Need Help and Advice buying a Baby Grand

[jryanas]

Buy New or Used?

I really have no clue where to start, but I can give you my budget and what I'm looking for.
Anywho, not to long ago my digital keyboard short circuited on me. It's been a couple
months since I last played the piano. So I'm looking into buying a real piano. Anyways
my budget's about 5-10 k and I'm looking to buy a new or used baby grand that's
at least 5 feet in length. I went to look up Yamaha since I've had a good experience
with thier digital keyboards found out they were about 10-12 k. The sales guy at my
local piano store says Yamaha is good, but the new ones not so(something about them being made in China now, and also having a brighter sound). So if anyone here
can give me some insight about good brands, tone, pitch, quality and overall value
of the pianos I can get at my budget, it would be very much appreciated.

Here's a list of brand's that's I've narrowed my search to.
Yamaha
Boldwin
Steinway
Kawai
Young-Chang
Samick

[weissenberg2]

I would suggest a Kawai

[quantum]

You may wish to look second-hand.  With such a budget higher quality instruments will fall in your range. 

You may not get a Steinway at that price range.  The smallest grand starts somewhere around 35k.  Used ones hold their value because of the name. 

Yamaha or Kawai.  Both make quality pianos that can take a beating.  Choosing between them mostly depends on the sound you want.  I would recommend the Yamaha C series, or Kawai RX series (preferably with M3 action). 

Baldwin.  I like the sound on the concert grands I have played.  Very beefy tone, rumbling bass range.  However can't say the same of the smaller pianos. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I would strongly recommend that you invest in a quality upright than a baby grand. Although if you have 10k to spend, looking around at private sellers would be give the best bargains. The only problem is that it may take a year before you find a good deal, they don't just come up when you want it! When you find a good 2nd hand piano and you really want to purchase it, there is nothing wrong with having a piano technician look at it for you for an appraisal fee if you are not completely sure what to look out for.

[perfect_pitch]

I would suggest a Kawai

I wouldn't...

In 15 years of piano playing and playing on different brands... I'd go for a Yamaha over Kawai any day.

[aslanov]

definitely Kawai.
Shigeru Kawai if you can find one second-hand in your range, those grands are amazing.

[keys60]

If you can, stay away from the Young Chang and the Samick. Pearl River is giving a good value for a Chinese piano although nothing great there. They're adequate.
Steinway will be impossible to find at that price. Sohmer is reliable as well as Knabe and you may be able to find one at that price. Yamaha and Kawai (Shegaru is very expensive) are both consistently good. There are a lot of variables here. Condition. The hammers and action must be in good shape. I would pay a technician to check out an old piano. Strings can rust and go dead, the felt parts in flanges and other places gets compacted, the springs need to be stretched or replaced and the action needs to be regulated, hammers voiced. I'm currently looking at a Yamaha C3, 5 years old for around 11K.
 If you are playing complex pieces that require a faster rebounding key, go for the baby grand. Its a different world than the upright.

[jryanas]

I really appreciate all the advice, thanks. Everywhere I read I keep hearing about getting a technician to check it out. I will probably take that advice since im more likely than not to buy a used.
how much does the average appraisal fee's cost? So far from what I've been told the top 5 brands are

Steinway
Kawai
Baldwin
Samick
Yamaha

by factoring both quality and price.
i'd also appreciate if you guys listed your top 5 brands, for baby grands. so far im leaning more toward Kawai and Samick cause of the cheaper price points. but if anyone could argue otherwise i'd like to hear it. and TBH i'd rather buy another digital keyboard than an upright. it always sounds like im playing the entertainer when i play on a upright. Plus im buying a grand for the look and sexy sound fills up a room with. BTW im only an amatuer player(good enough not to sound awful).

i've played on several steinways before and they are just sexy....too bad every where i go online it's around 15K plus. anyways keep the replies coming

[quantum]

My top 5

Bosendorfer
August Forster
Sauter
Shiguru (or Kawai)
Yamaha


You should get a technician (independent of the store you are buying from) at any rate.  This is a cost saving investment and should not deter you from buying used. 

If you buy new, make sure you play the piano you intend to take home.  Insist on it.  Don't just play the same model and expect to get the same sound from it's sibling.  Pianos can differ a lot within the same make and model. 

[richard black]

You don't say which country you're in, though I'm guessing America since Baldwin pianos don't turn up much anywhere else. But please let us know so we can give more specific advice! (Also makes a big difference to price - £5000 is not the same as $5000 or EUR5000....)

In general, of course, buying second hand works best if you aren't in a hurry - then you can wait for just the right piano to come along. If you possibly can, get something a little bigger than the 5 foot (150cm) size of a real 'baby' grand. 5 foot 6 inches is about where pianos start sounding nice. Don't overlook makes you've never heard of, and don't overlook old pianos either: in either case, it may be fundamentally a very good instrument and if it's been well looked after could be a much better purchase than a 'big name' instrument that's been hammered and/or neglected. If you don't know much about instruments, always get an opinion from a piano technician or an experienced professional player before parting with money.

In most countries in the West, it's a bit of a buyer's market for second hand grand pianos, so with patience and some luck you could do very well.

[jryanas]

I've done more research and testing lately.
Im in Toronto btw, and I have all the space in the world.
The reason I'm sticking to a baby grand. Is cause im an amatuer keyboard player. I hate uprights. And from my research baby grands are good for entry level. Generally from what I've been told is,
1) don't get anything under 5 feet.
2) buy the biggest soundboard piano you can afford.
3) buy brand name for re-sale value.

Yeah I found that steinways and baldwin are too expensive :S
But they are *** awesome to play. I been a couple of show rooms lately.

I've tried the 5'1 Pramberger($8500) new warranty and works
a Yamaha 5'3 G1 $8000, no tax(private sale)
Kawai 5'1 GE-1A, ($10,500) warranty and works
Young-Chang 5'7? i beleive ($11,500) used, warranty and works.
Steinway 5'1 ($15,000) just for fun
Samick 5'0 ($8000) new warranty and works
Samick 5'4 (9,500) new warranty works

tmrw im going to look at
Samick 5'7 ($8000) used warrant and works
Yamaha G2 5'7 (11,500) private sale, used.
RX-1 5'5 ($14,000) just for fun

Pramberger....awful...maybe cause it was in a music store and hasn't been "serviced".
I like the sound of the Yamaha better than the Kawai and Samick,
but pressing the keys seemed a little rigid, it's also 18 years old too. The kawai and the young chang i tried were really fun to play, cause they were easy to press, but that's maybe cause im a keyboard user. they both sounded good to me. and the Samick's were just ok :s not totally impressed, although the samick 5'0 i tried was the floor model, and not the one in the box :S, im a little concerned about that one. Unless you guys know better deals in the Toronto area, Im all ears.

-----
good response, enjoying the feedback keep em coming.


AND YES IM TAKING MY SWEET TIME WITH MY PURCHASE.

------
btw I also upped my range to a little more realistic range
$7-11K

[jryanas]

I wouldn't...

In 15 years of piano playing and playing on different brands... I'd go for a Yamaha over Kawai any day.

When you say a comment like that, do you mind explaining why? so I can get some insight.

[keys60]

Both Kawai and Yamaha are good pianos. The Kawai has plastic (believe me, they don't use the word plastic, more like a high tech polymer) wippens which are not impervious to moisture. That's a plus, however, the felt bushings are which means the plastic will not expand to compensate for the wear of the felt. Kawais tend to have a lighter faster action. Many jazz musicians love them for that. Yamahas feel heavier yet the rebound of the hammers are impeccable. I personally like the Yamaha C series better than the RX1 and the Shegaru Kawai better than both. The Shegaru is REALLY pricey and hard to find. A G series Yamaha is good for the average home, but if your into playing Henle edition Chopin etc. etc. you want the C series.
Also, when shopping, you have reconditioned (basically regulated, voiced, get everything to work) rebuilt (new strings, hammers, pins, maybe pinblock, regulated, everything works), and restored (everything replaced, all the action parts, strings, pins, block, case refinished, felt parts), so be careful. The 15K Steinway above is more than likely original old parts just made to work. Restored, you could add 10K to that.

 You can get restored Knabes for around 10K. Its a really good piano for the price. No, its not a Steinway, but really holds its own. I'm really surprised nobody mentioned Mason Hamlins, although really close to the Steinway in price. For price, quality and reliability, the Yamaha C is the way to go. Anything under 5'8", you start to lose the sonority of a large piano, but lets face it, most homes are not that big.
One more thing, you can get a C2 Yamaha, 5'8" 10-12 years old for around 12 K, not much more than paying 8-10k for a 5'3" C1. And at that price, mint condition.

[jryanas]

12K? in the Toronto area? 5'8? The Yamaha 8K i'm considering is already 18 years old.

[dr_midi]

My family were in this music mall north of Toronto looking at many Bechsteins,out of your range but saw lots of new Young Chang too. The salesman said they are the selection centre for Canada and I could buy new for a used price. Always best to play the piano and find the best value for you.

[aslanov]

Definitely Kawai. Shigeru if u can find one in ur range.

[turayza]

However amazing Steinways are, their baby grands aren't going to fit into your budget (sadly).
I used to play on a Yamaha upright and I really liked it. I find that many Yamaha's tone is bright, but if you search around for long enough there are very nice ones out there.
I think baby grands sound great...obviously not as good as bigger ones, but my Boston baby grand is nice and responsive and creates a rich sound.
I've purchased my pianos new, but if you have time then you probably want to buy a used one just for the price. n.n
Have you asked the previous owners of the used pianos how much they played? That might factor in to whether or not the piano changes (I don't know about this, but when I arrived at music camp the practice piano had a couple very hard to press keys, but after about ten hours of playing a day for a week the keys were fine).

[jehangircama]

how are bluthner baby grands? has anyone here tried them out? and btw, upto what length do you call a grand a 'baby' grand? is it 5 ft or 5'6'' or something else?

[richard black]

how are bluthner baby grands?

Very, very variable depending on year of manufacture - and of course for the older ones, depending on how they've been looked after. They made some pianos in the 1970s (give or take) that were not worthy of the name, but some pre-World War 2 Blüthners are absolutely marvellous, including the smaller grands. That said, they're quite different in both tone and touch from most other brands so take a bit of getting used to.

I believe the current output (last 15 years or so) is pretty good but don't have much personal experience.

'Baby' grand is not an officially defined term but tends to mean pianos up to about 5 ft.

[jehangircama]

thanks. out of a choice of kawai, yamaha and bluthner (5' ish) which would you recommend?

[rachfan]

I play a Baldwin Model L Artist Grand (6'3") and love the piano.  The cost is less than a comparable size NY Steinway, it's very well built, and sounds great, so it offers a fine value for the money.  For home use they also offer the Model R1 (5'8") and the M1 (5'2").

[richard black]

kawai, yamaha and bluthner

All else being equal, the Blüthner without any hesitation, because I like pianos with character and Kawai and Yamaha have always struck me as pretty uniformly characterless. Though obviously between a really worn-out Blüthner with cracks in the frame and soundboard, and a decent Kawai, the answer might be different.

[jehangircama]

thanks. for me it'll have to be a new model, hard to find decent second hand pianos hereabouts. i heard today that there's a new baby steinway in one shop that's opened, will go check it out for fun (its priced at abt $84,000/- !- wayyyy out of my league)

btw, i also heard that there's a boston baby grand available. i hadn't heard of this name. would you'll know about it?

[rachfan]

Steinway introduced the Boston grands in 1992.  These pianos provided Steinway dealers with a mid-range price option for customers.  Boston pianos are manufactured by Kawai in Japan.  The Kawai pianos are priced less than Bostons, because Kawai dealers give greater discounts than does Steinway on its Boston line.  Some of the features on the Boston resemble Steinway while others are the same as a Kawai.  Steinway gives full trade-in value on a Boston toward a Steinway.

[jehangircama]

have you tried a boston out? how does it feel? anything like a steinway or more like a Kawai?

[rachfan]

I've never encountered a Boston in my area, so have never had the opportunity to try one out.

[richard black]

have you tried a boston out? how does it feel? anything like a steinway or more like a Kawai?

Nothing like a Steinway at all, but quite a lot like a Kawai. I'd prefer a Kawai, though, as the quality control seems to me to be better. In my experience, Boston pianos need rather a lot of unexpected maintenance even when they are quite new. I'm not a great fan of their sound or feel even when they are working properly.

[gyzzzmo]

I'd go for a second hand Kawai, Boston, Yamaha or Steinway (if your budget allows).
Second hand because theyre cheaper and because you know theyre good for you: New piano's sometimes change abit in touche and sound. Just make sure they've been treated well by their previous owner.
Wich of these brands you choose entirely depends what you like yourself, so just try them out.

[jehangircama]

ok, thanks... will go and try them out...

[iumonito]

To the original poster:

This is a very good time to buy a piano if you have the money.  Since you are going to take your time, first thing I would do would be to spend a few hundred dollars and get a Williams digital piano to hold me over while I am shopping.  It won't go to waste; they are unexpensive, and when you get your grand, you will be able to play two-piano stuff with your friends.

The cardinal rule of piano buying is that you have to play lots of instruments, but then true love at first touch will come to you when you play an instrument that is right for you.

I have found people usually end up buying something slightly over their price range, so be flexible if you find something you really like.

The price listed by a piano sales person usually is somewhere 50% to 25% greater than the price he or she is willing to sell the piano to you for.  There are very few sale persons/shops that don't do that, and you can tell them apart immediately because they will start with a price that is right for the piano.

That being said, the prices you mentioned are within reason if you mean CAN$.

Make your min on the subject, but I say a grand piano is a piano and an upright is an upright.  Very good uprights are expensive, and if you have the space (as you do) the same money will buy you a very good used grand.

Don't go under 6 feet (180 cm).  I only know two pianos under that size I like (Mason A and Steingraeber 169) and with that money I would get myself a nice Kawai any day.

Between Kawai and Yamaha, it is very much a question of taste.   Kawai tends to be a darker and sweeter sound, Yamaha brighter and clearer.  Both tend to have light actions (Yamaha slightly lighter often due to smaller hammerhead size), although regulation and voicing of the particular piano will have a decisive, very material impact on how particular pianos feel.

I would add to your list Brodmann, and it would be the only brand-new piano made in China I would look at.

I think your budget will get you an instrument you will be very happy with for years, so don't loose your patience and wait for love before pulling the trigger.

From Toronto, I would recommend you get in contact with Jim Laabs and with the Bluthner folks in Lansing, Michigan.  I love to do piano-shopping tourism, and I have a hunch you will enjoy it too.

Lastly, they are out of your price range, I think, but check out Estonia pianos.  You may like them.

[pianoafficionado]

Go with a Steinway they're the Mercedes Benz of pianos. Baby grands can be as small 5'1" to 5'8" which is great if you have limited space. Steinways are musically unique and extraordinary.

https://www.parkavenuepianos.com

[rachfan]

I owned a "Golden Age" Steinway for a decade.  Was glad to change to a Baldwin.

[quantum]

Personally I would not recommend a Steinway under 6 foot.  I have played many and the price and sound is just not justified.  A model S or M is just no comparison to a model A or B.  I would rather buy a large Yamaha or Kawai with the money I would spend on a small Steinway.  

As for Boston.  My experience has been at first impression you are greeted with big sound for what seems like a smaller size piano.  I think I've enjoyed hearing them more than playing them.  I've examined a few, and started to notice some unevenness in touch response the more I played.  The big impressive bass may mask the ability for ease of singing in the Soprano register.  There were times when I felt a singing RH melody was too much of a chore to pound out over a soft accompaniment.