger tips and ears feel completely connected. In order to do that there should be no any tension on the way, as it blocks and distracts the flowing current and signal of feedback. Once you find this feeling you won't have that question anymore.

Best, M

[ahvat]

I work in the warehouse and I dealing picking up shoes, so building finger dexterity is my main thing. My fingers are alot stronger than before, and I use both my left and my 4th and 5th finger more. I trained myself so that I can work with 2 hands whether its piano or just drawing or writing on paper. I completed Czerny etude and now working on Pischna with my teacher.

[birba]

Just don't go and get obsessed with it and ruin your hand like Schuman did.  The third fourth and fifth fingers are more or less attached to each other.  When you play your fourth finger, let the 3 and 5 articulate with it.  Keep it loose and free.  A tiny bit of excercising the fourth finger while holding the other fingers in a chord position doesn't hurt as long as you keep the movement REALLY minimum and light.

[anda]

there are a lot of exercise books and methods (hanon, herz, pischna, etc) - these can help you build technique, and most of the exercises can help build finger independence - at the same time, they can be very dangerous (wrong use of the apparatus in doing these can easily result in injures.
personally, i never used these methods (my teachers tried to make me, but i was too lazy ) - i only practiced on works. eventually, fingers become independent enough to play this or that, and it gets better and easier with every new piece you learn and practice on.

best luck

[opus10no2]

The great Bernhard used to say that you would need surgery to obtain 4th finger independence and i think he said it was an illusion anyway.

Why doesn't anyone actually have this surgery?

[m]

Why doesn't anyone actually have this surgery?

'cause it will do nothing and hopefully people understand it. You see, with all due respect that almost mythical figure called "Great Bernhard" had way too much of crap to offer to the public, and this one is not way too far out that line.
I would not trust someone whom I never hear to play, and most of all, does not have (as he admits himself) enough knowledge, ability, and means of preparing and educating a concert, or at least just professional pianist. Sorry to say, all that "wealth of information" for me is a great buble--something that once challenged he cannot even defend himself. In fact, he could not defend one single his own idea once I challenged it.

IMO, on this board he did more harm than good, giving numerous wrong messages to people, who don't know any better.

Best, M

[birba]

Alright, here I go again.  Who is this "Great Bernhard"?!

[javacisnotrecognized]

Alright, here I go again.  Who is this "Great Bernhard"?!

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=1627

He posted alot of information that would otherwise be hard to find in a single concentrated place, and became extremely popular.

In fact, he could not defend one single his own idea once I challenged it.

IIRC, he mentioned that his ideas are based on the concept of an experiment - take two approximately equal entities, apply his ideas to one, and different ideas to the other. At the end of some duration of time, compare the results.

As far as I can tell nobody actually ever went through with it . . .

[db05]

Sorry to say, all that "wealth of information" for me is a great buble--something that once challenged he cannot even defend himself. In fact, he could not defend one single his own idea once I challenged it.

IMO, on this board he did more harm than good, giving numerous wrong messages to people, who don't know any better.

Information is just plain data if not applied. The people who did went through with following advice did not complain about wrong teachings. So what "numerous wrong messages"? btw, "bernhard's ideas" weren't just his own. He just happened to post a lot of them.

[jgallag]

Likewise, someone once said that, had God intended Man to play the piano, He would not have designed him with thumbs.

Perhaps, but a man designed the piano, and so I'm certain it was made with human physiology in mind. After all, he didn't design it to look pretty, it was supposed to sound pretty, implying that people play it. Besides, the piano was invented long after Bach, who I believe is credited with use of the thumb in keyboard playing. I may be wrong, but the piano was designed long after humans had figured out that yes, the keyboard would be played using all of the fingers. Whether or not you view the piano as an inspiration by God is up to you. I personally do, but that's a religious question. 

[thalbergmad]

I would not trust someone whom I never hear to play, and most of all, does not have (as he admits himself) enough knowledge, ability, and means of preparing and educating a concert, or at least just professional pianist.

I myself find it easier to take instruction from someone who can practise what they preach and actually can play anything that i would be required to learn.

That is not to say that there are probably very good teachers who are not 1st class pianists themselves.

I always suspected that Bernhard's theories would be of use to beginners, but would not be sufficient to take one anywhere near competition standard. It just sounded all too easy.

Of course, i could well be wrong.

Thal

[alhimia]

'cause it will do nothing and hopefully people understand it. You see, with all due respect that almost mythical figure called "Great Bernhard" had way too much of crap to offer to the public, and this one is not way too far out that line.
I would not trust someone whom I never hear to play, and most of all, does not have (as he admits himself) enough knowledge, ability, and means of preparing and educating a concert, or at least just professional pianist. Sorry to say, all that "wealth of information" for me is a great buble--something that once challenged he cannot even defend himself. In fact, he could not defend one single his own idea once I challenged it.

IMO, on this board he did more harm than good, giving numerous wrong messages to people, who don't know any better.

Best, M

Who asked you to trust Bernhard? Certainly not he himself. He always said that no one needs to trust anybody and that ideas always should stand on themselves, not on authorities.
Why would you like to hear him play? To see if he can play the piano? Ha, I could easily present you to hundreds if not many more pianists with - usually due to very good teachers -  oustanding technical, musical and artistical abilities, but don't even come a bit close to Bernhards knowledge of piano/technique/music, insights in teaching, willingness to share it on a public forum, humour, intelligence, etc. So what's your point? If Bernhard could play flawlessly Hammerklavier, Goldberg var. or Islamey, would he then be much more credible to you?
When he says that he doesn't educate professional concert pianists, you should really take into account what HE means by it, that is pianists that, besides the basicall stuff, know about acoustics, playing in stressfull conditions, competitions, stage performance/behaviour etc. This can be learnt only from top artists with much experience on stage. Bernhard choosed to prepare his students only through beginning-intermediate-advanced stages because he dedicates himself fully to teaching only, not performing. And by the way, did you hear ANY of his students play? What are you talking about? Who are you to judge that they are not up to the concert pianist standard?

And do you really think he cannot defend himself? Haha, well, let me tell you this: I wouldn't do either, because someone who calls his - indeed - wealth of information just crap and a great buble is simply not worth to argue with. he is just bored repeating it over and over again. I am sorry but I really think you are wrong this time.

I now have read most of Bernhard's post and it helped me alot in solving  problems in piano playing, teaching and even in 'live' in general. I am very gratefull to him without ever having mentioned it before or given him any credit.

For anyone who also thinks Bernhard's ideas are just some crap: just try them out and read it TO THE LETTER what he writes, since he chooses his words very exact and carefully. Then, I would be willing to accept any of your challenges.

A.

[thalbergmad]

If Bernhard could play flawlessly Hammerklavier, Goldberg var. or Islamey, would he then be much more credible to you?

Yes

[ramseytheii]

Yes

Really?  But there are certainly those (I've met them) that can play those pieces, and have no idea what they are talking about still!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

'cause it will do nothing and hopefully people understand it. You see, with all due respect that almost mythical figure called "Great Bernhard" had way too much of crap to offer to the public, and this one is not way too far out that line.

When you say "this one," you're referring to Bernhard's ironic suggestion of surgery to free the fourth finger.  But I think you missed the irony - he wasn't actually saying people should do it.  Could your negative feelings towards him be the result of misunderstandings?

I would not trust someone whom I never hear to play, and most of all, does not have (as he admits himself) enough knowledge, ability, and means of preparing and educating a concert, or at least just professional pianist. Sorry to say, all that "wealth of information" for me is a great buble--something that once challenged he cannot even defend himself. In fact, he could not defend one single his own idea once I challenged it.

Hmm - in that case I am very different.  I know one person in particular, who is a piano teacher, who does not play the piano (and probably never played as a virtuoso), but whose words and small demonstrations liberated generations from tense, inefficient playing.  Trust for me doesn't come from, can they do it, but rather, do the ideas work?  Are they right? 

On the flip side there are those students who have been destroyed by teachers who can play without effort, and explain it in the most ridiculous way, because that's the way it "feels."  I just think you are being too extreme.

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

Really?  But there are certainly those (I've met them) that can play those pieces, and have no idea what they are talking about still!

If they can play it, talking about it is of lesser importance?

A well played phrase speaks a million words.

Thal

[m]

I know one person in particular, who is a piano teacher, who does not play the piano (and probably never played as a virtuoso), but whose words and small demonstrations liberated generations from tense, inefficient playing.  Trust for me doesn't come from, can they do it, but rather, do the ideas work?  Are they right? 

Walter,

Absolutely! My professor in Moscow Conservatory was Lev Naumov, who was not a concert pianist, nevertheless was a genius and legend, and gave to the music world generations of some incredible pianists, including Alexei Nasedkin, Vladimir Viardo, Andrei Gavrilov, Ilya Itin, Alexei Sultanov, Lexo Toradze, Sergey Babayan, and many others.

The thing is IMO, many of Bernhard's ideas just do not work, and are against and contrary to the music phrasing, music logic, pianistic motion, and natural way of piano playing and thinking. Not long ago I had someone here in my house (very serious, dedicated, and professionally trained person), who was trying some of his ideas (specifically rotation for a phrase), and that was a disaster. Since Bernhard did not care to reply to many of my messages (for which BTW, I spent long time to prepare, carefully finding words, etc.) naturally, I wanted at least to hear him (or even better, his sudents)... just out of curiosity, to see if it is a simple misunderstanding, when people put such an illusive thing as music into words.

Sure, he is an intelligent and clever person and some of his insights are invaluable, however, I feel that his approach to piano is much more from logic deductions, and just out of desire to be original for sake of being original, rather than dictated by musical necessities. And maybe my biggest problem with him is I feel there is a lack of individual approach to student needs.

Indeed, I might be too extreme, but here some of his other ideas which to me sound like a bubble:

Cortot had faulty and tailored technique
There is no such thing as Russian school
Thumb over
The whole idea of technique categorizing and list of techniques
Technique is personal and related to the piece
Real technique is easy and does not need to bo practised
His idea of chosing repertoire
His approach to scales and etudes
His aikido analogy
His constant debunkings, etc. etc. etc.

And that was just from top of my head...

Best, M

[m]

Who are you to judge...?

Do you have an University position opening? If it is in comfortable for me location and has interesting job description I could consider sending you my resume. Otherwise, make some search here to figure it out yourself.

Best wishes, M

[arensky]

IIRC, he mentioned that his ideas are based on the concept of an experiment - take two approximately equal entities, apply his ideas to one, and different ideas to the other. At the end of some duration of time, compare the results.

As far as I can tell nobody actually ever went through with it . . .

I never read that he advocated that, but a couple of years ago I stopped Hanon exercises for two students (who hated them anyway) but continued them with other students about the same age and level. For awhile there was no difference but soon the Hanonites were in the lead technically. Whether this had to do with Hanon or with their own predisposition for technical practice, I'm not sure. But I think Bernhard's main point in his Hanon bashing was that the students should be playing real music instead of mechanical patterns. Of course, keyboard music is comprised of mechanical patterns and physical motions but it seems to me (and many many others) that isolating those patterns and motions objectively away from the music improves the purely physical aspects of playing. For some, it doesn't seem to matter. As Gieseking said regarding practice, "The one who has to bathe obviously needs to." Or maybe some of us like bathing... 

[Petter]

With Bernards post I feel like I do with all advices given on Internet or in books. You can´t simply explain anything related to piano only by text, you have to be interacting in person with a teacher (and a piano) that knows it to "get it". I think looking at pianists playing on Youtube is far more useful then to read blocks of text. That´s just my personal (and lazy) view.

[anda]

Hi,


Anyone know any exercises for the independence of the 4th finger? I find the 5th finger easier to train, but with the 4th finger on both hands I always have a problem playing certain chords. Since the 3rd and 4th fingers are connected by only one ligament, I was wondering whether that (independence of the 4th finger from the 3rd) could be trained to move itself separately through practice or some other special method.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[birba]

WOW!  What have I been missing?  This Barnard guy sounds like some new Messiah who has divided pianoforum in two.  Not one to remain indifferent to.  I wonder if there's a place to look up all his postings.

[allthumbs]

WOW!  What have I been missing?  This Barnard guy sounds like some new Messiah who has divided pianoforum in two.  Not one to remain indifferent to.  I wonder if there's a place to look up all his postings.

Click here.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=1627;sa=showPosts

[birba]

Thanks. VERY interesting and knowledgeable person!   I can see now how he creates "ripples" in the pond.

[jgallag]

I think bernhard's ideas are sensible. My only problem is that, when I try them out, his 1st level of mastery doesn't happen for me in 20 minutes. Sure, that means I should make it smaller, and I usually do, but then those smaller sessions end up becoming a series of 20 minute sessions in a row, and, while I get stuff done, working on the Chopin Scherzo No. 2, Bach's P&F in D Major Bk I, Barber's Excursions, and the Haydn Sonata in E minor makes it quite difficult to apply his method now. Plus, I'm at the stage where I still need my teacher to show me the proper motions to execute the various figures. While I'm sure I could do much more on my own now that she's taught me a world of things, it's not exactly time to reapply bernhard's method, since I have an audition in six weeks. But you can be assured I will try to work his ideas into my practice over the summer more formally than the way I use them now.

Bernhard's method provides two key things that many students lack in their practice: organization and consistency. I believe this is where the value comes from, in addition to his little tricks that make learning the notes easier. He gives a formula and outline for practice when many students simply play the piece everyday, see what parts are sagging, and do little spot checks that may or may not get reinforced on a daily basis. It's a little too chaotic. There's no guarantee that anything will stick. Besides, his comparison of learning music and making wine is absolutely genius. One of my favorite passages on our art.

On the topic of fourth finger independence: First, there is no such thing. The idea of finger independence is an illusion we use during passagework to indicate that the fingers are operating without each other. Your fingers are still very much dependent on the hand, the forearm, the upper arm, and the torso. They cannot go places on their own. Anyways, I've mentioned playing from the knuckles elsewhere on another topic, but it works here to. You'd be surprised at how effortless playing can be if you focus energy on the knuckle where your finger joins the hand instead of at the fingertips. It gives a regularity to the power supplied and it's much, much faster. That, and connecting phrases with an overall movement of the wrist (which is really a result of movement in the forearm and hand) should help. Mostly, it's just about listening. Listen, slow it down until you can make it sound like you want it, then practice whatever you're doing to get what you want, and do it everyday until it's easy and you won't forget it.

[cmg]

What I love most about Bernhard is:

1) his unfailingly logical explanations for his pronouncements on technique and repertoire.

2) the debate he stirs up among some of the most valuable members of this forum.

These debates are provocative and helpful. 

Ironically, no one on either side -- Bernhard's or marik's -- has convinced me that their position is, indeed, the one, God-ordained approach to pianism.  By applying the invaluable advice offered by both sides, I've found my own way to improvement and mastery.  And, ironically, it seems to me that both Bernhard and marik would approve wholeheartedly of this outcome. 

Every pianist is different.  The hands of every pianist are different from the hands of other pianists.  The solutions to technical/musical problems, therefore, are particular to each pianist.  Yes, some obvious basics do apply:  no tension and all movements must serve the music.  But, beyond that, there are infinite shades of digression from technical dogma that each pianist must search out and apply to fit his/her own particular apparatus.   And that search takes courage and intelligence.

I've studied with some very great pianists in my day.  Interestingly, the greatest of them, the ones with true musical genius and flawless technique, were the absolute worst in conveying how they do what they do.  With them, I asked them to play for me, and I studied them like something in a petri dish.  But, often what they could do at the keyboard was entirely dependent on the particular construction of their hands and fingers.  So, even what I observed was never "gospel."  I had to practice like a demon and adapt it to my own hands.

(This phenomenon, btw, I also observed when working as a student accompanist in voice studios of famous singers who had retired to teaching.  More often than not, the teachers who were most famous as artists in their prime were totally inept in helping voice students solve their vocal problems!)

This debate puts out wonderfully useful information that each of us has to experiment with and decide what works for us.

Be grateful that marik, Bernhard et al. disagree!  We all benefit.   

[jazzyprof]

'cause it will do nothing and hopefully people understand it. You see, with all due respect that almost mythical figure called "Great Bernhard" had way too much of crap to offer to the public, and this one is not way too far out that line.
I would not trust someone whom I never hear to play, and most of all, does not have (as he admits himself) enough knowledge, ability, and means of preparing and educating a concert, or at least just professional pianist. Sorry to say, all that "wealth of information" for me is a great buble--something that once challenged he cannot even defend himself. In fact, he could not defend one single his own idea once I challenged it.

IMO, on this board he did more harm than good, giving numerous wrong messages to people, who don't know any better.

Best, M

Marik: do you honestly believe that Bernhard was advocating surgery in order to attain fourth finger independence?  If you do, then you have no comprehension of irony.  You have used this statement of his as a platform to launch an attack on Bernhard.  This is most unbecoming of you.  There is no one correct approach to piano mastery and reasonable people will differ on methods.  Why do you feel that Bernhard has to defend his ideas against your attacks?  He never claimed to be God.  All he said was that the methods he advocates work for his students.  He then tried to share those methods with us.
 
He never called himself “Great Bernhard”.  He simply took the time to share in great, voluminous detail, his approach to piano pedagogy.  This was an act of generosity on his part.  If you have an approach to share that you think would benefit students, why not share it in detail rather than attacking Bernhard for sharing?  Or are you simply jealous that Bernhard is highly regarded around here?

[m19834]

Not long ago I had someone here in my house (very serious, dedicated, and professionally trained person), who was trying some of his ideas (specifically rotation for a phrase), and that was a disaster.

The fact that every respondant to this thread has apparently chosen to ignore your statement here --your experience being a telling one I'm sure-- leads me to believe that Bernhard is not living alone in the bubble.

[db05]

*waits for bernhard to return and clear up any misunderstandings*

[m]

The fact that every respondant to this thread has apparently chosen to ignore your statement here --your experience being a telling one I'm sure-- leads me to believe that Bernhard is not living alone in the bubble.

This is a strange place--Internet. People say they want a wheel and post a squared one. You tell them: "No!!! Don't use squared wheel, use a round one. That is the round wheel which works the best!!!". In return you hear: "Well, you are just jealous. I'd better try rectangular, next".

Heh...  

[db05]

This is a strange place--Internet. People say they want a wheel and post a squared one. You tell them: "No!!! Don't use squared wheel, use a round one. That is the round wheel which works the best!!!". In return you hear: "Well, you are just jealous. I'd better try rectangular, next".

Heh...  

That is just tragic. What I find funny if that people are looking for better wheels when what they need is more gasoline.

[cmg]

The fact that every respondant to this thread has apparently chosen to ignore your statement here --your experience being a telling one I'm sure-- leads me to believe that Bernhard is not living alone in the bubble.

No one, I don't think, is willfully ignoring marik's statement or experience about the disaster when "someone here in my house . . . who was trying some of his [Bernhard's] ideas, specifically rotation for a phrase) and that was a disaster."  

We don't know what the musical phrase in question was nor Bernhard's specific advice on how to play it.  Not enough info, so, on my part, I chose to be silent about this aspect of marik's post.  I thought I was being respectful.

My post, which you've ignored, Karli,   indicates that all hands are different and not any one approach, IMO, works for everyone.  Some of marik's expert opinions on how I should approach a passage may not work for me, but I'd never claim that his advice was anything less than expert.  

[jgallag]

@db05 - Bernhard hasn't posted in three months, nor been on the forums. I would assume he's busy, or perhaps believes it is not his battle.

@marik - Yes, please elaborate on your instances and your problems too. If you are right, we could all gain from your insights, but you haven't given us enough to go on, yet.

[m]

My post ...   indicates that all hands are different and not any one approach, IMO, works for everyone.  

Absolutely, moreover, not only all hands are different, but also all people are different, and everyone needs a different personal approach, as well. And this is my biggest problem with Bernhard, as I feel that his approach is rigid and seem to be carved into a stone--Scarlatti is good-Czerni is bad. Thumb over is good-thumb under is bad. His fingering for scales is good, conventional fingering is bad. Let's debunk that, this, and those, etc. etc. etc. , with no any hint on individual approach. This is where I see the "wrong message".

I myself emphasised here many times that it is impossible to help someone until you see the problem yourself (or in many cases even spend with the person sometime, as the problem can be completely unrelated, and personal one). Each problem needs different solution, and for some Scarlatti works the best, but for some Czerni is invaluable. For some hands one fingering works the best, but for others it is disaster. Some phrases indeed can be played with rolling motion, however, many cannot. Some scales should be played conventionally (i.e. thumb under), but for some the thumb over will be a solution. It is best for some students to leave repertoire choices for themselves, but for some (might be most of the cases) you need to lead them methodically, developing the pianism in a most effective and efficient way, according to the student strengths and weaknesses,  etc. etc. etc.

There are however, some fundamental principals, which are common for everbody and are a foundation of any strong and accomplished pianism:

Music image comes first.
Complete relaxation and freedom, both mental and physical, so there is no any barrier for the music image to "flow" into the finger tips. 
Careful listening to yourself and correcting things "on a fly" as for what sound your finger tip produces and how your music image is realized.
Analyzing and realizing precisely how music, its melodic, harmonic, and emotional context, its phrasing and shape, etc. dictates your pianistic motion and gesture.
All that should be based on the main technical principal, which is accumulation and then immediate release of energy, when your finger returns into "idle" state and whole your body is resting.
All this together produces that touch, or sound, which ultimately is what the whole technique is all about.
More on that here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,26910.0.html

And here is the main and most important thing--physically, playing piano is only 10%. The rest 90% is "idling" state, giving you room for hard and intense mental work.

Best, M

P.S. Sorry for a long post. I always think if one cannot put things into a short and consise form (one or (most) two paragraphs), then one does not have a good grasp of the idea. Here however, we needed to cover a lot of stuff.

[m]

... but you haven't given us enough to go on, yet.

You know, there is a search button here... 

I think everything I ever knew I've already posted here .

Best, M

[javacisnotrecognized]

Bernhard has said a few times (Besides the experiments) that many of the concepts he speaks of do not translate well into writing; a demonstrative video or better yet a knowledgeable teacher are necessary. Since we have Youtube, it is possible to get the former


To sort out "Forearm rotation through a phrase", it's necessary to clarify some other stuff first.

First of all, there is no such thing as forearm rotation - in the sense that the forearm rotates relative to the upper arm, with the upper arm stationary. None of the child prodigies who have never labored over developing technic have ever done anything like it. It is purely a pedagogical invention.


What they actually do is mostly movements of the upper arm and elbow that originate from the shoulder downwards.

Example, for tremolos:

from :34 to :38 the light hits his arms in such a way to highlight the motion, so this is a very good clip.

But it so happens that if you tell a student to rotate their forearm, they will likely do the "right thing" anyway. So this annoying terminology has not fallen out of disuse.

For phrasing, it's still upper arm and forearm motions, but in a very different sort.
Example:

Watch all the arppegios, RH. It really does look alot like she is rotating her forearm, doesn't it? But but that's not really what's going on - look carefully at her elbow and you will see there are several things happening. First of all, her elbow is moving away from her body, out to (Her) right. Secondly, it is also moving away from the keyboard. Then it is moving up and down, and all other kinds of ways depending on exactly what she is doing. The exact way she does this can give the strong impression of forearm rotation.

You can demonstrate this to yourself as follows: Play a note on the piano with any finger but the thumb. Without letting go of it, move your arm as far to the left, right, up & down as you can.If you put a mirror next to the piano, you will see it looks exactly like forearm rotation.

If you try this for phrasing, rather than forearm rotation, it will work. This is what I think bernhard intended.

Secondly, about thumb over/under, I can show you some videos of it, and I can tell you that in "thumb over" the thumb doesn't actually go over the hand, because the name is about as accurate as forearm rotation.

At high speed: 1:22

From high speed to low speed: 4:02 - 4:09

Filmed at high speed, but then slowed down: :15 - 1:03

[cmg]

@ marik:  thanks for your post.  And especially that link to your earlier technique posts.  You have a very holistic approach to technique that is better understood when one simply listens to your performances.  Everything is in that "Fourth Ballade" of yours.  Beauty of tone, singing line, impeccable phrasing that comes from that well balanced relationship your hands have with your entire body.  Very Russian and the way I was trained.  It's very hard to put this approach into words. 

@java:  and thanks for your fine post.  The videos do much to clarify the misunderstanding over Bernhard's use of terms that tend to confuse.  I especially love the Horowitz vid, since it reminds me of a friend who studied at Juilliard with Ania Dorfmann -- he told me she said to him one day, "Horowitz?  I heard him.  He can't play!"

[franzliszt2]

Java....go to a piano....place your thumb over a C and you 5th finger over the C above.....without moving anything, start to rotate the forearm.. you will find that you can play the tremolo with no tension...using a rotating forearm....now if you use this with tiny movements, you can achieve great results. Argerich is clearly rotating when she moves from the left side of the hand to the right.

The forarm rotates, therefore we can use it to our advantage. Tiny rotations of the forearm can make things so much easier....like the opening of ondine. If you have a [erfectly relaxed wrist, that moves up and down slightly, and a small rotation in the forearm, you will have absolute control and never get tense. Of course these motions are so small they can hardly been seen.

[jgallag]

@ marik: I apologize for being lazy. Thanks for you post. I agree with you for the most part, I think. I'm still learning, as I'm sure we all are in our different stages. I'm simply fond of bernhard's techniques for knowing what to do on a day-to-day basis.

[cmg]

Java....go to a piano....place your thumb over a C and you 5th finger over the C above.....without moving anything, start to rotate the forearm.. you will find that you can play the tremolo with no tension...using a rotating forearm....now if you use this with tiny movements, you can achieve great results. Argerich is clearly rotating when she moves from the left side of the hand to the right.

The forarm rotates, therefore we can use it to our advantage. Tiny rotations of the forearm can make things so much easier....like the opening of ondine. If you have a [erfectly relaxed wrist, that moves up and down slightly, and a small rotation in the forearm, you will have absolute control and never get tense. Of course these motions are so small they can hardly been seen.

He's not saying rotation isn't involved, he's simply remarking on an observable anatomical fact:  the forearm is not designed to rotate -- it is ROTATED through the movement of the upper arm.  Put your thumb on C and 5 on the upper C.  The rotation of the forearm is effected by the subtle upper arm movement that translates down to the forearm.

You're both right about rotation, of course.  But java's anatomically right.  You are not.

[ramseytheii]

Bernhard has said a few times (Besides the experiments) that many of the concepts he speaks of do not translate well into writing; a demonstrative video or better yet a knowledgeable teacher are necessary. Since we have Youtube, it is possible to get the former


To sort out "Forearm rotation through a phrase", it's necessary to clarify some other stuff first.

First of all, there is no such thing as forearm rotation - in the sense that the forearm rotates relative to the upper arm, with the upper arm stationary. None of the child prodigies who have never labored over developing technic have ever done anything like it. It is purely a pedagogical invention.


What they actually do is mostly movements of the upper arm and elbow that originate from the shoulder downwards.

Example, for tremolos:

from :34 to :38 the light hits his arms in such a way to highlight the motion, so this is a very good clip.

But it so happens that if you tell a student to rotate their forearm, they will likely do the "right thing" anyway. So this annoying terminology has not fallen out of disuse.

For phrasing, it's still upper arm and forearm motions, but in a very different sort.
Example:

Watch all the arppegios, RH. It really does look alot like she is rotating her forearm, doesn't it? But but that's not really what's going on - look carefully at her elbow and you will see there are several things happening. First of all, her elbow is moving away from her body, out to (Her) right. Secondly, it is also moving away from the keyboard. Then it is moving up and down, and all other kinds of ways depending on exactly what she is doing. The exact way she does this can give the strong impression of forearm rotation.

You can demonstrate this to yourself as follows: Play a note on the piano with any finger but the thumb. Without letting go of it, move your arm as far to the left, right, up & down as you can.If you put a mirror next to the piano, you will see it looks exactly like forearm rotation.

If you try this for phrasing, rather than forearm rotation, it will work. This is what I think bernhard intended.

Secondly, about thumb over/under, I can show you some videos of it, and I can tell you that in "thumb over" the thumb doesn't actually go over the hand, because the name is about as accurate as forearm rotation.

At high speed: 1:22

From high speed to low speed: 4:02 - 4:09

Filmed at high speed, but then slowed down: :15 - 1:03

Wonderful post!  in fact I feel vindicated, because in another thread earlier on, people argued that the elbow was useless in piano playing.  I commented that actually it does so much, and the image I gave was the elbow moving in clockwise and counter-clockwise directions.  As is clear from this post, it is a very important step in the process of playing piano.

Walter Ramsey

[javacisnotrecognized]

franzliszt2: If you really can play a tremolo like that -- with the forearm ROTATING RELATIVE TO THE UPPER ARM AND THE UPPER ARM MOTIONLESS -- then I would like you to please make a video of this and send it to me. It would be the first counterexample to this theory that I have come across.

[thalbergmad]

with the forearm ROTATING RELATIVE TO THE UPPER ARM AND THE UPPER ARM MOTIONLESS

The same method can be used for drinking beer, but like everything it takes practise.

Thal

PS Hic

[cmg]

Wonderful post!  in fact I feel vindicated, because in another thread earlier on, people argued that the elbow was useless in piano playing.  I commented that actually it does so much, and the image I gave was the elbow moving in clockwise and counter-clockwise directions.  As is clear from this post, it is a very important step in the process of playing piano.

Walter Ramsey

Walter, you never needed vindication -- you were correct all along.  Still, victory is sweet, so go have a beer with thal.

[javacisnotrecognized]

The same method can be used for drinking beer, but like everything it takes practise.

Thal

PS Hic

It is really freaky convenient that you mention that.

Experiment: Fill up a glass of water, and then pour it into the sink.

Try this with both your left and your right hand.

Now try this again, but as you turn the glass upside down, watch your elbow.