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how do i finger this? (Read 2661 times)

Offline allchopin

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how do i finger this?
« on: June 23, 2004, 12:42:08 AM »
I haven't gotten any response from this topic in the past, but I'm still stuck on this passage.

In Beethoven's Rage over a lost penny (rondo a capriccio op. 129) I can't figure out how to manuever the RH.   SOS, please!


*note, it's in key of G maj
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline Antnee

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #1 on: June 23, 2004, 01:28:18 AM »
link no work....

-Tony-
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

JK

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #2 on: June 23, 2004, 01:34:27 AM »
I would do 124 on first chord then 5,4,3. Use this same fingering for each group of four notes. Don't try and play it legato as that is virtually impossible. Try and release tension in the wrist between each group of four notes, this is much easier to show than describe!

:)

Offline bernhard

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #3 on: June 23, 2004, 02:12:32 AM »
What seems to be the problem?

In the meantime try this (RH only for the passage in the picture):

1.      Ignore the lower voice (quavers, stems down) and work only on the groups of four semiquavers (there are four groups in the picture). Fingering is 4543 – 4543 – 4543 – 4543. There should be no problem with each group of four semiquavers. It is the change between groups that is tricky. You must displace your hand to the left and land on the 4th finger on the first note of each new group of four semiquavers. Does this make sense?

Let me try again. Start by playing CDCB with fingers 4543. This should be easy. Now, the next note is an A and your whole body will want to play that A with the 2nd finger. You must inhibit this impulse, and instead play the A with the 4th finger. The way to do that is not to reach with the 4th finger for the A since this will be a very awkward passing over the 4th over the 3rd. Instead, leave your 4th finger where it is and use your arm to move the whole hand so that the 4th finger is positioned on the A. The same movement applies to the next groups.

2.      If this is still impossible, break the passage further and work only on the hand displacement, i.e. practise only the notes involved in the displacement: B (3rd finger) to A (4th); G (3rd) to F (4th) and finally E(3rd) to D (4th). Once you can do this smoothly and accurately, put back the other notes. Once you can do this accurately and smoothly put back the lower voice. You will see that the hand displacement you did above automatically places your fingers in the correct position to play the lower voice chords (you may need to calibrate and fine tune the movement).

3.      Although the lower voice is supposed to be held, do not stretch your fingers trying to negotiate it. Instead, use the movement of the hand to release the lower voice. For instance, in the first group of four semiquavers, as you play the chord (4th finger on C), do not try to stretch the fifth finger to reach for the D while holding the DF#. Instead “roll” your hand to the right so that at the same time that the 5th finger hits the D (as a consequence of this hand movement), the DF# is released (as a consequence of the same movement). So one single smooth movement takes care of both, releasing the lower voice and pressing the D with the 5th finger.


4.      Finally add the left hand.

5.      Proceed like that for any similar passages.

I am not sure if that is what you want (maybe you already tried it all). Keep in mind that describing in writing these movements is always misleading, demonstration is always preferable

I hope it helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline allchopin

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #4 on: June 23, 2004, 05:12:55 AM »
Quote
link no work....

Hmm.. no complaints from the rest of the group.  I guess the problem's on your side.

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Don't try and play it legato as that is virtually impossible

See, I'm not so sure that it is.  I have a spectacular recording of Richard Goode raging through this passage and it sounds smooth, as well as quick.  If it's not legatoe, it's extremely close.

Quote

You must displace your hand to the left and land on the 4th finger on the first note of each new group of four semiquavers

I would imagine this would be very non-legato, as releasing each set woud creat a `hiccup` in the sound.  I will try this if I absolutely cannot stretch to reach between each set, to get that legato.  In the recording, I hear no hiatus in between - it's miraculous.  But yes, this does make sense, but I'm not too fond of it...
As for the movement/positioning of the hand, I figure that that will come with slow practice, and hasn't seemed to be a problem.

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Although the lower voice is supposed to be held, do not stretch your fingers trying to negotiate it

Oh, you can bet your bottom dollar I will not be worrying about it.  It's like Bill Cosby's stand up routine where he says if he ever got into a car accident, his mother would be worrying about whether or not he was wearing clean underwear.  The voicing is immaterial as far as I'm concerned (or at least in this leg of the race).

I have one theory concerning the eighth notes.  Perhaps they were meant to be played with the left hand?  From the looks of it, it seems as though the left hand is meant to jump from treble to bass clefs hitting both chords comprised of eighth notes.  I have actually tried this (in all of my glorified desperation) and it's madness, but still a possibility...

Thanks for the help - doesn't mean I couldn't use more!
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline Antnee

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #5 on: June 23, 2004, 05:36:10 AM »
yup it works now... sorry!!

-Tony-
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline xvimbi

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #6 on: June 23, 2004, 07:04:56 AM »
Since Bernhard already gave you good advice, I'll resort to something whacky.

A long time ago, a friend of mine showed me something that looked like a party trick but might come in handy in the  passage you are working on. He was playing scales starting from the other end of the hand!

Imagine you play CBCD in the right hand with fingers 1212, i.e. finger 2 reaches over the thumb. My friend did the same with fingers 4 and 5. He used finger 4 as a pivot, and finger 5 reached under finger 4. In the above example, you would play CDCB with fingers 4545. When you play the second C, your wrist goes up high, the hand rotates, and finger 5 plays the B while dropping the wrist, then you pivot your hand around finger 5 and let the following chord fall into place. That would be legato, but might also aggravate carpal tunnel syndrome.

If that doesn't work, I don't know what would  ;D

Offline janice

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #7 on: June 23, 2004, 07:39:16 AM »
Bernhard, I'm not trying to "pick a fight" with you or anything--lol--but I don't like the way you said to finger this.  But maybe I should keep my mouth shut because this means that I have to come up with a BETTER fingering for this, but I'm too tired--it's late--and I get opinionated and disagreeable when I am tired! LOL  So, I will simply say "I don't like the fingering that you chose. Goodnight!" ;)
Co-president of the Bernhard fan club!

Offline donjuan

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #8 on: June 23, 2004, 08:25:04 AM »
I love Bernhard's shifty fingering! It will be the best at high speed.  This music reminds me of the time I was working on Liszt's Grand Galop Chomatique, and I was stupidly trying to play similar passages with complete legato.  Boy, I could have used advice like this..
I should go back to that piece one day and do it the right way!
donjuan

Offline Hmoll

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 04:38:19 PM »
Quote
Bernhard, I'm not trying to "pick a fight" with you or anything--lol--but I don't like the way you said to finger this.  But maybe I should keep my mouth shut because this means that I have to come up with a BETTER fingering for this, but I'm too tired--it's late--and I get opinionated and disagreeable when I am tired! LOL  So, I will simply say "I don't like the fingering that you chose. Goodnight!" ;)


I'd be interested to know what your fingering would be.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline allchopin

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #10 on: June 24, 2004, 07:10:42 AM »
Quote

Imagine you play CBCD in the right hand with fingers 1212, i.e. finger 2 reaches over the thumb. My friend did the same with fingers 4 and 5. He used finger 4 as a pivot, and finger 5 reached under finger 4. In the above example, you would play CDCB with fingers 4545. When you play the second C, your wrist goes up high, the hand rotates, and finger 5 plays the B while dropping the wrist, then you pivot your hand around finger 5 and let the following chord fall into place.

I only see this as complicating the fingering more than it should be (which is already enough, trust me).  The 3rd finger does seem to fall into place with 4543... why would you want to use only 4 and 5?  I'll have a go at it tomorrow anyhow.

I am beginning to like this left hand leaping idea more and more...
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline janice

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #11 on: June 24, 2004, 07:27:47 AM »
Quote


I'd be interested to know what your fingering would be.


I haven't a clue!!!  I just don't like his!!  Sorry Bernhard, don't take it personally!!;)
Co-president of the Bernhard fan club!

Offline chromatickler

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #12 on: June 24, 2004, 10:39:31 AM »
Quote
I haven't gotten any response from this topic in the past, but I'm still stuck on this passage.

In Beethoven's Rage over a lost penny (rondo a capriccio op. 129) I can't figure out how to manuever the RH.   SOS, please!


*note, it's in key of G maj
I'm surprised ur nick is "allchopin".  ::)

Offline xvimbi

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Re: how the he11 do i finger this?
«Reply #13 on: June 24, 2004, 04:05:43 PM »
Quote

I only see this as complicating the fingering more than it should be (which is already enough, trust me).  The 3rd finger does seem to fall into place with 4543... why would you want to use only 4 and 5?  I'll have a go at it tomorrow anyhow.

It's because you need to be concerned about the following notes if you want to play them legato. If you use 4543, you are stuck with fingers 1 and 2 to play the following chord, which of course is not possible. Moving the hand, as Bernhard pointed out, works perfectly well, but if you don't get it legato (which is impossible because you need to move the hand), you'll need to think about a different solution. In order to get it legato, you must use either finger 4 or 5 on the B. You could use the pedal...

Offline allchopin

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Re: how do i finger this?
«Reply #14 on: June 26, 2004, 07:09:24 AM »
Thanks for the help so far guys and/or gals.  Let's see if you can keep up the good work.  I swear this is the last one.  ;)

Im having almost as much trouble with these two different sections.  What should the optimal fingerings of these be?  Thanks


* note, still in G maj...
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.