help with liebestraum

[njalli]

how should i practise the jumps in both hands to get them perfect?

[aslanov]

i guess the obvious answer is how you would practice any jump. VERY slowly. VERY very slowly.
Also, if your going to pedal this passage i suggest using half-dampening, or half-pedaling if u can, i imagine pedaling normally would not accentuate the octaves like you'd want them to. I also recently started working on this piece, and am only on page 3 thus far.

[antichrist]

the jump is very easy,i tried ,its not a big deal ,you can take it slow at first

[jgallag]

Block the inner arpeggios into chords. Then, practice the first octaves by themselves, and the rest you want to practice jumping from the chord to the octave. This is not done slowly. There are a couple of pieces before playing the whole jump. First, practice playing the chord and then switching to the proper position for playing an octave (shouldn't be too hard). Play the first but not the second. This is done quickly. Second, practice jumping from the chord to the correct position (guide with the thumb) for the octave, but without the octave shape. Third, practice the full jump without playing the octave, just get your hand into position. Finally, practice the jump. I don't recommend slow practice because, if I assume correctly, you won't be playing it slowly, and while slow playing is good for accuracy, it will not teach you the correct motions to get there on time. After you have done the above procedure, if you are inaccurate (which I doubt, if you practiced it well), you may use slow practice, but the motion is never slow, you just get more time once you get there to position your hand in the octave shape and on the correct keys, but it should be in the area within a split second. Jumps are actually not that hard. It's doing a lot one after the other (I'm thinking Schumann's Paganini from Carnaval, and others) that's the problem.

One other thing: Think an upside down "U" shape for the shape of the jump. The hand comes up, travels horizontally, and then comes down. The hand should never come up high, this is a waste of time. In fact, you don't even have to take your fingers of the keys (the tips may brush them), as long as they don't get caught on the black keys. Staying as close to the keys as possible saves time and increases accuracy. (During the jump. When you have time, lifting the hands can help relieve tension.)

[pianofortepiano]

practice it slower perfectly lots of times and then gradually pick up the pace. Perfect practice makes perfect performance!

I don't recommend slow practice because, if I assume correctly, you won't be playing it slowly, and while slow playing is good for accuracy, it will not teach you the correct motions to get there on time.

I disagree, If you pick up the tempo it works. Then try to practice this section at an appropriate speed with your eyes shut. This is the real test.

[jgallag]

practice it slower perfectly lots of times and then gradually pick up the pace. Perfect practice makes perfect performance!I disagree, If you pick up the tempo it works. Then try to practice this section at an appropriate speed with your eyes shut. This is the real test.

Not to offend you, Sarah, but I must disagree. I used to practice this way. If I'm not mistaken, you said you were 13 and had been playing about 3 years. When I was your age, I had been practicing about 5 years, though I wasn't as serious as I am now. About the end of freshman year in high school, it began to sink in that slow play, gradually increasing the tempo, was not the answer. I'm guessing I was different than many of the people on this board though, because they talk as if they play extremely well. I have been plagued by tension for years, and while my teachers were readily available to talk music, not many of them could explain the correct motions to play the piano. Needless to say, I had developed some very bad habits. By the end of high school, I knew that this idea of "slow play, gradually increasing speed", or, as C. C. Chang refers to it, the "intuitive method", was not the answer.

Through a wonderful program called "Dean's Host", I had a half-hour lesson with my now college professor my senior year in high school. She showed me a new way to work arpeggios (or, at least, it was to me), that removed all the tension I was experiencing and, surprisingly, increased my accuracy. See, before I met her, I was taught that you always practiced legato, even for high speeds. The passage in question was the left hand of Rachmaninov's Prelude Op. 23, No. 5, the B section. I did whacky things with my elbow, trying to connect all the notes together. She freed me from that, having me play it as if it were two chords and working on the switch in hand position, where the fingers did practically no work at all. Being the correct way to play the passage, it worked like magic. I learned about jumps from her in the fall of my freshman year, playing the Brahms Rhapsody Op. 79, No. 2. I'll be a sophomore this fall.

So the point is, taught the correct way to play piano, I could do all of these seemingly impossible things. Herein lies the problem: The "intuitive method" requires that you must know the correct motions from the beginning and using them at all times. This is fine if you have a good teacher who knows the correct motions, but if you don't, you're screwed. In addition, if you are practicing the correct motions, then you'll find that there are other ways to learn the passage that are much faster. All the intuitive method ensures is that you will be repeating the passage many, many, many times. If you are using the wrong motions, then you are ingraining bad habits many, many, many times. This is not good. In the case of jumps, any arm motion that is slower than that you would use at speed is wrong. It is okay to jump, then pause before actually playing the notes, but the action that shifts the position of the hand must be swift. If you can't move your arm that fast yet, then there is practice to be done, away from the piano, in fact. Slow practice does have uses, but slowly speeding up a piece is not the way to do it. Slow practice can ensure perfection in motion, but only if you know the correct motion first. And when using the correct motion in slow practice, there is no need to slowly speed it up, as you should be able to play it at speed anyway, albeit with one or two flubs that need to be ironed out (This is a small segment, mind you, perhaps a bar or two). Practice at different speeds is to ensure you can play it at those different speeds, so it is quite random (i.e. - you might do a passage at 132 and then 96 and then 116 and then 108 and then even 144, if you can manage it). It's a form of memory work too, but that is for checking note-by-note memory, and is much slower than that mentioned above. Also remember that, yes, you should be able to play the passage with your eyes closed or looking away from the keys, but you must also be able to do it looking at your hands. It may surprise you, but there are people who suddenly lose their memory the instant they glance at the keys.

For further reference on practicing and especially the uses of slow practice, look at C. C. Chang's book (www.pianofundamentals.com) and the posts on this website by the user bernhard. For a fantastic reference on the motions used at the piano, look at Seymour Fink's Mastering Piano Technique or Gyorgy Sandor's On Piano Playing.

[pianofortepiano]

Not to offend you, Sarah, but I must disagree. I used to practice this way. If I'm not mistaken, you said you were 13 and had been playing about 3 years.

I am very serious and have been playing for 6 years. I am doing my diploma and know what i'm doing. I find this helpful to play with my eyes shut once i know what i should be doing! Everyone has their own practice methods. I have also got distinction in all my abrsm grades and that way of practice works for me!

[jgallag]

First of all, I was not referring to your method of playing with your eyes shut. It's a fine way to *check* memory. I was referring to the method of beginning slowly and gradually increasing the tempo with a metronome. People talk about it as if it is a panacea, but it can be, in fact, very harmful.

Also, I do not come from the UK. Where I'm from, ABRSM is not very popular. However, we have our own evaluation festival called NYSSMA (New York State Schools Music Association). I played for it last year, Beethoven's Pathetique, first movement, and scored a 100. It was far from a perfect performance, and by the end my arms felt like they would fall off. So you can see my technique was far less than perfect, at least in the rotation department. I also sang for the same festival and scored a 98 because my high notes were not comfortable and came out strained, so they marked off for tone quality and something else (I forgot). But in all the comments they put on those sheets, the judges could not be bothered to give me some way to correct this problem, as I got marked off for the same thing two years in a row (BTW, I was not taking private voice lessons. While my high school teacher was quite good, he was a trumpet major who ended up teaching chorus). I certainly hope in the UK it's a better quality experience, but here in New York it's complete crap and I wouldn't trust such evaluation festivals at all.

I didn't imply that you weren't serious. However, I did imply that you haven't been playing long enough to encounter all of what's out there in the world, and without being open-minded to other ways of doing things you greatly slow your progress. I'm glad your method works for you, but just because something works does not mean it's the best way to do it. You're lucky to have a teacher who can help you so that this method does work for you. For those without a good teacher, it's useless and harmful.

I hope you read my whole post. From your response, I would think you read the part you didn't like and immediately responded. It's fine to voice your disagreement, but even when you disagree with someone it is best to read their whole argument. You might find something in there that you like, or maybe more juicy bits to argue against. 

[yadeehoo]

Keep the rythm and intentionally close your eyes on the hand that makes the wrong notes at full speed. Practice in oblivion of what's happening with this hand at full speed. Be honnest. When you're tired of hearing these wrong notes, your intuition will naturally choose the right ones over the wrong ones

[liszt1022]

You're responding to a question asked five years ago by someone who hasn't signed in to the forum in four years.

[yadeehoo]

You're responding to a question asked five years ago by someone who hasn't signed in to the forum in four years.

It look like I am, indeed. Maybe some other people trying to learn this piece will find it usefull too. Oh, and pracitice the part with both eyes closed actually. The whole piece as well. Fell the piano baby