What is Art?

[iroveashe]

«Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music and literature.»

But Wikipedia doesn't define what Art is, neither do I or you. I'm not looking for things like "Art is an expression of our souls". To know what Art means we should take a look at history; the firsts forms of art were entirely functional, the purpose of it being communication or praising things such as fertility represented in sculptures of female figures. School teaches us things, mostly facts in a very categorized and labeled way, which is completely wrong, since everything is related; therefore art will be a consequence of society, location, the circumstances surrounding the artist, previous Art and its use of it, etc.; and vice-versa, the individuals of a society will be influenced by the art to which they're exposed. A very clear example of this is violence in art, like video games such as GTA where you can kill pedestrians just for the fun of it, or rap music talking about stealing, drugs, sex and anarchy; too often society blames a song for people doing what's said in that song, when it's actually the other way around, the song is a reflection of what's going on. And Art is not only influenced by social status but also of course by other art; I think it's no coincidence that in a world where the catchiest, most simple and commercial tune gets tons of money and popularity with such low elaboration, modern classical composers write music as un-catchy as possible, with no recognizable melody almost like trying to differentiate itself from its unwanted sister as Salvador Dalí from his dead brother.

So it is my opinion that Art is not simply an expression but a response, and not of ourselves but of our societies, through ourselves.

Also I'm against that idea of "museum art", or that it should be just for a very selected group of people. But at the same time that raises another interesting question: "what is not Art?". In a world where almost literally anyone at all who writes a poem can be heard and read by thousands of thousands of people in an instant, and at the same time new innovative ways of expression are drowned under this huge sea of information, how can we tell apart the good, the significant Art from the poor, sometimes popular and shocking but instantaneous art? The only real judge of this is time, but we can try to dissect thing trying to find what's meaningful and what's mindless entertainment. To me the difference between a Britney Spears song and a Beethoven Symphony is so vast, so abysmal that I'm ashamed of even putting them both under the same category as "music", let alone comparing them in this sentence; and the reason for this is not personal preference, and it's something I'm %100 sure. Why? Because I used to listen to Britney Spears, so I've been in both sides of the coin. Yet there was a time when Beethoven was the equivalent of a rock star back when rock music started, and the public wasn't full of geniuses who could appreciate it better than anyone could if they'd just sit and listen; so it's not a matter of people being stupid, it's just people being too lazy to think, they want to let everyone do their thinking for them and listen/watch to what's on the top of the charts. Basically the masses are a victim of their times. What happened with people like DaVinci? Don't they exist anymore? Or are they just not known because the lights are on charismatic and superficial idols? What's stopping me or you to be a genius? Why do we limit ourselves to one area, rather than being musicians, astronomers, physicists and psychologists at the same time?

I'm 20, I didn't finish school, I'm not studying anything 'officially' and I only had a job for 2 days in my life; yet for some reason people keep telling me I have potential, even the smartest person I've met told me that (an old woman who used to be a concert pianist, she was Martha Argerich's friend in her childhood and a very wise person). Well I think everyone has lots of potential, anyone can do anything they want, they just don't know it, or they believe they can't. Most people have their mind on one thing: surviving, they don't care about too many things rather than their own and their families' well being, and most things they do are done with the purpose of getting money, and the rest of the things they do are seen as recreation, an escape from "real life", from stress, schedules, bosses, etc. To me it's the other way around, Art is what real life is, or at least that's how I think it should be; because Art is for the soul as necessary as eating is for the body. You won't die for lack of Art but it'll certainly affect you in a negative way, it's a matter of balance and most people are not aware of that.

I started this thread with one question, but I want to end with another: What can we, what can you do to unleash your true potential, and to make others do the same? I re-wrote this thread in my head half a dozen times a few hours ago while I was taking a shower and I thought by the time I got to the computer I'd get distracted, yet I'm typing it anyways, even though it's too long for most people. If you've been brave enough to read this far through this wall of words that may or may not be pointless, chances are after finishing you'll go back to MSN and chat like always, or go to YouTube and watch a video about a dog who says "I love my mama". Well, don't. Do something else.

[m19834]

I was thinking about something today as it relates to music and art.  I was thinking about the fact that the world has become infinitely louder since the days of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven.  Even just the way things are built, metals, for example vs. woods.  Modern technology, motors, sirens, tvs, radios, ipods ... etc. etc. etc..  Even if a person is outside in a small town, the sound of some kind of buzz, some kind of electricity is still audible and somehow still felt. 

I think this is immeasurably significant to individuality and civilization in general, but especially significant to art, inspiration and music.  How many people have been deep in a forest where there is nothing for miles upon miles but more forest ?  Where nothing can be heard nor felt but some awesome presence, bringing a kind of clarity to thought that somehow makes time stop ?  How many people have lived there for days on end, without the modern conveniences of civilization ?  Without a mirror to tell them what they look like and who they are ?

We as a race can't move backwards, but the significance of something like true silence has not lost its potency and importance.

[go12_3]

Bravo!  Irove!  Your post is awesome and I appreciate your sharing your thoughts on Art.  Art is a form, and it is based upon how we live our lives and it is an expression ourselves, from the  inner core of our beings.  Music, art and literature is  Art, and yet, what we do in our lives and how we feel is an art.  It can destroy us or build us up as a society or mankind.  There is so much being wasted through loud hard core pop music in  which the world listens to so that the classical music gets pushed away.  And yet, classical art, music and literature are the essence of our beings.

Also, there is another Art, that I feel is diminishing.  The Art of Communication.  Here we are in a world of fast paced societies, as we walk around with cell phones(I don't even have one!) unto our ears or being in the Internet and thinking we are truly interacting with someone.  But , in reality, we are not because the art of communicating with  direct face to face is not as prominent now.  People are busy in their lives, rushing here and there.  Not really thinking of anybody nor anything, for that matter.   I'm lucky if I see my friends in three weeks.  What about families?  Do they keep connected everyday?  Do we truly sit down and listen to someone and visit and care about that person in our lives? 

Art is about ourselves, and how we project ourselves to others around us.  It is slowing down and enjoy what we do in our lives.  It's not about just the audio and visual things we hear and see,  it is mostly on how we are and will become in our lives. 

[thalbergmad]

I was thinking about the fact that the world has become infinitely louder since the days of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven.

Anyone who has been to a Motohead concert would agree with this.

I think that you only appreciate just how loud some parts of the World are, when you visit somewhere where there is little sound.

Last year i spent 2 weeks on a very remote Scottish Island and the silence almost drove me mad. There were no cars or trains and the nearest house was over a mile away. I ended up just shouting to myself to create some sound.

Thal

[db05]

This thread reminds me of a lyric, which I shall quote here for everyone. Added emphasis in case you don't want to read it all.


Thursday - Where the Circle Ends

Mountain ranges
Morning red-bathed ridges
Stab up at the coming blue horizon
Grey slides loosely off rooftops
Lands on the incandescent ground and dies
A flock of little men touch down on the surface of the porchlight
Dawn's footsoldiers return
To march the twilight across the faces
Skylights ignite and explode
Scattering shards of April around the room
No one even lives here
We're too busy crashing our cars every morning at the same house
Paving the same roads
Unwilling to walk them
And even when we extend ourselves, its only to be included
In a world that's standing still
And so often we don't struggle to improve conditions
We struggle for the right to say "we improved conditions"
And so often we form communities
Only to use them as exclusionary devices
And we forget that somewhere man is beside himself with grief
And somewhere people are calling for teachers
And no one's answering
Somwhere a man stands, walks across the room, and breaks his nose on the door
And somewhere these people are keeping records
And writing a book
For now we can call it "The Book About the Basic Flaw
Or "The Book About the Letter "A"
Or "Any Title That a Book About a Man That No One Cares About Might Have"
And as we turn the pages we call out the sounds of nothing
The sounds of a vanishing alphabet
Standing here waiting


irove, I am 20 myself and dropped out of college... I get called intelligent a lot, and it has gotten to my head, it's sickening. It doesn't mean anything about me, only tells me that people are degrading themselves by comparing themselves to me.

I don't see the point in being against any art, like museum art or mainstream pop music. Art is but the reflection of what happens in the world, outside or in. Everything for me is art, whether I like it or not, because it means something. "Bad" or shallow art means that people in general have become shallow. So the problem is not in art, but in society as a whole. To make "better" art, we will have to change history and restructure society.

There are many things we can do in the course of unleashing our potential. But I believe the most important, first step is to look farther and deeper beyond appearances.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

If my memory is correct - Malraux, talking to Cziffra: "the means by which Form becomes Style".

I think an elegant definition, though perhaps not what the original poster was looking for.

"So it is my opinion that Art is not simply an expression but a response, and not of ourselves but of our societies, through ourselves. " I would agree with most of that, though I'm not sure about the response being of our societies rather than of ourselves.

[lostinidlewonder]

Art allows you to try to express the unexpressible.

Art is universal, everyone can understand it, you don't need to learn the language. It can be appreciated on many levels.

Art makes us think about our life and the world around us.

Art is usually a snapshot, a window, a frozen moment.

The human loves to try and gain immortality through their art even though we know it will pass away and be forgotten.

[alessandro]

I think that you only appreciate just how loud some parts of the World are, when you visit somewhere where there is little sound.

Last year i spent 2 weeks on a very remote Scottish Island and the silence almost drove me mad. There were no cars or trains and the nearest house was over a mile away. I ended up just shouting to myself to create some sound.

Thal

I can handle better silence than sound or, worse, noise.  I'm often so glad to come in a silent environment, and I don't like the sound of roaring motorcycles, or people talking loud, cheering crouds, I hate it.  It gives me the creeps.  I live in nature - not alone - together with girfriend and two girls.  At night I hear sometimes an owl, or there are overday the birds singing, especially now.   Inside our roof, the empty space between ceiling and roof, there are bats.  So, even if it's rather absolute silence there's often the sound of nature or natural forces.  I like that.  Smashing sunlight in the grass and grand silence and then bzzzzz oh ! a big fat bee.

Worse than silence for me, even if I agree that silence can be violent, is loneliness.   I can not live alone for more than let's say two days.  Than I have to dive into the nearest pub.

But to come on topic.

I would like to hand a few questions myself to you Iroveashe, and I wonder if you have already find some answers to them within yourself.

Are you selfproviding for your drinks and food ? In other words is there drinkable water near you or do you live close to water that you can cook and filter and do there grow fruit and or vegetables to which you have free access ? It is not impossible but probably very tough (or you need luck) to have an art of life.

 

Art is about ourselves, and how we project ourselves to others around us.  It is slowing down and enjoy what we do in our lives.  It's not about just the audio and visual things we hear and see,  it is mostly on how we are and will become in our lives. 

 

I agree with that; Art is what we do with our existence.   Life is given, al the rest is eventually art, but certainly extra.
For me art is also something that has to do with, and I'm not sure you used these words, beauty, feeling...    
"You didn't finish school ?"...   And so what ? Is that a pity or do you regret it ?
I notice the darn typical 'rage-of-the-twenty-year-old' in your post, very romantic.  Don't bother too much about rapmusic nor society.   If people "say" you have potential try to find out if it's a euphemism for "you are a handsome idiot" or just do something.   Potential is absolutely nothing.  It's something like charisma or hope; nice but 'what's next ?'.

"What can we do to 'unleash'" is your beautiful final question.  We can do nothing about it.  Maybe you can, but I can't really.  I could say 'come on man, do something', I could take you by the hand, but if you do nothing, nothing will happen.  I sometimes believe that depending on your character, you're introvert or extravert, with some types of personalities 'things' tend to stay inside and never come out.

So I don't know what you like, but sing along, man, sing and take that pen and that piece of paper and write, write, wrwrwrite and once in a while paint, paint a lot.

Remember N*KE.
Just do it.

Kindly

[term]

What happened with people like DaVinci? Don't they exist anymore? Or are they just not known because the lights are on charismatic and superficial idols? What's stopping me or you to be a genius? Why do we limit ourselves to one area, rather than being musicians, astronomers, physicists and psychologists at the same time?

The inflation of knowledge. You can only be all that if you understand the foundation of all sciences or arts and can derive everything you need to know or do from that. That kind of knowledge is rare, but 'truer'.
Here's a quote you may like^^: https://elise.com/quotes/a/heinlein_-_specialization_is_for_insects.php

I'm 20, I didn't finish school, I'm not studying anything 'officially' and I only had a job for 2 days in my life; yet for some reason people keep telling me I have potential

Same with me, except i'm one year older and have worked 0 days.

[m19834]

Last year i spent 2 weeks on a very remote Scottish Island and the silence almost drove me mad. There were no cars or trains and the nearest house was over a mile away. I ended up just shouting to myself to create some sound.

Thal

Probably you could get used to it, actually.  But, I am curious, what inspired you to spend 2 weeks in those conditions ?

[javacisnotrecognized]

I have, over the months thinking about it, come up with the following explanation

Art has some different basic "elements", that are clearly defined and distinct from eachother. The artist takes these basic elements and is free to arrange and assemble them however he sees fit.

There are (At least) two basic principles by which you arrange the elements to get meaningful results:

Patterns: Anything that is repeated becomes a pattern. If you repeat elements, it becomes a pattern. If you repeat basic combinations of the basic elements, that becomes a different pattern. And you can have patterns made out of smaller patterns, and elements, and so forth.

The grouping prinicple: Things that aren't grouped with anything else, are grouped with eachother. Things that are grouped with eachother will have some basic elements in common.

So you can have patterns of groups of groups of patterns, etc; and all kinds of different ways of combining different things.

Appreciating the art involves unraveling all of this.

The main thing here is that since the brain automatically recognizes patterns and groups; if you can learn to recognize the basic elements, the rest is pretty much automatic.

Obviously; some people are attracted to art or whatever because they attach certain emotions to the patterns, but this would be only seeing a tiny part of the structure. (Although many artists have at one time or another made emotion a centerpiece in the structure)

I saw an article on wikipedia that would be relevant to this; but I can't remember the name. It had pictures of shapes with missing sides (And you would automatically "See" them), and a picture of a cube that can be seen from multiple perspectives, and other things. Think it was about psychology..

[go12_3]

I have, over the months thinking about it, come up with the following explanation

Art has some different basic "elements", that are clearly defined and distinct from eachother. The artist takes these basic elements and is free to arrange and assemble them however he sees fit.

There are (At least) two basic principles by which you arrange the elements to get meaningful results:

Patterns: Anything that is repeated becomes a pattern. If you repeat elements, it becomes a pattern. If you repeat basic combinations of the basic elements, that becomes a different pattern. And you can have patterns made out of smaller patterns, and elements, and so forth.

The grouping prinicple: Things that aren't grouped with anything else, are grouped with eachother. Things that are grouped with eachother will have some basic elements in common.

So you can have patterns of groups of groups of patterns, etc; and all kinds of different ways of combining different things.

Appreciating the art involves unraveling all of this.

The main thing here is that since the brain automatically recognizes patterns and groups; if you can learn to recognize the basic elements, the rest is pretty much automatic.

Obviously; some people are attracted to art or whatever because they attach certain emotions to the patterns, but this would be only seeing a tiny part of the structure. (Although many artists have at one time or another made emotion a centerpiece in the structure)

I saw an article on wikipedia that would be relevant to this; but I can't remember the name. It had pictures of shapes with missing sides (And you would automatically "See" them), and a picture of a cube that can be seen from multiple perspectives, and other things. Think it was about psychology..

about the pictures of shapes , it is in the visual aspect of psychology.

[javacisnotrecognized]

I found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology

[iroveashe]

I was thinking about something today as it relates to music and art.  I was thinking about the fact that the world has become infinitely louder since the days of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven.

Not only louder but faster or busier you could say. Makes me wonder what will happen next, if we (or our children) will really all be connected to nano machine-cellphones 24/7.

I would like to hand a few questions myself to you Iroveashe, and I wonder if you have already find some answers to them within yourself.

Are you selfproviding for your drinks and food ? In other words is there drinkable water near you or do you live close to water that you can cook and filter and do there grow fruit and or vegetables to which you have free access ? It is not impossible but probably very tough (or you need luck) to have an art of life.

Not at all, I don't even like vegetables =P

"You didn't finish school ?"...   And so what ? Is that a pity or do you regret it ?

Not really, but everyone reminds me about it all the time, which bugs me more than not having finished since I barely learned anything there.

I notice the darn typical 'rage-of-the-twenty-year-old' in your post, very romantic.  Don't bother too much about rapmusic nor society.

I'm not mad with rap or pop music, I was trying to point out how 2 types of music may have different styles but it's not only that, they have a completely different purpose from the very beginning, that's why I don't think it's simply a matter of taste.

If people "say" you have potential try to find out if it's a euphemism for "you are a handsome idiot" or just do something.   Potential is absolutely nothing.  It's something like charisma or hope; nice but 'what's next ?'.

It's not an euphemism because I'm not handsome, and that's basically what I was trying to say. When they say I have potential they say I have the capability to do stuff, whatever that's supposed to mean; my dad for example says that since I have 'brains' I can study while he "had to work because his brain wasn't good enough to study". Meh.

[db05]

Art is just a bunch of stones. Sure they can outlive us, but that's exactly the point - they're stones.

*gets stoned*

[iroveashe]

The inflation of knowledge. You can only be all that if you understand the foundation of all sciences or arts and can derive everything you need to know or do from that. That kind of knowledge is rare, but 'truer'.
Here's a quote you may like^^: https://elise.com/quotes/a/heinlein_-_specialization_is_for_insects.php

I love quotes and that one is no exception. And since I love them so much I'll post another one:
"Never have so many people understood so little about so much."
It was said by James Burke in the 70's but it certainly applies now better than ever.

I have, over the months thinking about it, come up with the following explanation

Art has some different basic "elements", that are clearly defined and distinct from eachother. The artist takes these basic elements and is free to arrange and assemble them however he sees fit.

There are (At least) two basic principles by which you arrange the elements to get meaningful results:

Patterns: Anything that is repeated becomes a pattern. If you repeat elements, it becomes a pattern. If you repeat basic combinations of the basic elements, that becomes a different pattern. And you can have patterns made out of smaller patterns, and elements, and so forth.

The grouping prinicple: Things that aren't grouped with anything else, are grouped with eachother. Things that are grouped with eachother will have some basic elements in common.

So you can have patterns of groups of groups of patterns, etc; and all kinds of different ways of combining different things.

Appreciating the art involves unraveling all of this.

The main thing here is that since the brain automatically recognizes patterns and groups; if you can learn to recognize the basic elements, the rest is pretty much automatic.

I get your point but I don't see how that would apply to let's say a Jackson Pollock painting.

[cygnusdei]

What is art, I think is a very difficult question to answer. But is it possible to narrow it down? Would you agree that art:

1. is by definition man-made,
2. reflects human intelligence, and
3. is a product of leisure?

[anne126]

Anything that is beautiful.

That is "pleasing the senses or mind aesthetically".

[frigo]

I think Art is a form of comunication, the best we have. It's with Art that we can say what we want to say in the best way possible. It doesn't have the arrogance of a language, full of its history and development, made of expressions that are not yours. Art is the way we have to comunicate with others about what is deep inside ourselves, using painting, music, some kinds of literature, that free literature that says what the writer wants, and in the endwe can see in the other's eyes that same feeling that makes us cry, or laugh, or miss someone, or being sad, or being in love, and even all of this at the same time. It is ourselves outside society, it's us in solitude, free thinkers proving our existence and how we're separated from animals. It's proving our harmony with Nature, our feelings getting echoes in someone's heart, that shares with us from now on our secret mind in solitude.

[mrba1979]

I think Art is a form of comunication, the best we have.

I think this is the best definition, a forum of communication which can not hold a definitive definition, but can be broken into any number of commodities.

Iroveash,  When people tell you how much potential you have they are expressing politely how they are disappointed in your decision to quit school.  I know this from experience.  I went to college for two years after high school and then dropped out.  Sometimes this is a necessary step in our lives.  I did go back and finish five years later.  You may or may not return to school, but either path you choose will have its challenges.  For me the path of not returning to school made the rest of my education a walk in the park.

[db05]

Iroveash,  When people tell you how much potential you have they are expressing politely how they are disappointed in your decision to quit school.

If so, then it is a case of politeness distorting the outcome from the original intent. There are many ways to interpret being told you have potential. A few are mentioned above. Well whatever the intent was, wouldn't it be much better if they told you outright what they expect? Surely it would avoid some misunderstanding and frustration.

If art is meant to express something, if art is communication, why do people leave them distorted and/ or difficult to understand? Why should it require thinking, sometimes even schooling, just to interpret? I am beginning to think that art is a series of lies. Think about it. People take pains to avoid saying something in simplest terms. Whether in real life on online, but much more so in art.

I think Art is a form of comunication, the best we have.

Yes, it's the best way to lie.

[mrba1979]

If so, then it is a case of politeness distorting the outcome from the original intent. There are many ways to interpret being told you have potential. A few are mentioned above. Well whatever the intent was, wouldn't it be much better if they told you outright what they expect? Surely it would avoid some misunderstanding and frustration.

If art is meant to express something, if art is communication, why do people leave them distorted and/ or difficult to understand? Why should it require thinking, sometimes even schooling, just to interpret? I am beginning to think that art is a series of lies. Think about it. People take pains to avoid saying something in simplest terms. Whether in real life on online, but much more so in art.

Yes, it's the best way to lie.

Db05,  I find you rather myopic, full of yourself, whiny, and plainly irritating to spend time reading.  Most days I just scroll through and ignore anything you have posted.  I have limited time well actually a full life and I do not really find you have any useful substance to say in these forums!

Or

DB05 you have potential.

I apologize for being extreme. I think people who like/love you would rather say the lather, because they want to see the best for you.  To say you have potential is also a way to be encouraging while politely showing disappointment.  It is a simple expression which conveys more appropriately a persons sediments then as above useless rant.

O.K. separate issue:

Db05 are you lying through the poems/lyrics you post here?

[db05]

Db05,  I find you rather myopic, full of yourself, whiny, and plainly irritating to spend time reading.  Most days I just scroll through and ignore anything you have posted.  I have limited time well actually a full life and I do not really find you have any useful substance to say in these forums!

I actually like this better than "You have potential." Or better yet:

F*ck off.

Db05 are you lying through the poems/lyrics you post here?

Yes. I am distorting the truth.

[term]

If art is meant to express something, if art is communication, why do people leave them distorted and/ or difficult to understand?

So you're making rule #1: simplicity of expression? How that?
That's reasonable, but not the only truth out there. What you call distortion, difficult to understand is merely abstraction. Art is not, in any way, more difficult to understand, it just uses different means for expression.

[iroveashe]

If so, then it is a case of politeness distorting the outcome from the original intent. There are many ways to interpret being told you have potential. A few are mentioned above. Well whatever the intent was, wouldn't it be much better if they told you outright what they expect? Surely it would avoid some misunderstanding and frustration.

Actually you're right on this one, since mrba1979 knows no more about me than what I posted, and mainly that people have told me to my face go finish school so it's not a matter of politeness.

As for the second part of your post, it's not that difficult to understand: the way of living used to be much simpler, same with the art back then, society has turn more complex over the centuries, so has art. You say art is difficult to understand, well it's simply a matter of cultures and different ways of thinking, communication works through symbols and previously established concepts; and for that matter, same way society has 'evolved' into a more complex style of living and Art has done the same as well, isn't regular language, words, just as or even more difficult to understand? Do you consider learning a new language easier than analyzing and understanding a painting, a novel or a sonata? And have you ever considered that maybe that so called distortion is actually part of the message, that it's not just the what someone is trying to express, but also how they express it?

[db05]

And have you ever considered that maybe that so called distortion is actually part of the message, that it's not just the what someone is trying to express, but also how they express it?

Interesting. For a while, I had thought of art for art's sake, but the problem with that is a lack of meaning. Then let us assume there is a meaning being expressed. The quality and quantity of distortion must suit the meaning. The only exception that I know of is irony.

[go12_3]

And somewhere along the line, there is the art of mis-understanding and
mis-communication, no matter how the art form---be it a physical or mental
manifestation, can be interpreted differently by one person alone or a society and culture.  And also, there can be a break down of art which is being manifested through music and literature and works of fine art which depends upon individuals who embraces art or not.  How we express ourselves, verbally and non-verbally will always somehow reveal how we are within and that, is an ART of itself. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[db05]

I picked up some old quotes today. I used to collect them and read them often, but soon there were too many, and I got tired of the idea. I found this interesting and possibly relevant:

"I hate beauty because it dries up hearts and pours out inhuman poison for us to drink: oblivion."

"The individual is a passing shadow; the garden, like any work of art, remains. It breathes eternity."

- The Rock Garden

[rc]

it's not just the what someone is trying to express, but also how they express it?

I think this is at the heart of the question.  We've come to a point where anything can be called art.  Check out this guy:

- he doesn't even seem sure of what he's trying to express.  I think he's hoodwinked himself.  But who knows, maybe there's something in it, but the expression is so vague.  If the observer has to supply all the meaning, what has the artist done anyways?

So, I can accept that literally anything can be called art.  Now the question to me is if it has any value.  If it's something that 100% of the population could do, then who cares.  I read an article about an artist creating a machine that craps out food: https://technabob.com/blog/2009/02/04/art-cloaca-no5-machine/ .  It's actually kind of neat, but everybody I know can do it better than this machine, and when we eat food it actually serves a function...  So it doesn't have much value IMO.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who could write a brittney spears song, but it's a rare appearance who is able to write a Beethoven symphony.

I don't buy that everything is subjective.  I believe expressions can be executed well, badly, greatly...  All by it's own idiom.