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Author Topic: liszt's b minor sonata  V chopins b minor sonata  (Read 3832 times)
matt_haley
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« on: June 23, 2004, 04:02:59 PM »

I HOPE TWO HEAR MANY OPINIONS ON THIS QUESTION -

IT IS SOMETHING I HAD NO ANSWER TO UNTILL RECENTY BUT WHICH IS THE GREATER WORK IN YOUR EYES - LIZST SONATA IN B MINOR   OR
                         CHOPINS SONATA IN BMINOR OP58

i BELEIVE CHOPINS SLIGHTLY EDGES IT, BOTH MIGHT NOT BE WRITTEN IN TYPICAL SONATA FORM BUT THEY ARE MASTER PEICES,  THE ALLEGRO MAESTRO OF THE 1ST MOVEMENT IS RICH AND POWERFUL AND ALSO CAPTURES A NOCTURE WITHIN THE MOVEMENT,A CRACKING SHERZO.A LONG BUT BEAUTIFUL LARGO AND THE FINALE - ONE OF THE GREATEST MOVEMENT IN ANY SONATA PRESTO MA NON TANTO THE HEAVY RUSH OF THEM F SHARP CHORDS GIVE A TASTE OF WHATS TO COME WHAT AN INCREDABILE MOVEMENT  -  THE INTERPRETATION OF EVKENY KISSIN IS FANTASTIC.

I COULD DISECT THE LIZST SONATA BUT IM SURE U ALL HAVE YOUR OWN FEWS.

I BELEIVE THAT CHIOPINS 3RD SONATA IN BMINOR OP58 PERHAPS STAKED A CLAIM TO A BEETHOVENIAN MANTLE THAT EVEN HIS MOST DISTINGUISHED SALON PIECES HAD BBEN POWERLESS TO EARN HIM.   WHAT AN INCREDABILE COMPOSER!!

DO YOU AGREE ?

THANKS ALL     Matt  ( from manchester england- im newish to the forum )
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piano sheet music of Sonata

piano sheet music of Sonata 3
Hmoll
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2004, 04:41:51 PM »

Why are you shouting? Did you lose your hearing at Old Trafford? Wink
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chopin2256
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2004, 08:14:14 PM »

Although I like Lizst's sonata, and this is what got me to explore him further, I only like parts.  I hate his ending, and I think there are many boring parts especially when he uses his chords.  The theme isn't the greatest either.  Although he makes the not so great theme into much better variations, I feel that Liszt RELIES on variations to compose this sonata.  This makes him seem like a good composer, but in a single sonata...all you hear is variations.

Chopin...what can I say.  I dont think any piano composer will ever compare to this guys abilities to write for the piano.  His sonata has awesome themes, he doesn't rely on variations to compose his work, his chord usage is not boring like Liszt's (the beginning of chopin's sonata are a good example), his endings are the best endings ever, and he is 1000 times more emotional then Liszt.  He doesnt compose JUST fast music, so you can hear whats going on, yet, he has presto moments to enforce his fragile moments, or vice versa.  Chopin's works are very magical, unlike Liszt, who just writes to show off.  Chopin could have written Liszt style, he obviously had more talent, and probably would have done a better job...but he actually wanted to "put thought" into his works.  
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bet33
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2004, 01:43:54 AM »

chopin236253685,

you are an idiot for the statements you just made... you should read and listen more into what you have just said. You have proven to not know what you are talking about....

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Allan
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2004, 04:02:13 AM »

In his Sonata, Liszt fully stepped out of the shadow of Chopin (if that was ever the case).  He has the lyricism, vision and even a modernity to the piece that makes it so special.  And the fugue-like section is magnificient.  The ending is quiet---ascending upward.
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thierry13
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2004, 09:41:07 AM »

And saying that chopin was a more talented pianist than list in the virtuosic way is quite stupid. Liszt was the greatest pianist ever. Clara wieck (who were a GREAT pianist),said of liszt that he could make at sight, what her and other great pianists practiced for months and at the end gave nothing. Liszt was named the god of the piano. Chopin was a bit more emotional than liszt, but that's all. The slow parts of the sonata in b minor are just so great and emotional, if interpreted correctly. And the grandioso part is not virtuosic at all, but still so great and has magnificent chords. Same chopin said that he liked his music played by liszt. Liszt was the greatest pianist and will never be equalled. Only one man has equalled him: Alkan, or maybe sorabji(if he was able to play what he composed  Grin). Chopin was a REALLY great piano composer, but the only thing he has more than liszt is the emotion ...
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matt_haley
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2004, 04:20:57 PM »

Chopin was a REALLY great piano composer, but the only thing he has more than liszt is the emotion ...  
        thierry 13

I totally disagree here,okay dont get me wrong lizst is incredabile and i love a lot of his music, liebestraul hungarian rhap no 12 consolation,une bord de un source b minor sonata,they are all amazing works that i am privelaged to have played, but i don not agree he was a better composer than chopin, around his time chopin was a unsung hero,but his works in not only emotion beauty and structure outshadow the works of liszt.  from the many books ive read on lizst he may of been the better pianist but many of his works was virtuoso show off pieces that had an uncanny resemblence among them, take for example the transcendental etudes ive looked at many of them and disected them but there is no inner beauty,similar themes and patterns.  as many critics have wrote not the one would prefer to listen to. his is a absoulute genius,but chopin was the true poet of the piano but neither have been proven or portrayed of reaching the mantle upon which beethoven and bach sit.

although chopin is one of my most loved composers along with beethoven and yes liszt, if i formed a heavy opinion and comparisons of them all,they all fall short to bach- the true god, okay piano was not invented in his time but so many transcriptions from busconi etc show the inner quality and beauty of his music and many of the composers ive mentioned looked up to him ..

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Hmoll
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2004, 06:10:05 PM »

If you ask me, you're comparing the wrong two sonatas. Why not compare the Liszt B minor with the Chopin B flat minor, which is a much better piece.  
What makes the Liszt B minor sonata a better piece than the Chopin B minor is the structural cohesiveness. Chopin did not show a very convincing command of sonata allegro form with the 1st movement of his B minor. It rambles too much, and the exposition is too long. The second and fourth movements are the best ones of this sonata. The Chopin B flat minor, by contrast, is a much tighter work. He says it all in about 17 minutes. It's by far his best sonata. However, Chopin's best music was not his sonatas.

Listz's sonata is probably his greatest work, and might be the greatest piano work of the romantic era, with the exception, maybe of the Schumann Fantasie.

Comparing Chopin and Liszt as composers is interesting. One wrote consistently well, and the other was less consitent, but his greatest works are truly masterpieces.

Comparing Chopin and Liszt as pianists is nonsense. One had a very short career playing in public, and was known to have a limited sound, while the other had a performing career that lasted almost his entire life.
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JK
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2004, 06:38:41 PM »

Comparing two works like this pointless in many repects, they are both great works in their own way. Personally I would much rather play or listen to the chopin, I'm the first to admit that I am not Liszts' biggest fan, although I play his music sometimes I feel that his music is written too much with the purpose of showing off (and dare I say it can sometimes seem to me to be unimaginative, not in the piano writing but musically unimaginative), although I would admit that Chopin is guilty of this too occassionally. This is of course a generalisation and Liszt didn't just write show pieces however I find his melodies very often predictable (again I know Chopin was guilty of this too, it's just my opinion!), nothing wrong with this of course and I know that a lot of people will disagree, however this is the way I feel!

Quote
The Chopin B flat minor, by contrast, is a much tighter work. He says it all in about 17 minutes. It's by far his best sonata. However, Chopin's best music was not his sonatas.


I hate to be a picky idiot but Chopins' 2nd and 3rd sonatas are both about the same in length, around 25mins.

Quote
The second and fourth movements are the best ones of this sonata.


I disagree, what about the 3rd?!! Have you ever heard a more touching Largo!?!
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Hmoll
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2004, 07:29:48 PM »

OK 17 minutes is too short, but 25 minutes os too long. Maybe thats with the repeats in the 1st movement, which you shouldn't take because of the length of the exposition.
Don't care for the 3rd movement of the B minor - just my own preference.

I don't know how you can use the Liszt B minor sonata as an example of him showing off. Far from it. Or, was that an overall comment about his music?

Whatever you think about Liszt, the B minor sonata stands as one of the monuments of piano literature.
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JK
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2004, 07:33:32 PM »

Quote
I don't know how you can use the Liszt B minor sonata as an example of him showing off. Far from it. Or, was that an overall comment about his music?  

Whatever you think about Liszt, the B minor sonata stands as one of the monuments of piano literature.


That was an overall comment about his music, I think his sonata is one of his best works! I agree it is a very significant work, I just have never really liked his music as much as other composers!
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allchopin
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2004, 01:08:54 AM »

Did Liszt even use sonata form?  His B min doesn't exactly have movements - he simply employs a theme that's spread out over 29 minutes.

As for Liszt showing off in the B min, I doubt he was trying to.  For sake of comparison, liszten to the Rhadpsodie Espagnole.  But Chopin did plenty of showing off in his sonata; don't let him off the hook too quickly!  Wink

I think you guys are foolish arguing about who was a better performer, based only on their compositions and your own personal biases.  We do not have any recordings and nobody alive today could back up such claims - wouldn't you be surprised to hear Chopin performing quite weakly on stage?  It's fully possible.

I just have a preference for Liszt's sonata because I listen to Chopin so often that I have almost worn out his directory...

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chopin2256
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 02:38:46 AM »

"chopin236253685,

you are an idiot for the statements you just made... you should read and listen more into what you have just said. You have proven to not know what you are talking about.... "

If your going to attack me, at least explain why you dont agree with my opinions.  The only reason I feel comfortable making such an opinion is because I know those sonatas extremely well, and felt I had enough information to state how I feel.  Tell me why you feel otherwise.



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matt_haley
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2004, 02:55:18 AM »

I completely agree with what JK said as i was also saying in the 4th replt to the topic,lizst somewhat went for the more show off touch that to rather show the beauty and finese of a piece  that many people enjoy.
oh and yea the largo wat a fantastic movement with a lovely beginning close to a nocturne style a change of theme to a very coluorful nature then the 1st theme returns, i played this piece last year,and also had the pleasure of seeing evgeny kissin perform the work years ago.  I wont be touching the presto ma non tanto just yet.
i beleive that you wont gain experience without touching big works but i read many people here in forum claming to learn works such as hung rhap no 2 in 3weeks and performed, sorry but it takes months of hard work and practice to find your own feeling and touch for the peice before you even feel ready....

hmoll i disagree the chopin bflat minor is outshadowed by the b minor.  still an amazing work,an great sherzo  but on a whole does not get close to the b minor. you say the allegro maestro does not flow in a allegro shall we say normal structure but the music that is written can only prove it doesnt have to, a heavy powerful beginning a nocturne thrown in,a gorgeous passage in d major then a somewhat uncany resemblance of a liszt transcendental study,before a repeat of that pattern in an alternate key, it is such a work of art and variations if you like.

also the liszt b minor is a classic example of not a purely sonata based piece, and like JK said it is  an entire piece of 1movement lasting approx 30mins.it is a very good work of his,and i do agree he does not show off his virtuoso talent as in his other works but it is definately not a work I believe would come before the liszt op58 sonata in bminor,  well in most pianists eyes i think ..
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Hmoll
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2004, 04:37:51 PM »

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hmoll i disagree the chopin bflat minor is outshadowed by the b minor.  still an amazing work,an great sherzo  but on a whole does not get close to the b minor. you say the allegro maestro does not flow in a allegro shall we say normal structure but the music that is written can only prove it doesnt have to, a heavy powerful beginning a nocturne thrown in,a gorgeous passage in d major then a somewhat uncany resemblance of a liszt transcendental study,before a repeat of that pattern in an alternate key, it is such a work of art and variations if you like.



Nope, don't agree. The Bflat minor is in a different category from his Bminor. Much more imaginative, and better overall writing.
The B minor - especially the first movement - is forced.
Chopins best writing  was not long forms.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2005, 10:08:09 AM »

How funny I came upon this thread.  Last year I learned the Chopin b minor; right now I am learning the Liszt b minor.  Let's see .....  comparing the two; well, so much has already been said.  Frankly, I think this sort of comparison, generally, is completely pointless.  I do consider the Liszt b minor to be one of his greatest achievements.  And I truly believe until you play it, you cannot fully comprehend its depth.  The Chopin also, I did not understand the b minor sonata until I played it, especially the entire work as a cohesive unit.  It was so abstract to me for so long.  I worked so hard on the first movement to make it make sense; it's still somewhat of a mystery to me -- so many beautiful little melodies clinging to one another, and then again each separate.  The form of the first movement, though, is so brilliantly laid out; but it was torture memorizing the first movement of the Chopin for some reason.

From a performer's view, I would say I am enjoying performing the Liszt much more than the Chopin.
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hodi
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2005, 07:22:55 PM »

i agree that on some liszt's music it's all about virtusosity and not about much about music.
but this sonata is very complex and philosophical and requires a lot of listenings before u get into it.
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steinwayguy
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2005, 03:20:56 AM »

Let's also recognize that Liszt's music is, a large part of the time, played like "just fast notes". That doesn't mean there isn't any music in the piece...
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Nu-Steinway-Player
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2005, 04:38:35 AM »

the last two comments are much appreciated.  I had a lesson on the Liszt today. I am reminded once again its connection to Mefistofele.  It is a much misunderstood work because people are afraid of it.  They do look at it as "typical" liszt, loud and a lot of notes, really long, one big movement -- just misunderstood.  I remember I did not hear this piece for the first time until after undergraduate school -- my first hearing was at a Pogorelich recital in San Francisc -- excellent first hearing.  Then I heard him play it again in Los Angeles.  After that I fell completely in love with the piece, but never thought I could play it.  It's difficulty is also misunderstood.  People think its beyond their grasp.  I am learning it much faster than Gaspard or the Chopin b minor or B flat minor.  I was so proud today because my memory work this week paid off at my lesson.  My professor was really getting onto me about failing to memorize the piece -- first 14 pages this week, through page 19 next week; the middle section the week after; and from the fugue to the end the following.  I haven't been this excited about playing a piece since gaspard.  I think you should all get the score and get a really good recording and sit and analyze.
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lostinidlewonder
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2005, 04:43:37 AM »

Liszts Sonata is talked about a great deal more than chopins, if that is an indication of superiority?
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