What is reality?

[polymath]

is it possible you cannot trust what you perceive with five senses? that's why i like this little story.........

One morning Chuang Tzu awoke from his sleep. he told his students, "Last night I dreamt that I was a beautiful butterfly fluttering through the fields. Now I awaken. My question is this; how do I know if I am Chuang Tzu, who dreamt himself a butterfly *, or if I am a butterfly, now dreaming itself Chuang Tzu?"

[birba]

Oh yes!!!  One of the basic tenets of zen.   And lucid dreaming...

[weissenberg2]

reality is what happens in real life when everyone is conscious.

one can never know if they are in reality or not. but generally even if you don't know if it is reality or not there is a reality.

[iroveashe]

I think reality is merely a point of reference, an interpretation of the combination of what our senses tell us, our instincts, common sense, established knowledge and even what other people tell us.

is it possible you cannot trust what you perceive with five senses?

Of course you can't fully trust our senses, but we don't have a choice. My grandfather has Parkinson's disease and it affected his short term memory, so sometimes, 5 minutes after he's had lunch he'll come back asking for lunch. To him he didn't eat, that's his reality, which to outsiders is obviously not. So if his sense of reality is distorted and he doesn't know it, how could we know if ours is?

One morning Chuang Tzu awoke from his sleep. he told his students, "Last night I dreamt that I was a beautiful butterfly fluttering through the fields. Now I awaken. My question is this; how do I know if I am Chuang Tzu, who dreamt himself a butterfly *, or if I am a butterfly, now dreaming itself Chuang Tzu?"

The function that prevents us from confusing the memory or illusion of, for example being a butterfly, with what's actually happening, is not active during REM sleep, making dreams seem as real as anything else. If you haven't, you might want to watch this movie called Waking Life.

[polymath]

Thanks for the link, i will definitely have to watch the entire movie some time

[anne126]

A bundle of perceptions.

[go12_3]

Reality is a state of being, a consciousness, an awareness with your 5 senses, however,
even if one of those senses are gone, there is the reality to deal with on a daily basis, anyhow.  Some people have struggles in dealing with reality, depending upon circumstances, and so we have the tendency to escape reality in order to deal with what is *real* in our lives.  What we say  and do each day is a reality.  Dreams are only our subconsciousness as we sleep, we are not doing anything physically, except for the physiological aspect of our brain.  

best wishes,

g012_3

[polymath]

well that was certainly over exemplified, but yes i think it's easier to sum it up as thus "there is a fine line distinguishing between what's real and what is not", simple as that, but needless to say i thought it was a nice story nonetheless

[giannalinda]

reality is something real

[l. ron hubbard]

reality is something real

Precisely!


To answer the question as simply as possible:

Reality is an abstract notion that is ascribed to something that we deem as genuine and devoid of any forms of artifice.

We cannot in any way, shape or form address reality via the senses, due to the ephemeral nature of said senses.

We cannot in any way, shape or form address reality via logic, as our logic also stems from our senses.

Deducing from the above, we can safely say that we may never know reality.

Questions anyone?

[go12_3]

How can we  *never know reality*  is beyond me.  Truly, our senses would embrace reality and our existence here.  I mean, if we touch the keyboard of a piano and play a piece, is that not a reality to you?  What about seeing the score in front of you?  What about your ears that hear the sounds as you play the piano while your body is consciously sitting on a chair.  I know I live in a real world, I don't think is it made up in my mind.  And never mind going into the antics of the unrealism of things in our brains.   

best wishes,

go12_3

[db05]

What if reality is whatever you choose it to be?
You can affirm that you feel a certain way, for example. What if I affirm that I AM a certain kind of person? Or even a butterfly? I haven't tried being a butterfly though.

I still think reality is what you make of it. It changes depending on your point of view and attitude.

[l. ron hubbard]

How can we  *never know reality*  is beyond me.  Truly, our senses would embrace reality and our existence here.  I mean, if we touch the keyboard of a piano and play a piece, is that not a reality to you?  What about seeing the score in front of you?  What about your ears that hear the sounds as you play the piano while your body is consciously sitting on a chair.  I know I live in a real world, I don't think is it made up in my mind.  And never mind going into the antics of the unrealism of things in our brains.   

best wishes,

go12_3

You can never know reality because you cannot trust your senses. What you do trust is the appearance of things. The appearances change and our perceptions change. The chair that you sat in today is no longer the chair you will see tomorrow. Because the identity of perceptions change, we cannot ascribe an active permanence to them. We often label things as the same even after they have considerably changed. When you change a tire in your car, the car is no longer the same. It is different, yet you still call it "your car." Our senses are deceiving. Can you convince a colorblind person that there are colors he is unaware of? Are you confident that what you don't hear doesn't exist?

Some may argue that because our senses are naturally prone to deception, we may turn to logic. They argue for instance, that it is much easier to reason for the validity of mathematics than for other, less exact things. After all do not all triangles have 3 sides? This approach is wrong however, because we may only reason about triangles since we can see them. Our sense of logic is grounded in our sense of the observable, and if the observable is doubtful, how can we rely on logic?

[go12_3]

To: l. ron hubbard

Alas!  I was hoping you would not go into this in depth here!  Okay, you remind me of someone I used to know in this forum......and he is gone......*sigh*   

Now, about logic, indeed, if we cannot think logically, then there would be no sense in reality of viewing the structure of things through our perception.  If we  perceive what is around us differently then the physical structure of the car, or chair, would not change unless it got smashed to pieces.  That is reality.  Things do not change because of our perception. We know that  things are built out of molecules and atoms but the structure of those atoms are solid unless we burn the car or chair , the appearance would definitely change, those atoms are not going to rebuild that car or chair!  We would have to fix it unless it's totally damaged.  Now, that is real. 

Then we need to take in account of our inner feelings towards the car and chair may change.  What I hear, see, feel, taste and smell is real in my life now.  What about pain in your left foot, or somewhere in your body, is that real?  Would you be making that up in your mind?  That the pain does not exist?  Now I do know about the psychological term for that:  hypochondriac for those who think they are sick but not truly sick.   

Oh, and by the way, while I am typing this, is *real* ,  surely you wouldn't dispute that now.....lol     And, if I am not making sense here,   then THAT is REAL!   

best wishes,

go12_3 

[iroveashe]

That is reality.  Things do not change because of our perception. We know that  things are built out of molecules and atoms but the structure of those atoms are solid unless we burn the car or chair

You may feel a car as a very solid thing, but in fact atoms are mostly made of nothing.

[m19834]

What is reality?

Tastes like Chicken.  That's reality, man.

[go12_3]

You may feel a car as a very solid thing, but in fact atoms are mostly made of nothing.

Then how was the car made???  Atoms are made up of something or that car wouldn't be solid.

[m19834]

Then how was the car made???

With the flavor of chicken.

[db05]

Tastes like Chicken.  That's reality, man.

I disagree. Reality tastes like Snozberries. Try it.

[iroveashe]

With the flavor of chicken.

The flavor of chicken compels you!
The flavor of chicken compels you!
The flavor of chicken compels you!
etc.

Then how was the car made???  Atoms are made up of something or that car wouldn't be solid.

It isn't solid the way we think of, you just feel it as such.

[l. ron hubbard]

Now, about logic, indeed, if we cannot think logically, then there would be no sense in reality of viewing the structure of things through our perception.  If we  perceive what is around us differently then the physical structure of the car, or chair, would not change unless it got smashed to pieces.  That is reality.  Things do not change because of our perception. We know that  things are built out of molecules and atoms but the structure of those atoms are solid unless we burn the car or chair , the appearance would definitely change, those atoms are not going to rebuild that car or chair!  We would have to fix it unless it's totally damaged.  Now, that is real. 
 

I am not sure I am following you here. Are you implying that our impressions are static? Nothing is ever static, even if it appears to be. At the subatomic level, everything changes. In this sense there can never be a fixed reality as that reality is always changing. And no, the structures built aren't really solid. Atoms are mostly occupied by space. The sense of solidity is an illusion.

[go12_3]

[It isn't solid the way we think of, you just feel it as such.

 To irove and l. ron hubbard:    And this may clarify on what I am trying to convey here about reality.......

* Atom:  The smallest particale having the properties of a specific chemical element.
*  Particle:  A minute piece or amount.
*  Element:  That of which anything is a part composed; as in chemistry, one of the substances of which all matter is composed, believed to be formed by particles or forces common to all.
*  Matter:  The substance of which physical objects consist.
*  Substance:  Any particular kind of corporeal matter; material.
*  Corporeal:  Bodily; material.

Now, things are made up of matter which are tangible and real.   Our impressions are not static, it does change.  Some things may appear delusional because of distorted thought processes from the brain.  Things do appear as they are be it a solid mass, liquid, or air.  As I am typing this the keyboard of my laptop which is a solid matter.  It is therefore real to me.  The only illusion is something that deceives the eye or mind; a mistaken perception.  Now, I do not think I have a *mistaken perception* about material matter, unless it decides to change its appearance, like the car and chair in front of my eyes, into a liquid mass.... 

and a good night to you,

go12_3    and I am real, by the way.   

[db05]

Well, an atom is mostly made of empty space!

[iroveashe]

The only illusion is something that deceives the eye or mind; a mistaken perception.  Now, I do not think I have a *mistaken perception* about material matter, unless it decides to change its appearance, like the car and chair in front of my eyes, into a liquid mass.... 

I'd say it's the other way around, the reality we perceive, is in fact a distortion of what we'd like to call reality, because it's highly simplified by our very limited senses and our tendency to label things.

[go12_3]

I'd say it's the other way around, the reality we perceive, is in fact a distortion of what we'd like to call reality, because it's highly simplified by our very limited senses and our tendency to label things.

And to think that my *very limited senses* would be distorted!   lol  Like writing this thread.  Oh, my!  And I hope that *to label things* doesn't pertain of what *limited*  imagination would perceive. 
And may I ask, what *things* are you inferring to?   As I play piano, and hear the sounds of music, then that is a part of my *limited senses*   Then tell me, what  is the human being made of?  Are we not of flesh and bones?  Now isn't that real?  Are you real?  hummm....or are you a part of my *limited senses* and *distortion*?     

db, may I remind you that an atom is the *smallest particle* which is a *minute piece*.  Now does that seem to you *empty space*?   I do not think that an atom is empty.....

best wishes,

go12_3

[polymath]

Tastes like Chicken.  That's reality, man.

now that's the most realistic comment ever stated
lol

[perfect_pitch]

One morning Chuang Tzu awoke from his sleep. he told his students, "Last night I dreamt that I was a beautiful butterfly fluttering through the fields. Now I awaken. My question is this; how do I know if I am Chuang Tzu, who dreamt himself a butterfly *, or if I am a butterfly, now dreaming itself Chuang Tzu?"

Easy - figure out which ones paying the fricking bills! If it's the butterfly - then you got nothing to worry about.

[iroveashe]

And may I ask, what *things* are you inferring to?   As I play piano, and hear the sounds of music, then that is a part of my *limited senses*

When you play one note with the pedal lifted it makes other strings' harmonics resonate. To us that only sounds "fuller", to a dog probably sounds like a full chord or more because their hearing is better than ours.

[go12_3]

When you play one note with the pedal lifted it makes other strings' harmonics resonate. To us that only sounds "fuller", to a dog probably sounds like a full chord or more because their hearing is better than ours.

Well, good the the dog then!   =P