Chopin's Etude #4 - how difficult is it?

[88keys]

I am planning an (informal) recital in a few months, in which I'll play a selection from the Chopin Etudes, Op. 10.

I've already decided to play #3 (in E), #9 (in Fm) and #12 (the Revolutionary Etude in C minor), and I would also like to play #4 (in C#m) but I'm not sure it is within my current capabilities.

Can anybody give me a rough estimate of how difficult this etude is? Am I correct in assuming that it is easier than it seems when listening to a recording?

About my current technical level: I've already played nearly all the Beethoven Sonatas. Chopin's Revolutionary Etude was relatively easy for me to master, and his Bb Scherzo is at the limits of my current ability.

What do you guys say? Should I go for the C# minor etude, or should I give up now and save myself the frustration?

[Colette]

i think #4 is one of the most comfortable etudes. you're right, recordings trick you into thinking its insanely fast and hard, but actually i find #9 much more difficult, and u are already planning to play it. it definately sounds like its within your grasp---(wow, you've played almost all of the beethoven sonatas!) it's a very fingery etude and if u play lightly and close to the keys, it shouldn't be a problem. it's also one of the easier ones to learn quickly. go for it!

[88keys]

Wow! Thanks!

But I still have one question.

You say it is one of the easier ones to learn quickly. How do you think I should approach this etude?

The usual way I learn a piece, is by playing a small section at a slow tempo and gradually getting it up to tempo. When I'm done, I repeat the same procedure to the next small section and so on until the end of the piece.

Usually this practicing technique gives me good results within a relatively short time. But when applying it to the Op. 10/4 etude, progress is frusturatingly slow. It took me a few hours just to get the first 4 measures correctly, and I am still playing a little too slow!

Since you say it is "easy to learn quickly", I assume you have a better way to approach this etude...

By the way:

There is no need to get impressed by the fact I've played most of Beethoven's Sonatas. I never touched the hardest ones (#30, #31 and of-course the HammerKlavier), and even some of the easier ones still give me trouble (#13, #22, #26 (Les Audieux)). And after all, I have been commiting myself to the Beethoven Sonatas for over 5 years...

[Colette]

i don't want to make it sound like this is an easy piece, because, of course, its a chopin etude, but it's manageable. like almost all of his etudes, #4 has repeated patterns in the left and right hand that once mastered the first time out will flow well throughtout. i would definately learn hands seperately. if you learn hands seperately, not only will you help yourself out with technique and memorization, but your ears will be more attuned to the eveness of sound, and it will be easier to play the theme exactly the same in the right and left hands (same phrasing, speed, etc.) and, as you said, you should learn small sections, but don't try to work measure by measure, work phrase by phrase---slowly, and don't try to get it all up to tempo in one practice session. only try when you know you can play it right very slowly. even if you are under a time constraint it pays to work long and hard on small portions of this piece. besides, even in a few months this etude probably won't sound exactly the way you want it to....chopin etudes are a lifelong investment.
good luck with those beethoven sonatas! they're gorgeous things.

[Diabolos]

Well,

first of all: You know it's quite amazing that you played nearly all of B's Sonatas??

Don't worry about Nr.4 - it takes a while to get comfortable with the right hand passages (and to memorize them), but if you practice it the same way you usually do you should find it quite doable after a few days.

Besides, I wouldn't say that Liszt's Etudes are that difficult; of course, he wrote some tricky pieces that are quite difficult to memorize, but I wouldn't place these pieces on a level above the Chopin etudes; they're too different in their compositional basics.

Regards,


[Just to avoid confusion: there were a post earlier in this thread comparing the difficulty of the Liszt and Chopin etudes but it has now disapeared. /nilsjohan - forum administrator]

[88keys]

Well, I am making slow but steady progress on Op. 10/4. But I'm afraid the the timeframe you've given is terribly optimistic... Those "few days" have already passed, and I'm still in the early stages...

Anyway, I'd like to share with you all an amazing experience I had today regarding this etude:

After endless repetitions of small sections at a time, I just couldn't resist playing it from beginning to end, at the slow tempo I can manage it. The result was absolutely amazing! Usually when you play something very slowly, it looses all of its character, but this didn't happen here: Even at something like quarter=90 (which is about half normal speed), it sounded unexpectedly dramatic  - especially the climax near the end.

Of-course, hearing this music coming out of my own fingers did wonders to my motivation... No matter how long it takes, I'm going to get this etude right.

Now that I got this story of my chest, I have a question:

Why is everyone so amazed by me playing most Beethoven's Sonatas?

I assume it isn't their technical difficulty, as some of the pieces discussed here are much more challenging. Perhaps it is the sheer volume of the music involved - something like 10 hours when played from front to back?

Anyway, I never said how well I've played them...  

[Desperado]

Chopin is never "easy."  NEVER.

the best way to approach Chopin is to master Op. 10 and Op. 25. Combined these are two of the most comprehensive technical and musical studies you can undertake and are almost mandatory preparation before attempting his sonatas and concertos. IF you're going to start learing etudes, you might as well start from the begining, maybe do a set of them for this recital, like the first 4 or five.  learn them in "chunks" and alwasy go back to the ones you know until you can play through an entire opus on after another with the right tempos, MUSICALITY, and control.

my two cents

[88keys]

In theory, a good idea.

But I don't see myself playing Op. 10/1 or Op. 10/2 any time soon.

Op. 10/1 is devilishly difficult. And as of Op. 10/2... My hands always get tired around half way through the piece - a clear indication that I'm playing it the wrong way.

So for the time being I gave up on those two. I don't want to jeapordize the health of my fingers with strain caused by bad technique.

[tosca1]

It is most encouraging to read of so many of you making great efforts with the Études of Chopin.  I have worked on the nos. 1,2, and 4 of Opus 10 for a long time.  I have made most progress on no. 1 using the Cortot edition in translation and working on the various technical exercises to strengthen control of the rh 4th and 5th fingers.  On a good day I can get through it comfortably at a moderate speed (MM 104) but not at the recommended MM 176 which would give the piece its full glittering grandeur.  The no 2 I find more elusive but work on it slowly with  a loose wrist and full arm weight approach.  The no. 4 is possibly the easiest of the three as its shapes lie more comfortably for the hands.  Slow, meticulous practice is the solution  to overcoming its difficulties.  

Thank you all for your interesting, helpful opinions.

Robert.

[jorge]

ok...the etude number 4 is as hard as other etudes of chopin...first you must to read de text...the rythm the sounds...and technically that you are goin to do in each part...you must to learn it in tempo slow...to play all etude without mistakes in tempo lento and in tempo moderato...you must to study it with differents rythms...and a little and a little to play it in other velocity...the musical text are the notes, the rythm, the expressives signes, if it is forte or piano or pianissimo...ok...you must to study running behind the perfection ideal...so is the art...nothing easy...
:o

[trunks]

Hi 88keys,

I know this is a late reply but I'm very new here.
Just curious - why did you not include the Gb (black-keys) etude in your recital?

[anda]

I've already played nearly all the Beethoven Sonatas... and Chopin Bb Scherzo is at the limits of my current ability.

how is this possible?

about chopin #4 - play the passages in 16ths rolling the wrist over the fingers - helps at fast tempo.

[trix]

It's not as hard as it might sound: really getting the tempo prestissimo is the trick and that comes from knowing the fingering intimately;  knowledge that can only be gained thru diligent technical pratice.  I learned it hands apart and slow and it came together quickly.  Don't be afraid of it at all.

[pianodude]

All Chopin etudes are very difficult if one wants to play well.

One guy in this forum who holds a master degree from Juliard posted his playing of Op 10 #4. It sounds horrible!!. You can imagine, someone who has an advanced degree from Julliard still sounds far from good. It means it is extremely difficult to play those etudes at a professional level.
By no means, I am not claiming that I can play this etude well or better than the guy who posted his performance. I just make a point that those etudes are exeedingly difficult to play at a professional level.

[thracozaag]

All Chopin etudes are very difficult if one wants to play well.

One guy in this forum who holds a master degree from Juliard posted his playing of Op 10 #4. It sounds horrible!!. You can imagine, someone who has an advanced degree from Julliard still sounds far from good. It means it is extremely difficult to play those etudes at a professional level.
By no means, I am not claiming that I can play this etude well or better than the guy who posted his performance. I just make a point that those etudes are exeedingly difficult to play at a professional level.

  Horrible, eh?

koji (STSD)

[BoliverAllmon]

  Horrible, eh?

koji (STSD)

not in my eyes.

boliver

[musicsdarkangel]

Op. 10/1 is devilishly difficult. And as of Op. 10/2... My hands always get tired around half way through the piece - a clear indication that I'm playing it the wrong way.

Oh, I bet that you can master op 10 no 1 no problem

I am no where near learning all of the Beethoven sonatas, but I learned op 10 no 1 in 8th grade.  I had the same attitude as you, I thought that it was way too hard for me, but with much slow practice, and relaxation, you can do anything.

I wasn't that good, but I was able to nail that devil at a concert.

I found out that you really don't know how hard a Chopin etude is until you try to master it.

It also varies from pianist to pianist.  The Ocean Etude was much harder for me to master, but eventually, I got it, and now it feels beautiful under my fingers.

I say go for the gold, with focus and dedication, you're unstoppable.

At worst, what can happen?  You playing under tempo?  ...

[shasta]

One guy in this forum who holds a master degree from Juliard posted his playing of Op 10 #4. It sounds horrible!!. You can imagine, someone who has an advanced degree from Julliard still sounds far from good. It means it is extremely difficult to play those etudes at a professional level.
By no means, I am not claiming that I can play this etude well or better than the guy who posted his performance. I just make a point that those etudes are exeedingly difficult to play at a professional level.

Horrible, eh?
koji (STSD)

LMAO.  Rock on, Koji.

By no means, I am not claiming that I can play this etude well or better than the guy who posted his performance.

Nice attempt at a disclaimer, pianodude.  Koji put himself out there - let us hear you do the same!   

[Hmoll]

One guy in this forum who holds a master degree from Juliard posted his playing of Op 10 #4. It sounds horrible!!. 

Good for you!  Don't mince any words here. Forget about all that hype about "ice-water clarity," and "ability to create beautiful transparent textures and evanescent splashes of color," that other people say about that hack who calls himself a pianist. Youan me know the truth.

Uh, Koji, any chance of free tickets to your Yamaha thing in May?

[rohansahai]

Well, i feel the op. 10-4 is one of the most difficult etudes.........the only ones seem more difficult than it are perhaps the op. 10-2 and op. 25-6.  I feel its more difficult than it looks (the notes on the score look so easy!) Its extremely difficult to play it well because the slightest blemish is immediately noticed (unlike say, the winter winds where some errors can go by without anyone noticing). Plus.....it IS tough to get it up to the mm.176 speed , and personally i don't think i can dream about accomplising that in a "few days"........a few weeks or months would be better !
But keep at it.... its a great piece and probably will give you a lot of satisfaction when its done !!

[Kapellmeister27]

could someone show me where koji's recording is?

[pseudopianist]

could someone show me where koji's recording is?

Yes, all of his recordings and videos

[BoliverAllmon]

www.pianosociety.com
www.whitekeys.com

[pianowelsh]

Its quite tricky but if you play most of the Beethoven sonatas and a few of the other etudes then you should definately learn it

[steinwayguy]

I had an extremely difficult time with Op. 10 No. 4. I just never nailed it. Op. 10 No. 1 came much easier to me. Just goes to show, to each his own.

[presto agitato]

All Chopin etudes are very difficult if one wants to play well.

One guy in this forum who holds a master degree from Juliard posted his playing of Op 10 #4. It sounds horrible!!. You can imagine, someone who has an advanced degree from Julliard still sounds far from good. It means it is extremely difficult to play those etudes at a professional level.
By no means, I am not claiming that I can play this etude well or better than the guy who posted his performance. I just make a point that those etudes are exeedingly difficult to play at a professional level.

Well said

[march05]

...On a good day I can get through it comfortably at a moderate speed (MM 104) but not at the recommended MM 176 which would give the piece its full glittering grandeur.

i'm curious to know how you all feel about the tempo indications on chopin's etudes, cos i think they're excessively fast... i've not been able to play any of the fast ones at the required tempo. I've a few recordings of these etudes (one by ashkenazy) and they sound to me slower than the MM written by chopin. btw, was it chopin who wrote those markings or some editor? Maybe those speeds were easier back then when piano actions were lighter? I once tried on a clavichord-like instrument that's very light, and i found it somehow natural to play fast on it's very light keys...  Any thoughts?

Oh, now i remember seeing a video of richter playing op10no4 incredibly fast, maybe that's what MM176 sounds like (not sure). it's on bruno monsaingeon's documentary on him.



- i really wanna get opinions on this one, so i started a new thread on it, pls reply there, thx

[thierry13]

Ashkenazy will allways decrease tempo on hard piece, because for him clarity is the MOST important thing, way more than speed. And he worked 3 years on op.10 no.1 . Chopin's etude tempo indications are ok.

[rebel1ns]

ive been playing it for a couple months...at first its kinda hard to get used to, but after a while once u can play it real fast its very satisfying, even tho theres like 2 places in the piece where i still cant get 100% clean

[ralessi]

Excessively fast?! If you wanna hear excessively fast, listen to Cziffra play it....he picks up the slack from Ashkenazy + Plays it faster than marked by like 5x.  I would be glad to post it if interested.  anyways great piece of music, one of my favorite etudes.  Op 25, #'s 11 and 12 come in 1 and 2nd place! good luck..

[BoliverAllmon]

post it man

[nikodr]

I have been studying mostly the op 10 etudes of chopin for more than a year.Seriously i plan to have a recital to play them all.But with op 10 no 1 and 2 let me give you my story.I practiced it in every possible way.(from sitting high on the bench and playing with curled fingers,to sitting lower on the bench and playing with flat fingers).

I found out that if you have good control of your wrist and forearm and the flesh part of the finger is in contact with the keys then you can have a very good legato,this etude(op 10 no 1) is not that difficult if you manage to learn how to rest your hand and fingers on the keyboard.It is a myth that you need a big hand to play it (the etude is arpegio so with the exception of 1-2 places in the piece every hand can play it if player knows how to relax correctly!).

Sometimes when i study it normaly i stop,let ten minutes pass and study it again this time "flat finger style",i mean i play slowly,and think everytime of the next hit i am going to do(playing with the fleshy part of the finger).At fast tempo it is fantastic.As for the metronomic indication it is 176 the quarter,but after checking the godowsky chopin etudes,godowsky says that 176 cant help the player bring the grand style of that etude,and gives as more logical the metronomic value 160/quarter that the kullak and mikuli edition has.

As for no 2,you have to learn how to let the hand drop naturally with the weight it has in to the keys,drop in the first two semiquavers,raise in the other 2 and so on,once the tempo is faster you play 4 semiquavers with the wrist going down and other 4 with the wrist going up.The trick is not to lower the wrist manually,but do a controlled arm drop,that is to leave the wrist to collapse by each own weight (not completely but mostly).After you master this (slow tempo is a tool that will help),pay attention to the finger action,and to the legato you have to create (chopin says sempre legato,).Caution if you dont allow the wrist to drop by the weight the arm has and you lower it manually,usually within page 2 in the middle you will feel terrible with your hands and feel fatigued and tired

As for no 4, it is not that difficult,if you have played almost all the sonatas of beethoven then i see no reason why you could not play that etude.I agree that the sound you hear on recordings may fake you and make you feel that it is difficult while it is not.So slow practice and you can do everything.

Also i advice you to get the godowsky editions,it has many exercises for chopin etudes,and try to play some of the transcriptions godowsky did on that etudes,after you resume playing the chopin again you will see that you can play them way better.

[ralessi]

how in the hell do i insert a file from my computer? or can i not?! that would be crappy!

Cheers!
Ricky

[thierry13]

You must get a web host. Just google it.

[steinwayguy]

I have been studying mostly the op 10 etudes of chopin for more than a year.Seriously i plan to have a recital to play them all.But with op 10 no 1 and 2 let me give you my story.I practiced it in every possible way.(from sitting high on the bench and playing with curled fingers,to sitting lower on the bench and playing with flat fingers).

I found out that if you have good control of your wrist and forearm and the flesh part of the finger is in contact with the keys then you can have a very good legato,this etude(op 10 no 1) is not that difficult if you manage to learn how to rest your hand and fingers on the keyboard.It is a myth that you need a big hand to play it (the etude is arpegio so with the exception of 1-2 places in the piece every hand can play it if player knows how to relax correctly!).

Sometimes when i study it normaly i stop,let ten minutes pass and study it again this time "flat finger style",i mean i play slowly,and think everytime of the next hit i am going to do(playing with the fleshy part of the finger).At fast tempo it is fantastic.As for the metronomic indication it is 176 the quarter,but after checking the godowsky chopin etudes,godowsky says that 176 cant help the player bring the grand style of that etude,and gives as more logical the metronomic value 160/quarter that the kullak and mikuli edition has.

As for no 2,you have to learn how to let the hand drop naturally with the weight it has in to the keys,drop in the first two semiquavers,raise in the other 2 and so on,once the tempo is faster you play 4 semiquavers with the wrist going down and other 4 with the wrist going up.The trick is not to lower the wrist manually,but do a controlled arm drop,that is to leave the wrist to collapse by each own weight (not completely but mostly).After you master this (slow tempo is a tool that will help),pay attention to the finger action,and to the legato you have to create (chopin says sempre legato,).Caution if you dont allow the wrist to drop by the weight the arm has and you lower it manually,usually within page 2 in the middle you will feel terrible with your hands and feel fatigued and tired

That was totally irrelevant

So slow practice and you can do everything.

And that is wrong.

[Triton LE 76]

hi. i'm new in this forum. i am also practising op. 10.4, and i have gotten to the third page. i have experienced that the most difficult is the left hand. It goes so quick that i can't get it right with the right!
Anybody got a suggestion for getting it better?
 
Joern

[rebel1ns]

^all i can say is that i went through the song over and over again and once your hand gets used to the motions then your left hand will be able to go real fast.although i can never get it flawless, ive able to keep it steady; with pedal it should be okay not perfect, and practice with rhythms..they do help quite a lot...btw im goina play this piece in an audition this saturday

[Triton LE 76]

okay...
Good Luck!

[Triton LE 76]

have you guys seen Sviatoslav Richter playing 10.4?
play it like a god at tempo about 190-200 or something

[steinwayguy]

have you guys seen Sviatoslav Richter playing 10.4?
play it like a god at tempo about 190-200 or something

210 to the quarter 

[Triton LE 76]

Well, that's just great
Makes it even sicker...

[bravuraoctaves]

And that is wrong.

Not totally, slow practice tells you how to play the notes.  It doesn't help you play faster, but it helps you see things that you wouldn't normally see.

Godowsky's exercises that come with the etudes are made for people with bigger hands.

[Triton LE 76]

Do you think you can do it like him?